Engine quit late downwind at Bankstown 6/6/09
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Fortunately the cherokee made the field, so he wasn't too far out.. and everything ended well, but this morning, 3 aircraft in the circuit, not too busy, but 2 aircraft were well, reprimanded by the tower for breaching the Sydney zone to the east!! not a bad effort i thought! turning base 4 miles from the strip! first time i have even been Number 3, then asked to turn base from mid downwind and be placed Number 1.
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Freight dog,
3nm to the east of Tyabb puts you out over westernport bay!!! All circuits at tyabb are all out to the east but far enough to avoid the township for the downwind leg. The school there teaches the students to use the greenbelts/clearings for crosswind, base legs and the dams to the north and the Steelmill buildings to the south as turning points. These are approx 1.5nm from the strip centreline. Downwind at tyabb presents you with multiple clear paddocks to put the plane down in if a glide approach was not possible. Hardly compares with GAAP's like YSBK and YMMB where the only option is a glide to the airport or land on a factory roof.
JS
3nm to the east of Tyabb puts you out over westernport bay!!! All circuits at tyabb are all out to the east but far enough to avoid the township for the downwind leg. The school there teaches the students to use the greenbelts/clearings for crosswind, base legs and the dams to the north and the Steelmill buildings to the south as turning points. These are approx 1.5nm from the strip centreline. Downwind at tyabb presents you with multiple clear paddocks to put the plane down in if a glide approach was not possible. Hardly compares with GAAP's like YSBK and YMMB where the only option is a glide to the airport or land on a factory roof.
JS
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The school there teaches the students to use the greenbelts/clearings for crosswind, base legs and the dams to the north and the Steelmill buildings to the south as turning points.
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I agree with you "WIWUT" that it doesn't help when using other airfields. Unfortunately at Tyabb there is a "fly neighbourly aggreement"in place to try and appease the locals who are forever complaining about aircraft flying over there homes. Even though the airport was there long before the buildup of homes this is a kind of compromise and is only suggested not enforced.
Sorry for the thread drift.
JS
Sorry for the thread drift.
JS
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Wow, well done to the pilot
I suppose some would see that as a good result, however he was indeed incredibly lucky not to cartwheel it, and judging by the way it flopped onto the ground, very lucky not to stall/spin before he got there.
So you can say a lot of things about this video, but not that it was a demonstration of skill. It was a nearly out-of-control arrival and the pilot was very, very lucky.
Having said that, I don't know the area so maybe it was the best choice in the circumstances...
I'll just go and put my nomex flight suit on... righto, flame away...
I
Yes and no.
Differing widths and lengths between runways will have even a moderately experienced pilot (including myself) fooled at times. Although, the more exposure to this earlier on the better. Still, I don't think there is anything wrong with using known points for a turn when learning what a high, normal, and low approach look like for a given field.
It's also very easy to say all circuits should be flown within gliding distance, and, without a doubt, this should be used whenever practical. But, there are times when it just ain't the case.
The only issue I see here is the airspeed (or, more importantly, energy) management and steep(ish) turn close to the ground.
Regardless, it was an EXCELLENT outcome!
sn't it better to use a 'picture' of what the runway looks like at the different turn points to judge when to turn.
Differing widths and lengths between runways will have even a moderately experienced pilot (including myself) fooled at times. Although, the more exposure to this earlier on the better. Still, I don't think there is anything wrong with using known points for a turn when learning what a high, normal, and low approach look like for a given field.
It's also very easy to say all circuits should be flown within gliding distance, and, without a doubt, this should be used whenever practical. But, there are times when it just ain't the case.
The only issue I see here is the airspeed (or, more importantly, energy) management and steep(ish) turn close to the ground.
Regardless, it was an EXCELLENT outcome!
remoak: I tend to agree in the sense that he never should have been so far away on downwind that making the field would be an issue at all, especially considering that he would have been near 1500 ft when it quit in the first place. Maybe this will teach a few of the muppets at the airport to stop doing scenic flights of the GAAP boundary when they're supposed to be doing circuits.
However, I think there is room to appreciate a good effort even when you put yourself in the situation through your own poor performance/decision making. Gimly (sp?) glider being an example. He did Ok to fly in between buildings, make a low level turn and impact the ground in a level and nose up attitude.
However, I think there is room to appreciate a good effort even when you put yourself in the situation through your own poor performance/decision making. Gimly (sp?) glider being an example. He did Ok to fly in between buildings, make a low level turn and impact the ground in a level and nose up attitude.
You'd expect the engine failure from the Skyfox operating there with the sewing machine up front, not a good old Lycoming.
Did anyone happen to look in the fuel tanks after the prang?
Regardless, points to the pilot for pulling his nuts out of the fire
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Originally Posted by remoak
It looks to me like a desperate attempt to get back to the field at all costs, resulting in a moderately steep turn after which the aircraft had no airpseed or inertia left and just flopped onto the ground.
Are students no longer taught how to fly a proper visual circuit??? Reference to ground turning-points should only be used in the ab-initio stages IMO to assist the student in developing the sight-picture references they will use in future. What about managing and using the energy inherent in their airframe during the approach? Is that a skill no longer taught???
A couple of years ago, I was SLF on a C-402 flight from Yandicoogina - Newman, operated by a couple of loose units representing a well known WA operator. I started a timer abm the piano-keys on a very wide downwind -where I would have started my approach, but closer in- and it was 4 minutes with flap & gear out before we turned base!!! I was interested to see what it would be because I had frequently seen aircraft disappearing out of sight from the downwind on approach... that flight concluded with the aircraft dragged to the threshold by lots of power in what I assume they thought was a "stabilised" approach, right on the back of L/D curve. If they'd lost a mill anywhere on that approach, VMCA departure would probably have been the immediate consequence.
From what I've seen, that sort of thing appears to be the norm these days. I shudder to think how these "pilots" would manage in a real power-loss incident. They would simply have no idea of how to judge their approach, manage their energy -or get where they're going.
This guy was lucky. No more and no less.
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I don't know about bankstown, but at YSCB students are taught the correct distances for a circuit, both in briefings and in the circuit. The trouble is you rarely actually get to complete a "normal" circuit.. ATC sends us off to woop woop very often. I'm often left praying I don't have to a do a forced landing on an office roof or someone's back yard.
260.
260.
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Before canning the guy, you experts might have considered that you have no idea about the circumstances that lead to him ending up where he did.
They walked away - a good outcome in my book.
They walked away - a good outcome in my book.
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you experts might have considered that you have no idea about the circumstances that lead to him ending up where he did.
Sully (Hudson River A320 guy) made a far better decision. The Bankstown guy was just very lucky.
It does concern me a little that we applaud such decision making as correct on the basis that "he walked away from it". Kinda reminds me of Evil Knievel...
Kinda makes me wonder about the level of instruction over there in the West Island too. Over here in Godzone, it is normally taught that if you aren't absolutely sure that you can comfortably make the field, you put it down somewhere else while you still have enough energy and control to land safely. This guy had already said that he didn't think he could make it back, if I heard the recording correctly, so you have to wonder why he continued.
Maybe one of the locals could shed some light on whether there are any possible alternative landing venues at Bankstown in this situation?
Maybe one of the locals could shed some light on whether there are any possible alternative landing venues at Bankstown in this situation?
For the most part I don't think its fair to say that everyone is being taught to fly ridiculous circuits. The regs state fairly clearly 1/2 - 3/4 of a mile, most instructors I know try to keep somewhere in that vicinity. To have an engine failure and not be able to comfortably make it back to the field, even in a stiff northerly is completely unacceptable.
There isnt a school in YSBK that I know of that actively asks its instructors to fly large circuits to extort more money out of students. Usually when someone is flying an enormous circuit, its a gIII instructor who is at their limit monitoring the student and the aircraft and has lost S.A. Something that happens fairly regularly i'm afraid. That or its a northerly blowing.
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unfortunately when arriving for 29R or Centre, once your on downwind there is really nowhere to go safely in the event of a failure. downwind for 29 R is started at 1500ft and apart from the golf courses to the west of the field, under the approach for 11, the only other option i keep in my mind is a direct turn towards the field and aim to land across all 3 strips, or what remains of the old 18/36 strip.
if you dont make any of those options, you will be landing on a roof, or tearing the plane apart on powerlines as you aim for a narrow backstreet.
if you dont make any of those options, you will be landing on a roof, or tearing the plane apart on powerlines as you aim for a narrow backstreet.
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Rant On.
I love the Monday morning quarterbacks here who are tearing this poor guy apart, who just happened to make a successful forced landing and he and his one or two pax walked away from it.
Yeah all you Chuck Yeagers and Bob Hoovers may have done a better job, but the people are safe. Some on here have a go at this guy and then admit they have never even flown from Bankstown! You say that he should have put it in a more suitable area and don't know the surrounding. Perhaps short of the runway WAS the most suitable area.
Instead of ripping this guy a new one for surviving a forced landing and successfully and safely getting out and maybe the aircraft is even useable again (I don't know I can't tell from the vid), how about a little praise for a job well done and give the guy a break
Yeah there may have been some Luck involved, but the fact he walked away from it and the aircraft is upright is a hell of a lot more that luck. I love it how some people here base their huge knowledge of this incident on two crappy videos on the internet. You should all be ashamed to call yourself fellow aviators with the way you have treated this guy here. Yep I am sure everyone of you would have been able to put this down on a factory roof, or suburban street missing all people, cars, power poles, schools etc and then walked away with the aircraft being largely intact. Good job all you knockers. I wish I was as good as you blokes, a lot of whom have never even been tested in a real situation like this I am sure.
I was always taught you can't argue with success and if this isn't the epitome of a successful forced landing then I don't know what is. It may not have been pretty but last time I looked you son't get points for pretty in a real forced landing.
Rant off. I return you to your regular cr&p tearing someone else a new As&#ole
CB
P.S. Wouldn't know the pilot from a bar of soap in case anyone was thinking it might be me (bit hard as I am in the States at the moment!) or a friend of mine.
I love the Monday morning quarterbacks here who are tearing this poor guy apart, who just happened to make a successful forced landing and he and his one or two pax walked away from it.
Yeah all you Chuck Yeagers and Bob Hoovers may have done a better job, but the people are safe. Some on here have a go at this guy and then admit they have never even flown from Bankstown! You say that he should have put it in a more suitable area and don't know the surrounding. Perhaps short of the runway WAS the most suitable area.
Instead of ripping this guy a new one for surviving a forced landing and successfully and safely getting out and maybe the aircraft is even useable again (I don't know I can't tell from the vid), how about a little praise for a job well done and give the guy a break
Yeah there may have been some Luck involved, but the fact he walked away from it and the aircraft is upright is a hell of a lot more that luck. I love it how some people here base their huge knowledge of this incident on two crappy videos on the internet. You should all be ashamed to call yourself fellow aviators with the way you have treated this guy here. Yep I am sure everyone of you would have been able to put this down on a factory roof, or suburban street missing all people, cars, power poles, schools etc and then walked away with the aircraft being largely intact. Good job all you knockers. I wish I was as good as you blokes, a lot of whom have never even been tested in a real situation like this I am sure.
I was always taught you can't argue with success and if this isn't the epitome of a successful forced landing then I don't know what is. It may not have been pretty but last time I looked you son't get points for pretty in a real forced landing.
Rant off. I return you to your regular cr&p tearing someone else a new As&#ole
CB
P.S. Wouldn't know the pilot from a bar of soap in case anyone was thinking it might be me (bit hard as I am in the States at the moment!) or a friend of mine.
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Already admitted that, but let me ask you a question. Is it better to try and stretch it to get back to the airport, and arrive with only just enough energy left to stall it on to the ground - having been very fortunate to avoid cartwheeling and possibly a stall/spin; or would it be better to recognise that you couldn't get back to the airport safely and put it down somewhere less convenient?
Sully (Hudson River A320 guy) made a far better decision. The Bankstown guy was just very lucky.
Sully (Hudson River A320 guy) made a far better decision. The Bankstown guy was just very lucky.
It is that very last part of the glide where it is incredibly critical to keep the aircraft flying, and not be tempted to raise that nose - yet so many get it wrong trying to stretch the glide or turn too steeply.
That is the reason that so many here are being critical. I don't think anyone is trying to tear him a new one, but it is a pretty good example of how NOT to manage the last part of a forced landing, and people need to recognise that and learn from it.
This guy was VERY lucky. Great job of getting it there, but had the wing dropped a second earlier, or god forbid, the other way, it would have been very messy - and for no good reason.
Use of the flaps at the right moment may have helped, also.
Once again, a great outcome, but not a video to show people as an example of how it should be done.
That is the reason that so many here are being critical. I don't think anyone is trying to tear him a new one, but it is a pretty good example of how NOT to manage the last part of a forced landing, and people need to recognise that and learn from it.
This guy was VERY lucky. Great job of getting it there, but had the wing dropped a second earlier, or god forbid, the other way, it would have been very messy - and for no good reason.
Use of the flaps at the right moment may have helped, also.
Once again, a great outcome, but not a video to show people as an example of how it should be done.
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You admit you have no idea but you're still making assumptions?
And the thinking enunciated by Cloud Basher - that if you get away with it, it is automatically OK - is why people try to do stupid things and end up dead. Good luck with that.