Amelia Earhart PNG Theory
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@Sunfish...
More map detail for you....... I didn't fully answer your questions…
The map is titled "Mevelo B56/2 New Britain" and my full size white copy measures 20" Wide and 22" High. Now, I can see on my colour copy that the fold on the lower margin was made 1" from the edge and if that one inch regime was followed all around the map the "edge folded size would be 18" Wide by 20" High. I can see from by colour copy that the "important letters and numbers" of the pencilled writing would be totally folded under when this was done. The borders of the map on the colour copy are tinted yellow and in parts I can see that when the tape was removed that some of the tint came away from the paper or either the tape pulled off the top of the map paper in small areas.
The colour copy shows that the map was obviously folded vertically in the middle so that would then make the map folded size 9" wide folded "once" Folded then across the height dimension, would make the second fold 10" high. I am therefore going to say if the map was folded to fit an Australian WWII Mapcase that it ended up folded at a size of 9" by 10".
I will leave it to you to find out if that would fit a WWII Mapcase.
How Don came to have it is that he had had the story written up in the "West Australian" newspaper after he had done a little research with a historian from the RAAF, retired Wing Commander James de Bomford. After the newspaper article had appeared, some time later, he was in the City of Perth on a street there and bumped into Len Willoughby who had been the 11th Battalion "D" Company Clerk and Len told Don he had seen the article in the West Australian and had a map from that time when they had been in New Britain, he said, “I am going into hospital shortly but before I do, I will send you the map." Don was also due for a shop visit and when he came out the map was waiting for him, delivered by Post. He looked at it, saw it was from New Britain, folded it back up and put it away with his papers. A Year or so later when I told him I was being sent to Perth, he had nothing to show me of where they had been but the map.
He took the map to a copy-printers where the girl there told him that the machine they had was big enough to print the whole map if he took the tape off. He tried doing it there and then, but decided to take it back home and do it leisurely as the map tended to tear. That's when he discovered the writing on the bottom border when he removed what he called, "old masking tape".
The writing is dated "24/5/45" and at that time the whole Battalion was arranged round TOL Plantation and a group of "D" Company men were waiting for a barge to take them up to the UNAMITKI River where some Japanese Troops had been seen. An Officer approached the group and addressed then with detail of a reply "from the Americans" concerning the find of an engine in the woods..... Someone who had the map must then have written down this detail from a "Reference" made by the Officer to 600 H/P S3H/1 C/N1055 because the letters "ref.” appear just before the "600H/P ...etc", this reference plus other mentions of SITREPS mentioning Patrol "A1" altogether show that the message coming back from "the Americans" is about the find of the engine in the jungle. We do not know who wrote the script but it had to be someone from "D" Company. Why the map would be with them then is another question because maps were controlled and the UNAMITKI is off this particular map as it is further to the East inside JAMMER BAY.
So, that was May in 1945. Active patrolling by the 11th Battalion continued until the Japanese capitulation and until the Battalion was shifted to RABAUL. So, the map continued to be used by the 11th Battalion in the "Mevelo" area. They then did garrison duty in Rabaul, mainly supervision of Japanese troops collecting war machinery and arms. When they were finally told they were going back to Australia, their C.O. told them to burn everything they didn't want and that is when the Company Clerk spotted the map case on the pile of discarded equipment and decided to hook the map as a keepsake.
The Patrol definitely bumped into an engine. W.O Nurse's description of the "ugly rivets" around the nose cowl aperture eliminates the cowl as being from a B-17 as the B-17 had a NACA Cowl with a reverse curve of the metal made by a rubber die press and countersunk head rivets allowing a smooth air entry into the cowling. The Electra had a "rolled edge" strip curved around the opening and riveted on using dome head rivets, with more dome head rivets at the cowl join areas giving a rather "Ugly" appearance as described and plain to see in photos. Lt. Backhouse described seeing the "body" of the plane, in his word.
So it appears that it is "all" there…
More map detail for you....... I didn't fully answer your questions…
The map is titled "Mevelo B56/2 New Britain" and my full size white copy measures 20" Wide and 22" High. Now, I can see on my colour copy that the fold on the lower margin was made 1" from the edge and if that one inch regime was followed all around the map the "edge folded size would be 18" Wide by 20" High. I can see from by colour copy that the "important letters and numbers" of the pencilled writing would be totally folded under when this was done. The borders of the map on the colour copy are tinted yellow and in parts I can see that when the tape was removed that some of the tint came away from the paper or either the tape pulled off the top of the map paper in small areas.
The colour copy shows that the map was obviously folded vertically in the middle so that would then make the map folded size 9" wide folded "once" Folded then across the height dimension, would make the second fold 10" high. I am therefore going to say if the map was folded to fit an Australian WWII Mapcase that it ended up folded at a size of 9" by 10".
I will leave it to you to find out if that would fit a WWII Mapcase.
How Don came to have it is that he had had the story written up in the "West Australian" newspaper after he had done a little research with a historian from the RAAF, retired Wing Commander James de Bomford. After the newspaper article had appeared, some time later, he was in the City of Perth on a street there and bumped into Len Willoughby who had been the 11th Battalion "D" Company Clerk and Len told Don he had seen the article in the West Australian and had a map from that time when they had been in New Britain, he said, “I am going into hospital shortly but before I do, I will send you the map." Don was also due for a shop visit and when he came out the map was waiting for him, delivered by Post. He looked at it, saw it was from New Britain, folded it back up and put it away with his papers. A Year or so later when I told him I was being sent to Perth, he had nothing to show me of where they had been but the map.
He took the map to a copy-printers where the girl there told him that the machine they had was big enough to print the whole map if he took the tape off. He tried doing it there and then, but decided to take it back home and do it leisurely as the map tended to tear. That's when he discovered the writing on the bottom border when he removed what he called, "old masking tape".
The writing is dated "24/5/45" and at that time the whole Battalion was arranged round TOL Plantation and a group of "D" Company men were waiting for a barge to take them up to the UNAMITKI River where some Japanese Troops had been seen. An Officer approached the group and addressed then with detail of a reply "from the Americans" concerning the find of an engine in the woods..... Someone who had the map must then have written down this detail from a "Reference" made by the Officer to 600 H/P S3H/1 C/N1055 because the letters "ref.” appear just before the "600H/P ...etc", this reference plus other mentions of SITREPS mentioning Patrol "A1" altogether show that the message coming back from "the Americans" is about the find of the engine in the jungle. We do not know who wrote the script but it had to be someone from "D" Company. Why the map would be with them then is another question because maps were controlled and the UNAMITKI is off this particular map as it is further to the East inside JAMMER BAY.
So, that was May in 1945. Active patrolling by the 11th Battalion continued until the Japanese capitulation and until the Battalion was shifted to RABAUL. So, the map continued to be used by the 11th Battalion in the "Mevelo" area. They then did garrison duty in Rabaul, mainly supervision of Japanese troops collecting war machinery and arms. When they were finally told they were going back to Australia, their C.O. told them to burn everything they didn't want and that is when the Company Clerk spotted the map case on the pile of discarded equipment and decided to hook the map as a keepsake.
The Patrol definitely bumped into an engine. W.O Nurse's description of the "ugly rivets" around the nose cowl aperture eliminates the cowl as being from a B-17 as the B-17 had a NACA Cowl with a reverse curve of the metal made by a rubber die press and countersunk head rivets allowing a smooth air entry into the cowling. The Electra had a "rolled edge" strip curved around the opening and riveted on using dome head rivets, with more dome head rivets at the cowl join areas giving a rather "Ugly" appearance as described and plain to see in photos. Lt. Backhouse described seeing the "body" of the plane, in his word.
So it appears that it is "all" there…
Last edited by David Billings; 3rd Jun 2018 at 01:38.
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Here you are Sunfish:
https://hatchfive.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/map-case/
There might be a good chance that the Australian Army pattern mapcase followed the British Army design in "The Days of Empire" !
https://hatchfive.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/map-case/
There might be a good chance that the Australian Army pattern mapcase followed the British Army design in "The Days of Empire" !
The Australian Army case I had was a lot cruder. It was a base of something like masonite with a cover of perspex and a canvas flap with two hold down rivets in the lower corners. I may still have it somewhere, will look. Compasses were carried on the belt with a string loop for the neck when navigating.
Hi David. Pilatus B4 glider. ?? Yorkeys Knob ???
We corresponded by email? pprune ?? some years ago when you were asking questions about the prevailing winds in that pacific region.
Northair Surveys had the job to update the aerial photography coverage of Nauru in 1991.for mapping purposes, using our single engine Turbo Lance.
During the long haul TO Nauru from Honiara we checked the GPS thru the altitudes up to 12,000, but since the head wind was 25 to 30 + knots we staged down to 1500' to live with a 10kt headwind. You get to get a good look at an awful lot of water.!
The elapsed time for the flight was 5.5 hours TO. Nauru and after two weeks in that most relaxing place, 4.5 hrs BACK to Honiara.at a higher level.
There we got jumped by the cops and taken away for interview, ..they had just seized an Aztec twin... VH registered ..as we were, for bird smuggling.! But that's another story...and a funny one.
Cockroach sandwiches in the calaboose for the smugglers tho. !
GPS to let us know about the winds saved us a lot of angst...when yr expected elapsed time comes up and out there in the wide Pacific you dont see anything....uh ho !! What now???
We corresponded by email? pprune ?? some years ago when you were asking questions about the prevailing winds in that pacific region.
Northair Surveys had the job to update the aerial photography coverage of Nauru in 1991.for mapping purposes, using our single engine Turbo Lance.
During the long haul TO Nauru from Honiara we checked the GPS thru the altitudes up to 12,000, but since the head wind was 25 to 30 + knots we staged down to 1500' to live with a 10kt headwind. You get to get a good look at an awful lot of water.!
The elapsed time for the flight was 5.5 hours TO. Nauru and after two weeks in that most relaxing place, 4.5 hrs BACK to Honiara.at a higher level.
There we got jumped by the cops and taken away for interview, ..they had just seized an Aztec twin... VH registered ..as we were, for bird smuggling.! But that's another story...and a funny one.
Cockroach sandwiches in the calaboose for the smugglers tho. !
GPS to let us know about the winds saved us a lot of angst...when yr expected elapsed time comes up and out there in the wide Pacific you dont see anything....uh ho !! What now???
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@aroa...
Sorry aroa...my brain is addled, I thought I had met you in Cairns or Mareeba years ago....
25 to 30 + Kts (~29-34.5 mph).....at altitudes to 12000.
Yes, I use your example of wind in that Solomons/Nauru area as an example on the website but would like full detailsl if you don't mind in your recall... What month was it and was that wind a vectored value and if so, where was it coming from?
I must say that is some flight in a single engine aircraft over water... 671 Nm in 5.5 hours averages at 122 Kts where the Turbo Lance is rated at 140Kts Cruise.
Although you are rarely able to get it these days, I'd still like 4 engines especially over water.
Sorry aroa...my brain is addled, I thought I had met you in Cairns or Mareeba years ago....
25 to 30 + Kts (~29-34.5 mph).....at altitudes to 12000.
Yes, I use your example of wind in that Solomons/Nauru area as an example on the website but would like full detailsl if you don't mind in your recall... What month was it and was that wind a vectored value and if so, where was it coming from?
I must say that is some flight in a single engine aircraft over water... 671 Nm in 5.5 hours averages at 122 Kts where the Turbo Lance is rated at 140Kts Cruise.
Although you are rarely able to get it these days, I'd still like 4 engines especially over water.
I see what info, and of our earlier emails I can hunt up.
All N / NE as I recall. Info would have been on the GPS screen , but not written down.
Track HON the Nauru about NE.
Route to from was CNS- Misima-Honiara- Nauru. Nauru- Hon- Munda -Misima - CNS
Lots of briny to see....but a reliable well- cared for Lyc TIO-540.
Heaps of safety gear on board, raft, six pack, fishing lines etc, etc
I always figured a ditching in a retractable on water was a lot more preferable than trying one into the rainforest in FNQ or PNG !
My all time favourite is the DC 4...would sure love to have had 'The Roar of Four'.!
All N / NE as I recall. Info would have been on the GPS screen , but not written down.
Track HON the Nauru about NE.
Route to from was CNS- Misima-Honiara- Nauru. Nauru- Hon- Munda -Misima - CNS
Lots of briny to see....but a reliable well- cared for Lyc TIO-540.
Heaps of safety gear on board, raft, six pack, fishing lines etc, etc
I always figured a ditching in a retractable on water was a lot more preferable than trying one into the rainforest in FNQ or PNG !
My all time favourite is the DC 4...would sure love to have had 'The Roar of Four'.!
For the love of god, Greg, give it a rest !!!
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squawk on . Yes i should i guess . You are all delusional. To think America would not want to find the wreck.There is no way she could have made ENB . David has made a conclusion and massaged everything to fit . She ended up in the drink at Howland . Only seriously impaired people could believe they left Howland heading back west with only fuel for ENB. Even she would have headed to the Gilberts, a beach, if there was any option left. She had about an hours fuel left arriving howland area and new it. Shes probably living with Elvis in Memphis i guess
She ended up in the drink at Howland .
David at least, has something.
You and your mates at TIGHAR have nothing... nothing at all, other than manufacturerd evidence designed to support a theory and a theory at best, where they look for anything, anywhere, that could be construed as related, and then manufacture a story on how it could be hers!
I don’t understand why so much venom in your posts Mr47?
Why Attack a bloke who did some similar kind of flying and related what was experienced?
Ahhh let’s just download the satellite imagery from the 1930’s/40s to oh hang on.....
Are you a pilot? Have you never been in a position where you’ve made a bad decision based on well not really knowing. I can certainly admit early in my career pre GPS although with a few hours to having gotten myself into a erm state of temporarily unsure of my position and a little Lady Luck came out. No doubt there was the navigational training that really kicked in and played for me. The point I am trying to make is that yes even though very experienced, it was a flight into the huge unknown in a way. Stress can do wonders. Remember the ferry flight to NZ was it that was saved by an airliner, bet he set off knowing where he was going.
More devils advocate, why end up in the drink near Howland? Could actually be anywhere, could be with MH. It’s all guess work if you use your theory Mr47.
What David has done regardless of anything else has got solid proof of an additional wreck, etc. Yes I’m sure the Americans want to find it but who knows reasons behind anything. Read the post above about the new find in somewhere not so far away.
We need to find that aircraft in the jungle that was mapped by an army unit. Simple it ends everything, don’t find it then back to square one. I will do anything I can to be part of any future expedition, even as a mere bag carrier!
Why Attack a bloke who did some similar kind of flying and related what was experienced?
Ahhh let’s just download the satellite imagery from the 1930’s/40s to oh hang on.....
Are you a pilot? Have you never been in a position where you’ve made a bad decision based on well not really knowing. I can certainly admit early in my career pre GPS although with a few hours to having gotten myself into a erm state of temporarily unsure of my position and a little Lady Luck came out. No doubt there was the navigational training that really kicked in and played for me. The point I am trying to make is that yes even though very experienced, it was a flight into the huge unknown in a way. Stress can do wonders. Remember the ferry flight to NZ was it that was saved by an airliner, bet he set off knowing where he was going.
More devils advocate, why end up in the drink near Howland? Could actually be anywhere, could be with MH. It’s all guess work if you use your theory Mr47.
What David has done regardless of anything else has got solid proof of an additional wreck, etc. Yes I’m sure the Americans want to find it but who knows reasons behind anything. Read the post above about the new find in somewhere not so far away.
We need to find that aircraft in the jungle that was mapped by an army unit. Simple it ends everything, don’t find it then back to square one. I will do anything I can to be part of any future expedition, even as a mere bag carrier!
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Dear sir, if you don't agree then why don't you depart and leave the deluded fools to follow a deluded man in his wondering around PNG ? I mean it's not as if it's your aircraft that they are looking for, it's not your money and time that's being wasted is it ? Why are you so worried that they might, just might be onto something ? Does it really matter to you that much ?
Last edited by westernhero; 6th Jun 2018 at 14:42. Reason: spelling
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yes westernhero you are right. It has been a fascination and i'm a fool. I falsely thought that the facts were out there for all to see.. And i guess i thought i could prove a false profit . Its an obsession by one man, and he has his followers. It doesn't matter how absurd ,you will have your clique. I was a fool to think they would accept facts. They will hate this but how many drank the cordial, in Guinea was it
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Greg ,if, in the fullness of time David happened to be proved correct by finding the aircraft somewhere near where he thinks it may lie, will you assure everyone on Prune that you will then offer a grovelling apology for your arrogance in thinking that there are no possible explanations for the whereabouts of the wreck other than your own?
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Of course id apologize . Like all rational thinkers shes in the drink at Howland I'l go better than that ill stand naked in Queen st until arrested. Easy to be cruel but ill just opt out has been suggested. Keep sucking the cordial. Churchill said an indictment against democracy was a 5 minutes conversation with a constituent
If that "fact" was made up to fabricate a story it would mean that the map was doctored later too, which would be a conspiracy spanning many decades.
I don't know about you lot, however if I was in that situation and couldn't find my destination, I'd be running as lean as humanly possible until land appeared in my windscreen to the point where the heads would nearly pop off ! If the heat didn't crack the heads off, the vibrations would !
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The Tag, again....
Well, I do hope that we eventually find the “actual” tag that Keith Nurse removed from the Engine Mount Tubing because it could be as described in a letter I have.
If someone will inform me how to post a .pdf file I will post this letter.
This “notarised” letter was received from Bill Prymak in 2010. Bill was a noted researcher based in Denver Co.. When I first began corresponding with Bill he did not believe that the term “C/N” [for Construction Number} was a term used in the U.S. at aircraft manufacturing companies. He made enquiries and found that it was. It was probably, in “my” thinking, a hangover from the British use of the term and “exported” with British migrants or workers at American companies….
Bill Prymak knew a David Kenyon who worked at Lockheed in the 30’s and this is what Kenyon told Bill Prymak:
In the letter Bill states:
“He (Kenyon) stated to me that all engine mounts were fabricated by a foundry in L.A., shipped to Lockheed and stored with crated engines outside the assembly building. Each mount had a metal tag attached by wire, showing CN and hp rating. Since various engines were used in the Lockheed Electra assembly line, each required a different engine mount configuration, thus proper tagging was essential…”
Letter dated April 24th 2010 and Notarised.
As I see it, this is just as valid a reason as to why there was a metal tag hanging by wired from the mount on the detached engine as my explanation of a “Repair Tag” that we discussed weeks ago. The only thing missing in the above paragraph is the “S3H1”
As I said if someone will explain how to post a .pdf, I’ll post the letter.
Well, I do hope that we eventually find the “actual” tag that Keith Nurse removed from the Engine Mount Tubing because it could be as described in a letter I have.
If someone will inform me how to post a .pdf file I will post this letter.
This “notarised” letter was received from Bill Prymak in 2010. Bill was a noted researcher based in Denver Co.. When I first began corresponding with Bill he did not believe that the term “C/N” [for Construction Number} was a term used in the U.S. at aircraft manufacturing companies. He made enquiries and found that it was. It was probably, in “my” thinking, a hangover from the British use of the term and “exported” with British migrants or workers at American companies….
Bill Prymak knew a David Kenyon who worked at Lockheed in the 30’s and this is what Kenyon told Bill Prymak:
In the letter Bill states:
“He (Kenyon) stated to me that all engine mounts were fabricated by a foundry in L.A., shipped to Lockheed and stored with crated engines outside the assembly building. Each mount had a metal tag attached by wire, showing CN and hp rating. Since various engines were used in the Lockheed Electra assembly line, each required a different engine mount configuration, thus proper tagging was essential…”
Letter dated April 24th 2010 and Notarised.
As I see it, this is just as valid a reason as to why there was a metal tag hanging by wired from the mount on the detached engine as my explanation of a “Repair Tag” that we discussed weeks ago. The only thing missing in the above paragraph is the “S3H1”
As I said if someone will explain how to post a .pdf, I’ll post the letter.