Amelia Earhart PNG Theory
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FWIW - just perhaps they might help
https://projectrecover.org/about/
https://projectrecover.org/blog/2018...ua-new-guinea/
Missing World War II B-24 Bomber Discovered By Project Recover In Hansa Bay Off Papua New Guinea
https://projectrecover.org/about/
Established in 2012 with sponsorship from private and public entities, and formalized in 2016, Project Recover is a partnership among researchers at the University of Delaware’s College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment, Scripps Institution of Oceanography at the University of California San Diego, and the BentProp Project.
Missing World War II B-24 Bomber Discovered By Project Recover In Hansa Bay Off Papua New Guinea
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@CONSO...
Thanks for that, it was very interesting and the determination of their endeavour gained success. It is absolutely wonderful that there are those who continue in this work.
The man steering the boat in a brief sequence was Sir Peter Barter, the owner of The Madang Resort in PNG. It may be, that he told them of the Earhart Project as I sat down with him in his office in the late nineties and discussed the Earhart Project. Just in case he didn't (!) and also in the realisation that their brief is underwater discoveries, I have sent them a message to see if they are interested.
David
Thanks for that, it was very interesting and the determination of their endeavour gained success. It is absolutely wonderful that there are those who continue in this work.
The man steering the boat in a brief sequence was Sir Peter Barter, the owner of The Madang Resort in PNG. It may be, that he told them of the Earhart Project as I sat down with him in his office in the late nineties and discussed the Earhart Project. Just in case he didn't (!) and also in the realisation that their brief is underwater discoveries, I have sent them a message to see if they are interested.
David
Last edited by David Billings; 31st May 2018 at 23:49.
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“The Australian”
I had a journalist from “The Australian” visit me over two days this week and they propose to do a story about the project in the Weekend Magazine supplement sometime in this month of June, probably later in June as the July anniversary of the loss is coming up.
The journalist was not an aviation person so there was a lot of explaining to do.
The Patrol A1 details were discussed and during this I broached the subject that some people insisted that the engine that Patrol A1 saw was from the B-17, 41-2429 which lies on a hillside in the Mumus River valley. I displayed photographs of the difference in the B-17 Cowlings to the Electra cowlings, particularly in the nose ring apertures which show that the Electra 10E cowl rings had a rather blunted frontal area compared to the nicely rounded NACA Type cowls of the B-17 and that those B-17 cowl rings did not display “ugly rivets” as described by the Warrant Officer, Keith Nurse in his description of what he saw.
Keith Nurse also described that behind a large “Metal Disc” at the back of the busted cowling he saw, were “black painted tubes which were twisted and broken. What Keith was describing to me was what would be the broken “Airframe Truss” behind the firewall on an Electra. The Electra was designed with a steel tube truss which mounted onto the strength members on the lower side of the wing and just further back the truss attaches to the main spar. This “Airframe Truss” then has the Firewall attached and the actual Engine Mount steel tube truss is then bolted to it through the anti-vibration mounts bolt fittings. This whole arrangement of “two steel tube trusses”, with the Firewall sandwiched between them then carries the Engine. There is a photograph in Carrington’s book showing this very well.
On a B-17 there is no arrangement of two steel trusses, there is only the one “Engine Mount” which bolts to the built up aluminium structure of the Nacelle and photographs of the arrangement of the B-17 engine nacelles show that the nacelle structure forward face is actually the Firewall.
So Cazalet 33 and all those that believe that Patrol A1 saw a B-17 engine should spend some time looking at pictures of B-17’s by putting “Images: B-17 Engine Cowlings” in their top line and spending an hour or two looking….for there, between the two aircraft we have “two” different methods of mounting engines.
The journalist and I obviously discussed the Range and I showed the journalist my working plot Excel file and the derived data from Page 30 of LR487 which is in an Excel “Data File”. I stressed to the Journalist that researchers only know details of the LAE-HOWLAND Flight up to the 1030GMT “Ship in sight “ call and that any method of calculating speeds, heights and distance after 1030 GMT can only be made assumptions based on “what would normally be expected to be done…” and that included that they would NOT firewall the throttles to increase speed to meet a 1912 GMT distance because as we have discussed here in this thread, that would chew their fuel very quickly. I gave the Journalist a tabulated appreciation of how I see the Electra could have made it back to ENB…. and yes, on very little fuel under certain condition of AUW, Fuel at Start, Speeds and of course Density Altitude and Wind. The method being to use the Lockheed Data to do this and I can assure readers that when using that data, there is sometimes, a noticeable effect on Horsepower required when climbing as the Direct Drive Blower loses its’ maintenance of selected power at 5000 feet. Flying higher definitely has an effect on fuel usage. Remember that “The Sound of wings” reported radio reception at Lae has Earhart saying at 0800GMT: “On course for Howland at 12,000 feet”, after the climb to cruising altitude after NUKUMANU. Earhart had flown the Electra at 12,000 feet in the U.S. so she may have wanted to recoup some of the fuel used in the “slow” early part of the flight, or maybe it was just to avoid a cloud layer as night came on..
The Journalist mentioned “S5” as an appreciation of distance in that hearing the Electra at “S5” meant that the aircraft was very close. When I first started on this project, working next to me was a very clued on Avionics Technician who had read Mary Lovell’s book “The Sound of Wings” and when he returned the book to me he said, three things: “Very interesting, their Receiver was ‘out’ and S5 does not mean they were very close to Howland.” On the TIGHAR Forum there have been many quotes from people posting there that “S5” means they were close to Howland. Even TIGHAR’s own Radio Gurus insist that that is not so and that an HF Reception although rated at “Strength 5” does not necessarily mean the transmitting station is close and that it could be a thousand or more miles away and still be “S5”. These gurus are ignored by most TIGHAR Members. The myth persists.
Also, of interest to the Journalist was a notarised letter from Bill Prymak, a well known researcher who lived in Denver, Co.. Bill has left us, but years ago he sent me information that a man named David Kenyon worked at Lockheed and had said that engines mounts made at a foundry in L.A., were received at the Burbank plant and stored with the crated engines outside the assembly building. Each mount had a metal tag attached by wire showing C/N and H.P. rating. The letter says 'Since various engines were used in the Lockheed assembly line, each required a different engine mount configuration, thus proper tagging was essential'. The letteris Notarised by Notary public, Anita Langdon and dated April 24th, 2010.
I will keep readers posted as to when the article will appear.
I had a journalist from “The Australian” visit me over two days this week and they propose to do a story about the project in the Weekend Magazine supplement sometime in this month of June, probably later in June as the July anniversary of the loss is coming up.
The journalist was not an aviation person so there was a lot of explaining to do.
The Patrol A1 details were discussed and during this I broached the subject that some people insisted that the engine that Patrol A1 saw was from the B-17, 41-2429 which lies on a hillside in the Mumus River valley. I displayed photographs of the difference in the B-17 Cowlings to the Electra cowlings, particularly in the nose ring apertures which show that the Electra 10E cowl rings had a rather blunted frontal area compared to the nicely rounded NACA Type cowls of the B-17 and that those B-17 cowl rings did not display “ugly rivets” as described by the Warrant Officer, Keith Nurse in his description of what he saw.
Keith Nurse also described that behind a large “Metal Disc” at the back of the busted cowling he saw, were “black painted tubes which were twisted and broken. What Keith was describing to me was what would be the broken “Airframe Truss” behind the firewall on an Electra. The Electra was designed with a steel tube truss which mounted onto the strength members on the lower side of the wing and just further back the truss attaches to the main spar. This “Airframe Truss” then has the Firewall attached and the actual Engine Mount steel tube truss is then bolted to it through the anti-vibration mounts bolt fittings. This whole arrangement of “two steel tube trusses”, with the Firewall sandwiched between them then carries the Engine. There is a photograph in Carrington’s book showing this very well.
On a B-17 there is no arrangement of two steel trusses, there is only the one “Engine Mount” which bolts to the built up aluminium structure of the Nacelle and photographs of the arrangement of the B-17 engine nacelles show that the nacelle structure forward face is actually the Firewall.
So Cazalet 33 and all those that believe that Patrol A1 saw a B-17 engine should spend some time looking at pictures of B-17’s by putting “Images: B-17 Engine Cowlings” in their top line and spending an hour or two looking….for there, between the two aircraft we have “two” different methods of mounting engines.
The journalist and I obviously discussed the Range and I showed the journalist my working plot Excel file and the derived data from Page 30 of LR487 which is in an Excel “Data File”. I stressed to the Journalist that researchers only know details of the LAE-HOWLAND Flight up to the 1030GMT “Ship in sight “ call and that any method of calculating speeds, heights and distance after 1030 GMT can only be made assumptions based on “what would normally be expected to be done…” and that included that they would NOT firewall the throttles to increase speed to meet a 1912 GMT distance because as we have discussed here in this thread, that would chew their fuel very quickly. I gave the Journalist a tabulated appreciation of how I see the Electra could have made it back to ENB…. and yes, on very little fuel under certain condition of AUW, Fuel at Start, Speeds and of course Density Altitude and Wind. The method being to use the Lockheed Data to do this and I can assure readers that when using that data, there is sometimes, a noticeable effect on Horsepower required when climbing as the Direct Drive Blower loses its’ maintenance of selected power at 5000 feet. Flying higher definitely has an effect on fuel usage. Remember that “The Sound of wings” reported radio reception at Lae has Earhart saying at 0800GMT: “On course for Howland at 12,000 feet”, after the climb to cruising altitude after NUKUMANU. Earhart had flown the Electra at 12,000 feet in the U.S. so she may have wanted to recoup some of the fuel used in the “slow” early part of the flight, or maybe it was just to avoid a cloud layer as night came on..
The Journalist mentioned “S5” as an appreciation of distance in that hearing the Electra at “S5” meant that the aircraft was very close. When I first started on this project, working next to me was a very clued on Avionics Technician who had read Mary Lovell’s book “The Sound of Wings” and when he returned the book to me he said, three things: “Very interesting, their Receiver was ‘out’ and S5 does not mean they were very close to Howland.” On the TIGHAR Forum there have been many quotes from people posting there that “S5” means they were close to Howland. Even TIGHAR’s own Radio Gurus insist that that is not so and that an HF Reception although rated at “Strength 5” does not necessarily mean the transmitting station is close and that it could be a thousand or more miles away and still be “S5”. These gurus are ignored by most TIGHAR Members. The myth persists.
Also, of interest to the Journalist was a notarised letter from Bill Prymak, a well known researcher who lived in Denver, Co.. Bill has left us, but years ago he sent me information that a man named David Kenyon worked at Lockheed and had said that engines mounts made at a foundry in L.A., were received at the Burbank plant and stored with the crated engines outside the assembly building. Each mount had a metal tag attached by wire showing C/N and H.P. rating. The letter says 'Since various engines were used in the Lockheed assembly line, each required a different engine mount configuration, thus proper tagging was essential'. The letteris Notarised by Notary public, Anita Langdon and dated April 24th, 2010.
I will keep readers posted as to when the article will appear.
Last edited by David Billings; 1st Jun 2018 at 10:39.
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Read carefully my previous posted curve summary= based on zero wind and best range.
To be a devils advocate for a moment David, your entire case rests on:
1. A 1945 sitrep that refers to the discovery of an ammo dump. It contains a reference to a "patrol A1" and illegible letters A/? and the word "plates" . Is this an official notarized copy? Has it been subjected to official forensic examination? Where is the supposed patrol report allegedly attached?
2. Alleged interviews with three members of the patrol A1. Were there witnesses? transcripts? recordings? Anything other than your reports of such meetings?
3. The conveniently marked map, despite the fact that soldiers are taught never to mark a map for security. The map conveniently survived 45+ years and just happened to turn up for the one person who can make sense of the markings? how do we know this is not a forgery?
4. The alleged "plate" which you say carried certain letters but now cannot be found.
I ask this as someone who spent two years of my time and a great deal of my employers money investing in the work of an inventor who desperately wanted certain things to be done on his behalf and was prepared to be economical with the truth in support of achieving his dream. Nothing personal, but due diligence is required before anyone invests time and money.
1. A 1945 sitrep that refers to the discovery of an ammo dump. It contains a reference to a "patrol A1" and illegible letters A/? and the word "plates" . Is this an official notarized copy? Has it been subjected to official forensic examination? Where is the supposed patrol report allegedly attached?
2. Alleged interviews with three members of the patrol A1. Were there witnesses? transcripts? recordings? Anything other than your reports of such meetings?
3. The conveniently marked map, despite the fact that soldiers are taught never to mark a map for security. The map conveniently survived 45+ years and just happened to turn up for the one person who can make sense of the markings? how do we know this is not a forgery?
4. The alleged "plate" which you say carried certain letters but now cannot be found.
I ask this as someone who spent two years of my time and a great deal of my employers money investing in the work of an inventor who desperately wanted certain things to be done on his behalf and was prepared to be economical with the truth in support of achieving his dream. Nothing personal, but due diligence is required before anyone invests time and money.
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@Sunfish...
1. The SITREP.
It is in in Official Records at the AWM. I was not aware that Official Records have to be notarised. Patrol Report is in the AWM In a ledger.
Discovery of an ammo dump has nothing to do with this project and I do not have the particular SITREP for the 19th April '45 in front of me as I gave it to the Journo.... on Tuesday. I need to download another copy. The SITREPS are in the AWM under the 11th Battalion AIF for April 1945 and can be viewed by anyone taking the time. The SITREPS are confusing at times. The GHQ was 5th Division at Jaquinot bay and the Operations were administered by 13 Brigade at TOL. 13 Bde worked two Battalions at WIDE BAY, the 16th and the 11th and they also worked another 36th Battalion at OPEN BAY. The SITREPS in time of war were issued concerning multiple Patrols on a daily basis and the ones in question from 15th April to 19th April concerned not only Patrol A1 but also other Patrols from the other Companies (A, B and C)..... for any of the three Battalions.....so you have to look between the period points (Circle with a dot in it) for mention of "11 Bn D Coy A1". The four Vets I met and spoke to knew nothing about multiple "plates" but only about "one tag" removed from the engine mount. Maybe an Army Officer who formulated the SITREP called it a plate and thought there were two or more. I will say that the "c" in a/c" is faint, yes it is, but it is there and other signals refer to aircraft as "a/c" as in "Beaufort a/c will carry out anti-malarial spraying".
The Patrol Report is also in the AWM In a "Ledger" in the Appendices in the 11Bn records. It describes the topographical features and lists Grid References .It says nothing about the find of an engine and we do think that the report about the engine was contained in SITREP 63A mentioned in the list of SITREPS on the map border. We cannot find 63A, which Lt. Backhouse said would be an "Annex" Report.
2. Alleged Interviews ?
The interviews took place, there is nothing alleged about them. They were videotaped, I have a copy, a donor in L.A. has a copy, National Geographic have a copy they have not returned,…a few others have copies etc, etc, of late a TV Producer has a copy, the Journo from The Australian has a copy.…
3. A “conveniently” marked map ?
4. An “alleged” plate ?
Quite a few alleged points there. I think you need to read the website again and just to repeat myself…. You are entitled to be sceptical, I can’t please everybody..
www.earhartsearchpng.com
David Billings.
1. The SITREP.
It is in in Official Records at the AWM. I was not aware that Official Records have to be notarised. Patrol Report is in the AWM In a ledger.
Discovery of an ammo dump has nothing to do with this project and I do not have the particular SITREP for the 19th April '45 in front of me as I gave it to the Journo.... on Tuesday. I need to download another copy. The SITREPS are in the AWM under the 11th Battalion AIF for April 1945 and can be viewed by anyone taking the time. The SITREPS are confusing at times. The GHQ was 5th Division at Jaquinot bay and the Operations were administered by 13 Brigade at TOL. 13 Bde worked two Battalions at WIDE BAY, the 16th and the 11th and they also worked another 36th Battalion at OPEN BAY. The SITREPS in time of war were issued concerning multiple Patrols on a daily basis and the ones in question from 15th April to 19th April concerned not only Patrol A1 but also other Patrols from the other Companies (A, B and C)..... for any of the three Battalions.....so you have to look between the period points (Circle with a dot in it) for mention of "11 Bn D Coy A1". The four Vets I met and spoke to knew nothing about multiple "plates" but only about "one tag" removed from the engine mount. Maybe an Army Officer who formulated the SITREP called it a plate and thought there were two or more. I will say that the "c" in a/c" is faint, yes it is, but it is there and other signals refer to aircraft as "a/c" as in "Beaufort a/c will carry out anti-malarial spraying".
The Patrol Report is also in the AWM In a "Ledger" in the Appendices in the 11Bn records. It describes the topographical features and lists Grid References .It says nothing about the find of an engine and we do think that the report about the engine was contained in SITREP 63A mentioned in the list of SITREPS on the map border. We cannot find 63A, which Lt. Backhouse said would be an "Annex" Report.
2. Alleged Interviews ?
The interviews took place, there is nothing alleged about them. They were videotaped, I have a copy, a donor in L.A. has a copy, National Geographic have a copy they have not returned,…a few others have copies etc, etc, of late a TV Producer has a copy, the Journo from The Australian has a copy.…
3. A “conveniently” marked map ?
4. An “alleged” plate ?
Quite a few alleged points there. I think you need to read the website again and just to repeat myself…. You are entitled to be sceptical, I can’t please everybody..
www.earhartsearchpng.com
David Billings.
Last edited by David Billings; 1st Jun 2018 at 10:43.
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A/c plates
I just downloaded Page 88 and printed the SITREP again and it says "A/c plates" .... Capital "A" stroke small "c" ...... Airconditioner ? Very handy at Wide Bay..... The "c" is very faint... maybe the pencil point was worn down... I can't recall seeing any original copies when I went to the AWM they were all carbons, as is Page 88.
I just downloaded Page 88 and printed the SITREP again and it says "A/c plates" .... Capital "A" stroke small "c" ...... Airconditioner ? Very handy at Wide Bay..... The "c" is very faint... maybe the pencil point was worn down... I can't recall seeing any original copies when I went to the AWM they were all carbons, as is Page 88.
Last edited by David Billings; 1st Jun 2018 at 10:44.
Thank you for your reply David. I am just doing what any good investigator would do. Unfortunately there are people in this world who want desperately to believe a theory and are so mentally invested in a project that truth suffers. I have the scars to prove it. I lost two years and my firm $200,000 supporting an inventor with a great product and a ready market - except for one tiny detail that we only discovered as we were closing a deal with a huge American Corporation. He had lied to us in the belief that success would 'cure' this little problem. I will take matters at face value - that the taped interviews exist and the people say what you say they say.
About the map. Sellotape was invented in the 1930's, so it is just possible that a 1945 map at an Australian unit in PNG may have had an edge folded and sealed. Why this would have been done is to make a map board - three or four maps mounted edge to edge on a big board, covered with transparent plastic(cant remember the name) so that positions, etc. can be marked up with chinagraphs and erased as operations proceed. Are there pin holes at the corners of the map? Failing that I can't understandwhy there would need to be a fold, let alone a sticky tape.
About the map. Sellotape was invented in the 1930's, so it is just possible that a 1945 map at an Australian unit in PNG may have had an edge folded and sealed. Why this would have been done is to make a map board - three or four maps mounted edge to edge on a big board, covered with transparent plastic(cant remember the name) so that positions, etc. can be marked up with chinagraphs and erased as operations proceed. Are there pin holes at the corners of the map? Failing that I can't understandwhy there would need to be a fold, let alone a sticky tape.
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David, What circulation will the ' Australian' article get? Is there some way things could be arranged for it to get maximum circulation around the World?
I appreciate that the' Australian' writers are primarily interested in their particular circulation figures but could they be persuaded to somehow see that it reaches a wider readership?
I appreciate that the' Australian' writers are primarily interested in their particular circulation figures but could they be persuaded to somehow see that it reaches a wider readership?
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@Sunfish
11th Battalion Vet Don Angwin received the map from 11th Bn Vet Len Willoughby in 1993 or maybe earlier is my understanding. They were both in "D" Company. When I said to Don that PX were sending me down to Perth in July/August 1994, he looked at the map and took it for photocopying.... He removed the tape which he described as "old masking tape." On my colour copy of the bottom half (only) you can see where pulling the tape off has removed some of the tint of the yellowish border. You can also see the foldline. It is an American Army produced map from 1943 and as explained to me the folding of the edges was done so that when folded it would fit an Australian mapcase. How correct that is I don't know because I have no knowledge of the size of an Australian Army mapcase of the period.
11th Battalion Vet Don Angwin received the map from 11th Bn Vet Len Willoughby in 1993 or maybe earlier is my understanding. They were both in "D" Company. When I said to Don that PX were sending me down to Perth in July/August 1994, he looked at the map and took it for photocopying.... He removed the tape which he described as "old masking tape." On my colour copy of the bottom half (only) you can see where pulling the tape off has removed some of the tint of the yellowish border. You can also see the foldline. It is an American Army produced map from 1943 and as explained to me the folding of the edges was done so that when folded it would fit an Australian mapcase. How correct that is I don't know because I have no knowledge of the size of an Australian Army mapcase of the period.
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@propertee64
I just looked on searches and in 2013 the circulation number of The Weekend Australian is 254000 for he year 2013. The weekend one has two times the circulation of the daily paper.
World circ. I have no idea. I would guess that central London gets a few copies because of Aussie Expats working there.... Embassies would get copies... as for all new-stands in capital cities I don't know. I know that Port Moresby, PNG., used to get, say,100 copies on a weekend but the rest of the time no idea.
I just looked on searches and in 2013 the circulation number of The Weekend Australian is 254000 for he year 2013. The weekend one has two times the circulation of the daily paper.
World circ. I have no idea. I would guess that central London gets a few copies because of Aussie Expats working there.... Embassies would get copies... as for all new-stands in capital cities I don't know. I know that Port Moresby, PNG., used to get, say,100 copies on a weekend but the rest of the time no idea.
So Sunfish, you're suggesting that the map is a fake or some kind of elaborate hoax because you learnt in army cadets that you're not supposed to draw on a map?
Back to the actual topic please!
Back to the actual topic please!
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@Sunfish...
Vet Don Angwin's son has it in Perth. "Fablon" is the name of the transparent plastic you are thinking of....and by the time of my visit to Perth back in 1994, to my surprise, the map had been covered in it. People do have the idea of carbon dating the writing by (what looks to me as) indelible pencil but on enquiry about carbon dating they cannot be as exact as to a "year" only to like 50 years or so. Indelible pencils stopped being used in the late 40's to early 50's because of lead poisoning.
Vet Don Angwin's son has it in Perth. "Fablon" is the name of the transparent plastic you are thinking of....and by the time of my visit to Perth back in 1994, to my surprise, the map had been covered in it. People do have the idea of carbon dating the writing by (what looks to me as) indelible pencil but on enquiry about carbon dating they cannot be as exact as to a "year" only to like 50 years or so. Indelible pencils stopped being used in the late 40's to early 50's because of lead poisoning.
Last edited by David Billings; 2nd Jun 2018 at 05:06.
David, it gets more fascinating by the day...and I look forward to the W/E Oz !
If on yr next expedition, and Lidar is unaffordable, what about the hand held magnetometer, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
In my bush bashing mineral exploration days in the Iron Range rainforest, and other bush terrain, we would cut a Master grid line across the area of interest ( lots of machete swinging!) say N -S and then cut lines E-W at intervals along this line.
Readings taken over this grid, stepped out every 10 paces or so, could the plot the anomaly,... mag, geiger counter whatever the gadget.
You say yr specific area of interest is whittled down to ..fairly small ? Lots of strong arm local folk should get you a grid cut over within a reasonable time ?
Hopefully some big bucks might come and then you can really do the business..!!
best regards
If on yr next expedition, and Lidar is unaffordable, what about the hand held magnetometer, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
In my bush bashing mineral exploration days in the Iron Range rainforest, and other bush terrain, we would cut a Master grid line across the area of interest ( lots of machete swinging!) say N -S and then cut lines E-W at intervals along this line.
Readings taken over this grid, stepped out every 10 paces or so, could the plot the anomaly,... mag, geiger counter whatever the gadget.
You say yr specific area of interest is whittled down to ..fairly small ? Lots of strong arm local folk should get you a grid cut over within a reasonable time ?
Hopefully some big bucks might come and then you can really do the business..!!
best regards
Squawk, your logic in this matter never ceases to amaze me. What I am doing is paying David Billings the honour of doing the sort of due diligence a professional investor would do before committing real money to an investigation. Nothing personal. I am not accusing David Billings of anything. Without "the (treasure?) map" this entire exercise rests on the hazy wartime memories of some old diggers and the conviction of David Billings that the wreck of AE's aircraft lies in New Britain. For all we know an old digger might have decided to have some fun with David.
David has said that the interviews with the diggers were videotaped. I have already said I can accept that and that the diggers said what David says they said, a serious investor would expect to hear the tapes themselves because for all he knows David might have been leading the witness.
Then there is the map - allegedly folded to fit an Australian Army map case and the folded bit covered with masking tape. It provides the crucial extra evidence. Exactly how did the writing get on the map? Was it written on on the patrol itself? If so, how was the map carried so as to allow margin markings that were later covered by a fold? Are there any other markings on the map? Are there folds on the map? Do they correspond to carriage in an Army mapcase? I used to have one. There are images and dimensions on the web.
As for writing on maps, normally you would write in a section or platoon leaders notebook you would write on the next page to the one you wrote your orders on with a pencil stub. You carried it in your top left JG pocket. At least we did last time I was at JTC Canungra.
The whole question of how the map came to be needs examining. Who has the map?
David has said that the interviews with the diggers were videotaped. I have already said I can accept that and that the diggers said what David says they said, a serious investor would expect to hear the tapes themselves because for all he knows David might have been leading the witness.
Then there is the map - allegedly folded to fit an Australian Army map case and the folded bit covered with masking tape. It provides the crucial extra evidence. Exactly how did the writing get on the map? Was it written on on the patrol itself? If so, how was the map carried so as to allow margin markings that were later covered by a fold? Are there any other markings on the map? Are there folds on the map? Do they correspond to carriage in an Army mapcase? I used to have one. There are images and dimensions on the web.
As for writing on maps, normally you would write in a section or platoon leaders notebook you would write on the next page to the one you wrote your orders on with a pencil stub. You carried it in your top left JG pocket. At least we did last time I was at JTC Canungra.
The whole question of how the map came to be needs examining. Who has the map?
The difference with David's approach is that a story was told and map was found, that had critical numbers and letters on it that appear to perfectly match AE's aircraft, and after a very short process of elimination, the link to AE's aircraft was found. You could never fake those numbers and letters with accuracy unless you had an incredible level of inside knowledge. The fact that the resting place is likely within the aircraft's range, is also a logical place for the aircraft to be found and witness descriptions of an aircraft type are incredible.
The other mob are the opposite, they are looking for an aircraft and visiting places in order to try and find it!
The other mob are the opposite, they are looking for an aircraft and visiting places in order to try and find it!
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@aroa...
"David, it gets more fascinating by the day......Hopefully some big bucks might come and then you can really do the business..!!
Aroa...."
More fascination....!
I think we know one another from a house at Knobby's Beach containing a Pilatus and a trip to Mareeba after car brakes were fixed ? ... Many years ago in the 80's... also a certain twin piston flight from HIR to Nauru with headwinds where a GPS came in handy.....either my memory is correct or my brains are addled....
A Magnetometer.... We tried a shoulder strap carried Magnetometer in about mid 2000, but the place has Ironstone and we got beeps in a few places which turned up zilch....except Ironstone.... The gridlines through the Jungle you mention is also what the loggers do now and was evident on our 2012 visit.
I am fairy settled on one particular area now after seeing a 3D presentation from a guy in Calgary who is interested in enhancing Satellite views with modern technology. That is helping my appreciation of the area and it is a small valley off the hill that I didn't now existed and it has a good fit with the sketch by Ken Backhouse that is shown on the website.and descriptions by Don Angwin.. Maybe next year. What is amazing is the interest from far flung places where people are interested in giving suggestions and actually helping...
Best regards
"David, it gets more fascinating by the day......Hopefully some big bucks might come and then you can really do the business..!!
Aroa...."
More fascination....!
I think we know one another from a house at Knobby's Beach containing a Pilatus and a trip to Mareeba after car brakes were fixed ? ... Many years ago in the 80's... also a certain twin piston flight from HIR to Nauru with headwinds where a GPS came in handy.....either my memory is correct or my brains are addled....
A Magnetometer.... We tried a shoulder strap carried Magnetometer in about mid 2000, but the place has Ironstone and we got beeps in a few places which turned up zilch....except Ironstone.... The gridlines through the Jungle you mention is also what the loggers do now and was evident on our 2012 visit.
I am fairy settled on one particular area now after seeing a 3D presentation from a guy in Calgary who is interested in enhancing Satellite views with modern technology. That is helping my appreciation of the area and it is a small valley off the hill that I didn't now existed and it has a good fit with the sketch by Ken Backhouse that is shown on the website.and descriptions by Don Angwin.. Maybe next year. What is amazing is the interest from far flung places where people are interested in giving suggestions and actually helping...
Best regards
Last edited by David Billings; 2nd Jun 2018 at 12:24.
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@Sunfish...
"What I am doing is paying David Billings the honour of doing the sort of due diligence a professional investor would do before committing real money to an investigation. Nothing personal."
Thank you Sunfish for that honour and to be honest I would do the same... To any person, "aviation minded" or "non-aviation" this could appear to be an outlandish tale put forward by a nobody from Queensland ! Too right that questions should be asked. You put 'em up and I'll answer them as best I can.
Four "Old Diggers" having fun, sounds better than one old silly devil doing it though....not that any if them did. One if them was awarded the MM for carrying out a wounded man while under fire at WIDE BAY, so I doubt that he would be a party to that. Indeed all of them were honest men, generally speaking....men from a bygone age.
There is no "Treasure Map" however... for me.... the satisfaction and combination of finding lost aircrew and solving the mystery is the be all and end all. If it so happens that a few sheckels fall my way to replace the 6,500 bucks it just cost to replace the tin on my roof and the other 1,100 to replace my near 30-year old gas water heater over the last three weeks...... then so be it, that's a bonus the ATO will be happy about because as sure as hell, I'll get taxed on it.
The map was "allegedly folded"..... "There yuh go agin'........wid' the 'allegedlies'....."..... Lets see now... I want to walk through the Jungle with a piece of paper 20 inches wide and 22 inches high and I hold it chest high and walk straight into a palm like plant with three inch yellow spines like a porcupine has which makes a mess of my piece of paper and my face and hands. I think it would have to be folded, don't you ? Maybe it was even delivered folded. Maybe it came off the U.S. Army printing press already folded, like a newpaper does. Even ONC's and Road Maps come folded...I will admit that ONC's are bigger then 20" x 22".
The website explains "how" the map became a traveler between Rabaul and Perth and how Don came to be in possession of it.... You will be in good company if you read it... there are others who can say they have read the website too.
I recall that I have already answered your question in that the map is in PERTH and I add that it used to be in ADELAIDE (I think). I do not know the Street and House number in PER.. My contact in PER is a relation of the present owner.
Regards.....
"What I am doing is paying David Billings the honour of doing the sort of due diligence a professional investor would do before committing real money to an investigation. Nothing personal."
Thank you Sunfish for that honour and to be honest I would do the same... To any person, "aviation minded" or "non-aviation" this could appear to be an outlandish tale put forward by a nobody from Queensland ! Too right that questions should be asked. You put 'em up and I'll answer them as best I can.
Four "Old Diggers" having fun, sounds better than one old silly devil doing it though....not that any if them did. One if them was awarded the MM for carrying out a wounded man while under fire at WIDE BAY, so I doubt that he would be a party to that. Indeed all of them were honest men, generally speaking....men from a bygone age.
There is no "Treasure Map" however... for me.... the satisfaction and combination of finding lost aircrew and solving the mystery is the be all and end all. If it so happens that a few sheckels fall my way to replace the 6,500 bucks it just cost to replace the tin on my roof and the other 1,100 to replace my near 30-year old gas water heater over the last three weeks...... then so be it, that's a bonus the ATO will be happy about because as sure as hell, I'll get taxed on it.
The map was "allegedly folded"..... "There yuh go agin'........wid' the 'allegedlies'....."..... Lets see now... I want to walk through the Jungle with a piece of paper 20 inches wide and 22 inches high and I hold it chest high and walk straight into a palm like plant with three inch yellow spines like a porcupine has which makes a mess of my piece of paper and my face and hands. I think it would have to be folded, don't you ? Maybe it was even delivered folded. Maybe it came off the U.S. Army printing press already folded, like a newpaper does. Even ONC's and Road Maps come folded...I will admit that ONC's are bigger then 20" x 22".
The website explains "how" the map became a traveler between Rabaul and Perth and how Don came to be in possession of it.... You will be in good company if you read it... there are others who can say they have read the website too.
I recall that I have already answered your question in that the map is in PERTH and I add that it used to be in ADELAIDE (I think). I do not know the Street and House number in PER.. My contact in PER is a relation of the present owner.
Regards.....