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Am I too old - Aussie focus

Old 30th Jun 2009, 03:03
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Am I too old - Aussie focus

hi all

before you ask/point out - yes I've read the perpetual 'am I too old' thread thats in another forum, but I find that this is focused on the UK which doesn't help me, hence I'm doing one here based on where we are (June 2009, not a thread 10 years old). Ok, putting aside the global financial crisis (or "GFC" as people like to refer to it) which is key, I'm pretty much at a point where I need to decide NOW if I want to change careers to learn to fly. All going well, I should have a CPL + ME/CIR next Dec which, I'm hoping, will allow sufficient time for the global economy (and esp the Aussie economy) to improve.

Anyway, my question is - is there any hope for me to make it to the RHS of a jet? I'm looking for feedback from aussie based pilots who have done something similar and esp the attitudes of local airlines. I've read enough on these forums to know its a hard road (for even a 21 y/o) to get up enough hours, etc but I'm definitely committed and my goal is ultimately the LHS of a jet (its a goal).

Please be direct with your responses be it +ve or -ve.

Thanks
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 03:09
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You're never too old mate, although you may have to be content with the left seat of a regional rather than a Jet or a regional Jet.

Like anything, if you persist long enough and sacrifice enough you'll get there. Just be prepared to live a miserable existence for at least the first 3 years
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 03:17
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Mate your never too old. I'm currently learning along side a guy who is in his early fifties and is aiming to get CPL/CIR etc. Just put in the effort and you will get there without an issue
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 03:34
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Green Goblin

Its comments like yours that I'm keen to find out more on.
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 03:56
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33 isn't too old.

Why not have a crack at the Cathay cadetship? Older people than you have got in
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 04:08
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Yes you are never to old however your ability to learn does decrease with age. You are certainly young enough to make it into a jet.

Are you prepared to sacrifice everything just to get into a jet? If you have wife and kids I would suggest the whole GA scene would be somewhat difficult unless you are independently wealthy already.
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 04:09
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Hi Pharoah.

If you've got the patience and fortitude to survive quite a few years in GA and in the lower eschelons of the airline world, then there is nothing to say that you cant get a jet job.
Personally, I got my CPL at 30, did some time in GA, moved to a 19seat turboprop job, then to ATR's for 2 years and then a job flying heavies (2nd officer) for Air NZ at age 37.
Some airlines are finding a problem of having hired similarly aged recruits (ie 25 -30) way in the past, and are now beginning to encounter a problem with all these guys approaching retirement at the same time, therefore causing recruitment stresses (when all this current economic s@#t settles). One method to avoid this in future is to recruit guys and girls of all ages, with an understanding that some may never achieve a widebody command, but can still have a rewarding career with the airline. My employer in the last couple of years has hired in the age range of 23 - 50.
I believe that you're training at a great time. All this rubbish will settle in a year or two, and you'll be well poised.
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 04:46
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Green Goblin

Its comments like yours that I'm keen to find out more on.
Lets have a look at the financial side you can expect:

Year 1

You'll be flying singles charter or flight instructing. Charter expect about 33k driving a 210 if they pay award, or casual hourly rates as a grade 3 flight instructor.

Year 2/3

If you went the charter route you'll have 1000 hours now and be looking for multi engine work and a pay check of 42K if they require you to fly with a MECIR. If you went the instructing route you will be a grade 2 doing your 1 year before being able to upgrade to a grade 1. Multi engine work will be a while off yet, but you're enjoying wearing 2/3 stripes and feeling important in the flying school. A year as a Grade 1 and you be on over 50k looking for a META and clocking some ME time.

Year 3/4

The charter guys will now be looking at turboprop FO slots and the Flight instructor will be happy logging time in a light twin doing advanced training, or possibly a charter IFR job themselves. Expect around 55k as a FO on a Braz/Metro/Dash etc and perhaps a little more if your a Grade 1 with META, although you don't really want piston multi engine time anymore.

Year 4/5

The FO's are now getting commands, they have ATPL requirements and the instructor finally took a paycut to get into a regional as an FO or got lucky and went to an airline. Expect 75-80k as a skipper on a regional or upwards of this on a jet.

Year 5+

You could live quite comfortably on 75-80k as a regional Skipper, you will never drive a Porshe or an M3 if you have a wife and Kids, but you'll have a good lifestyle and be home every night and have a happy Mrs. Or you could get into Airline flying, be away from home for long periods, cheat on your Mrs, suffer Aviation Induced Divorce a couple of times, your airline goes broke, you become redundant and end up living in a ****ehole in the middle east contract flying because a regional turboprop operator won't hire you as they think you'll piss off at the first glimpse of a jet job. You'll retire with lots of money have a Porshe and an M3 and many other expensive toys in the garage that you bought to fill the empty void. Your daughter will have daddy issues working the pole at the local strip joint. Your son knocked his Mrs up when they were 18 and thinks you're the devil and you want to punch your ex wifes new husband who looks like Kevin Rudd. Your Phillipino mail order bride is good in the sack but you get annoyed at the funny looks at the supermarket and deep down you know she'll piss off as soon as you've been married for 3 years.

However you still love flying and are having the time of you life

That enough for you??

Last edited by The Green Goblin; 30th Jun 2009 at 05:04.
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 04:52
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So what's the bad news?
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 05:05
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lol thanks Goblin...exactly what I wanted!
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 05:53
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The_Pharoah - all of the above plus :

Add a few more years on to it. Things might not always go a planned. Eg you might only get 500 hrs in the first 18 months ect.

Hey you might get lucky like some I know that did a grand total of 18 months in ga to RHS of a 737. Or it could take the best part of ten years. Right time right place, contacts and a good work ethic are all the ingredients to a quick route to a jet job. For me I had all except right place at right time on quite a few occasions and thus it took me longer. But in the end i got there. Wouldn't worry about the age thing.
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 08:44
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Hey Green Goblin nice post! I like the way that career looks, err except for the last few years! It takes time to write a post like that, and i appreciated reading it.

As to the "are you to old bit?" Aviation is one of those weird industries where there seems to be no hard and fast rules to progression. It seems to be a combination of who you know, and right place, right time.

Cheers,
Greaser
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 10:16
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Out of curiousity, what is the OPTIMAL age to be entering a job on the heavy metal?
Is there really such a thing? All I keep hearing is that pilot's backgrounds and ages are as varied and random as you could imagine. The key word I keep hearing is perseverance.

For the record Pharoah, I am 27 and just completing my GFPT, so not that much younger than yourself. Go for it!
 
Old 30th Jun 2009, 15:19
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Smile The whole age thing....a perspective from someone in your Boat....

G'day Pharoah!

I'm in exacltly the same position as you- except that I'm 35 and a few weeks off the end of my CPL (so you'll be at the same age by the time you're finishing up too).

I've been given the same advice from people that I know working in the Industry- don't sweat it. For guys like us, the LHS of a QF B747-400 or A380 may not be on the cards......but that's OK. As for me- I simply want to get to the point where I can tell myself that I'm going to work to do something that I really enjoy, and that this is what I chose to do. I feel sorry for those who just "fall" into a job or career and hate what they do. So whether I wind up at the end of my career in the LHS of a 747 or a Dash 8, is not something that concerns me too greatly. That's not to say though that opportunities should be seized upon if it will help you progress. At the end of the day, if I can provide my future Family with a decent existence whilst doing something that I WANT to do- then I'll be a more than happy bloke.

When approaching the likes of Qantas in an interview, you may have to get over the hurdle of a Pshych/ HR person grilling you as to why it took you so long to get to that point with your Flying career. Make sure that:
1. You can demonstrate some decent acheivements personally and professionally that can explain away the extra years compared to some other applicants and;
2. Have a very clear and concise answer prepared as to what your motivations are for wanting to fly for a living, and for flying for QF/ VB or whoever the case may be. It's possible that the perception will be that you're not dedicated to further your career.

For me personally, I've spent those extra years getting my Home paid off (demonstrating a sense of responsibility and common sense), plus setting up and running my own business. I definitely don't see those things as a waste of time, and has allowed me the financial freedom to train most of the week without worrying about money. Also- very importantly- it gives me the ability to be able to earn $33K a year during that first year or two without any problems- plus I'll still have my business ticking over as well. Because we own our Home, we can rent it out if I need to move to where the work is for a while.

Feedback that I've received seems to indicate that some years and possibly a few grey hairs around the Temples may actually HELP you in getting that first job (whether it be Charter or Instructing). The perceived wisdom is that operators like to take on more mature guys for various reasons. This may include life experience/ common sense/ work ethic/ stability/ reliability etc etc.

Also, once this GFC/ recession blows over, operators here in Australia are going to find themselves short of Pilots once again (to all readers: NO- I don't have any affiliations with any Flying Schools!). The current economic situation has only served to place a temporary Band Aid on the lack of Australians who are training to fly for a living. I don't have the stats on hand, but the number of professional Flying qualifications being issued by CASA have been dropping year- on- year for most of this decade. Just take a look around Moorabbin/ Bankstown or the Exam Room when you're sitting some ATPL's, and you'll see what I mean. For example, the number of current Grade 3 Instructors has shrunk dramatically in the last 5 years by more than half.

So here's the plan that I'm following:
1. Get the CPL, ATPL subjects and MECIR or Instructors Rating (me) done now.
2. Get your life/ finances set up so that living on low wages for a year or two won't break you.
3. Be agressive in chasing that twin or IR work when it looks like things are starting to pick up.
4. Be riding the wave when everyone starts recruiting again.
BECAUSE- if you miss the next wave- then age really MIGHT start to become a real barrier.

I wish you the absolute best of luck with it all- it's never easy even in the good times (so I've heard)!

Regards,
Gearup.
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 22:23
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thanks Gearup

thats gotta be one of the best damn posts I've read in a long time (along with Green Goblin's 'snapshot of a pilots life' ).



Pharoah
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 22:57
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Get them subjects (ATPL) out the way BEFORE you start.
Plus any other bit of paper you may have to wave in someones face
Hows the health? Medium height? wiry fit? non smoking? non piss-head?
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Old 30th Jun 2009, 23:07
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Hi Pharoah,

I'm 44 and started flying at 28 after another career and stayed in that career whilst training part-time.

The Green Goblin has it all figured almost exactly and whilst funny, you have to be careful that you don't keep driving yourself towards the jet job at any cost.

I personally started out doing some multi-engine charter with my own business but it cost me a lot and didn't really take off so then got an instructor rating and ended up doing s/e charter which lead to theory instruction and eventually flying. I ended up getting my multi-engine and instrument training approval as a grade 2 which made a huge difference as every hour over 1000 was multi.

Thereafter did some multi charter. regional airline for 5-6 years and now s/o for a major carrier. In one sense I got to where I wanted to go and real proud of what I've accomplished but you will get asked in an interview about how you feel flying alongside a captain who is 10 years younger than you and whilst I always ( and still do feel ) felt that if they're more qualified than I am they'll always have my respect. Thats true but sometimes you can't help feeling that you'll be doing that training when you're 50 but thats what it is.

What I'm saying is that I worked my way up from a junior in one profession and it just feels a bit challenging as you get older because in some respects it would be nice to be at the top of your tree in your mid forties rather than looking down the barrel of another several years before you get the chance ( if ever ). With the benefit of hindsight I'd probably stay as a regional captain and enjoy that life but I wouldn't change from what I'm doing as I still get a thrill to be doing long-haul and be living that lifestyle and its enabled me to live a very different lifestyle than I would as a regional captain.

Look very carefully at every stage and if you like it maybe thats where you want to stay.

I didn't hit the majors til 42 so never give up on the dream. Every moment was a blast for me and still is.

Good luck with it all. There is some good advice in these posts especially from Green Goblin and Gear up.

GUARD
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 00:53
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good to hear this stuff thanks guys
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 01:57
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yep, same. I appreciate all the comments.

btw, Tinpis I got my Class 1 medical last Dec with no problems. That was the first thing I did.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 03:10
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I also had a late start into this but it's been the best thing I ever did.

Gear up and Green Goblin know what they're talking about - great advice there and well done on getting the medical done first, whoever told you that did you a favour (yeah common sense isn't all that common I have found).

There will be great times, and lonely times and rewarding times and not so rewarding times. Best advice I got was to network and try to stay in touch with as many of those you meet along the way as you can. That is the only reason I am where I am. A mate rang up and said - you should apply for this scheme, so I did, got in, and here I am. Had I lost touch with him, probably would never have happened.

I started back in 2002 where the times in aviation were about as bad as they are now or maybe a smidgen better. All I wanted was the RHS in a regional turbo prop. At the time that was what was realistic.

I did benefit from the crazy times of last year so I am now in the RHS of that turbo prop and loving every minute of it. Anything else from here on in is a bonus.

Good idea to get those ATPLs done before going remote. Lots of mates had the hours but no ATPLs so missed the opportunities when they arose, but they are well placed now for an upturn.

About the "flying with a younger captain" question you may get asked. I flew with one the other day - 9 years younger than me - and it was one of the best trips yet. Learnt heaps. Heck, most of the captains are younger than me - even the checkies, but their aviation experience is extensive and I always get a flying lesson of some sort when I am with them and the line captains.

Enjoy the journey Pharaoh, it's a great one overall, you'll make some great friends and have some unique experiences. It's all about the brush strokes on the great masterpiece of life. PM me if you think I can add more.
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