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Amelia Earhart PNG Theory

Old 29th Jul 2009, 01:00
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Further Fuel for the Fire

Dave, I did a bit of work on this back in 80's & 90's, and came to no particular theory.but I notated the following, which may be able to be discounted by the better informed.(a) Did the aircraft have only a single generator (LH engine) as standard equipment. (b) There is a comment in one publication "KLM Engineers rectified a generator electrical problem in Batavia" (We all know how much load keying a HF puts on a system) (c) Numerous non radio equipped Bank Line phosphate vessels plied between Ocean Is and Aust/NZ around that time window (see British Phosphate Commission archives, Melbourne) (d) Re "ship in sight ahead" Nauru residents reported hearing an aircraft, Ocean Is. residents did not, on that night. (e) F.N. had trouble hearing time signals to set his chronometers at Lae (f) A poor understanding of radio wave propagation on the flight deck (g) and lastly somebody may be able to help me here, an eclipse of the sun occured around this time and area, I bought the entire National Geographic publications (CDs) for '37/38 but no mention of it therein.I have been unable to get info from theRoyal Observatory in Hawaii.
I do have a letter from a National kiap on an island south of Bonriki stating a Lapun recalled an aiircraft flying overhead at night before WW2. If it is credible, the location is on Finchaffen-Howland rhumb line. I wish you success.

Last edited by sundaun; 30th Jul 2009 at 18:50.
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 06:35
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Video clip has "Oakland" on the hangar roof. Stumbled across this at IFR by the Sun and Stars

From time to time, I reflect with empathy on the task that Fred Noonan had on his ill-fated flight with Amelia Earhart to Howland Island in 1937. Fred was well-experienced, having established most of the Pan Am's China Clipper seaplane routes across the Pacific. Noonan and Earhart left Lae, New Guinea, in late morning local time for the roughly 2200-mile, 20-hour flight, with a planned arrival at Howland after sunrise, about 8 a.m. local time. That gave Noonan all night for three-star navigation and a morning arrival to find the little island.

Based on Earhart's last few voice transmissions, "We are on the line 157 337 ...," Noonan was using a navigation technique called celestial landfall. Celestial landfall requires intentional off-setting the track to the left or right of the intended course, so that when the craft gets abeam the destination the navigator knows which way to turn.

The approach to Howland was quite literally the textbook reason for the landfall technique. With only a single celestial body to shoot—the Sun—Noonan had good information to determine his groundspeed but nothing for course guidance, because their true course was about 082° and the Sun's Zn was 067°. If that's not clear, think about it this way: They were flying toward the rising sun, so Noonan could calculate the distance toward the sun with good precision and know how fast they were moving along the course. Deviation north or south of the planned course, however, would be tough to calculate, as their LOP would run 157° to 337°.

I would guess that Noonan altered course to put them perhaps 60 miles north of their flight-planned true course. About an hour prior to his ETA, he would have taken a sun shot that gave him the 157°-337° LOP. Using his latest computed ground speed, he would have slid that LOP forward on the chart to where it would run through Howland.

Then he would have taken up a course that was perpendicular to the LOP, in this case 067°, and would have computed a dead reckoning position and time for intercepting the LOP. When they reached that time, they would have turned right to about 157° to fly down the LOP to Howland. That turning point, the dead-reckoning position, may have been on the order of 60 miles or about 30 minutes flying time from Howland.

During those 30 minutes there might have been a bit of conflict in crew imperatives. My experience with the South Pacific is that it is common to have wide stretches of scattered-to-broken, fair-weather cumulus clouds with bases as low as 1000 feet and tops somewhere around 3000 feet. Noonan would have wanted to stay on top to keep shooting the Sun to make sure the LOP continued to fall through Howland. Earhart would have wanted to drop down to see the island. Unfortunately, each of those little clouds has a shadow that looks just like a flat island.

Lae take off film clip here www.tighar.org/amelia_video.zip
I read too that Howland was 5 miles in error on the charts.

Last edited by Brian Abraham; 29th Jul 2009 at 07:28. Reason: Add film clip
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 10:38
  #43 (permalink)  
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Yes, after five years in PNG including Lae, I cant remember them big hangars with OAKLAND written on the roof

DOH
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 15:15
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Among various current Earhart newswire posts

Toronto Star Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:26 AM PDT
Two Ontario DNA labs could play a key role in solving the mystery of famed aviator Amelia Earhart's disappearance 72 years ago.

Note: Above marks one of many one or two line news blurbs currently floating around. Notwithstanding the whys and hows of what is really going on Tighar, Nikumororo wise, so much at least sounds more seriously conveyed than it perhaps should be. People are always hungry for new 'Earhart hunt' news and lean towards misapplications rumormill wise when they read briefs like this.
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Old 30th Jul 2009, 07:58
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Amelia Earhart Project in PNG

Stepwilk:

Gillespie is dedicated alright. He is dedicated to not standing in line looking for a real job.

J5 Piper Fan:

If you want to know the full story about Bolam, then contact Mr. Bill PRYMAK in Denver Colorado and he will fill you in, right from the beginning to the end. Bolasm was NOT head to toe the same as Earhart, she was shorter buddy, believe it. Red my previous post for photo remarks.

Chimbu:

I remember the WSG issue. I was full time at PX 92-2002. I am there NOW

Stepwilk:

Gillespie always say he has a "Scientific Investigation", so how come he mucked up the samples he has ? US$4.5 MILLION spent, says he should have had the right equipment.

ALL: See my earlier post as to why Earhart would "NOT" go to Gardner (Nikumaroro).

Tinpis:

The burst of white as the Electra takes off at Lae could have been a wet patch, it has been raining. Remember what rain is like at Lae ?

A-1-5

There is NO documentary evidence of wire being left on the runway at Lae. I have discussed this earlier. I believe Gillespie started that one but he will not answer as to his source, ie: "he can't".

Sundau:

a) Yes, b) No knowledge, c) Yes, but for it to have been the SS Myrtlebbank the acceleration and Groundspeed was not possible given the headwind d) Yes, Cude heard her (reported) e) He did get one f) Radio ops WERE poor.

Brian Abraham:

Do you think the sun could have been obscured ? The magi sunline through Howland which also goes through Gardner Island , believe it or not is in TRUE degrees, Aviators do not work in TRUE degrees. If she were calling a line she would have given the degrees in what Noonan told her to fly, ie: 148-328 MAGNETIC, the variation is damn near 10 degrees at Howland.

Regards,

Dave Billings
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Old 30th Jul 2009, 08:29
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Do you think the sun could have been obscured ?
Dave, I have no view what so ever, merely noting an item I came across. Pity my Old Man is no longer around to answer some of these questions, as he was at Lae at the time and saw them off.
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Old 30th Jul 2009, 09:59
  #47 (permalink)  
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Thanks David for finding the thread and taking the time to post here. I find your story fascinating and I dont understand why with all the compelling evidence you have, no one will fork out some dough for an expedition!?

One day with my millions of $$$ I make, Ill be able to fund it

Anyway Ill keep watching this thread with interest.

SEAL11
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Old 30th Jul 2009, 12:52
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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It's amusing that you say Gillespie "is dedicated to not standing in line looking for a real job." He has created "a real job"--running a profitable and exciting adventure-travel company, essentially--rather than sitting in his Dilbert cubicle as perhaps you do. Amazing how much resentment of Ric there is from people who who achieve nothing but keystrokes while he's out having a fascinating experience that will perhaps even find Earhart. May, maybe not, but as Gillespie has always said, he doesn't care a whit about "the Earhart Legend," his interest is in the hunt,the pursuit, the chase, whether it's for some woman pilot who became a PR icon, or for a B-17 that was lost in a jungle, or for two loony Frenchmen who tried to beat Lindbergh across the Atlantic.

Ric I know and like. You, angry Mr. Billings, don't sound like a particularly enjoyable character.
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Old 30th Jul 2009, 23:11
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Seal, no one believed Bernard O'Reilly, so he went alone and found the Stinson in the Lamington Plateau.
Probably happens often.
yeah part of my millions when I win the lotto will go to proving David's right too.
I'm all for lots of little dollar donations in the hat.
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Old 31st Jul 2009, 07:13
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Amelia Earhart Project in PNG

Brian Abraham:

Brian the first bit concerns the wire...rumour.

"Down to the Wire"..... Did your father happen to mention anything that would support a "rumour" that aerial wire was found on the strip after Earhart left. Knowledge of PNG is a good thing here and my money would say that a New Guinean employed to cut grass would find the aerial and take it to an operator in the hope of being rewarded.

That would cause a fleet check of all the aircraft at LAE...especially if there was an aerial mast hanging at the end...

We would have known about the aerial in 1937 not found out about it from America in the 1990's. That is my opinion and I'll stick with that until someone comes up with the evidence.

Radio Reception ..."nil"

As far as Radio Rx was concerned, her Rx WAS on the fritz. Stan Rose, an RAAF Sergeant had given her some fuses at Darwin in case the Rx fuse blew again. DCA in DRW castigated her (mildly) for her lack of Radio procedure on the approach into DRW. What say the Rx actually burnt out ? Then we can blame poor old Stan Rose for giving her the wrong amperage fuses ? Who knows how the Receiver behaved after she lost two-way contact, anything could have happened. An aerial connector could have come loose, furthermore, Radio experts from the 1930's onwards say that the UPPER aerial was for Rx/Tx via a relay just as my "Whistling Wheelbarrow" conveyance had the same set-up in the 60's. Until I hear proof that the lower aerial was for Rx, I'll believe the Radio gurus who say it was for beacon reception.

"Aah, the sun....line":

Commander Clarence William's strip maps show that the approach MAGNETIC heading for the last phase of the flight out at and on the approach to Howland was 068 degrees MAGNETIC. What say Noonan told her to steer 067 Magnetic as a correction ? At 1912 she is saying "Must be on you but cannot see you..." then starts a search "perpendicular to her last course steer of 067 MAG... What do we get then ? 157-337 MAG.

She said, "We are on the line 157-337", NOT "We are on the sunline 157-337". There is a difference. Furthermore, "if" she was meant to say "148-328" and that went through Howland, it goes nowhere near Gardner.

I rest my case. As I said earlier if Noonan gave her a steer off the TRUE sunline (which they were late to see anyway as that existed at sunrise) he would have subtracted the MAG Variation and given her 148-328 MAG and that is what she would have said. I'll accept rebuttals if I am wrong.

Regards,

David Billings
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Old 31st Jul 2009, 07:42
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Amelia Earhart Project in PNG

Stepwilk:

Who is angry, I certainly am not. I take it then that you are an indefatigable fan of El Stripo and that you have contributed generously to his well-being, n'est pas ?

It's amusing that you say Gillespie "is dedicated to not standing in line looking for a real job." He has created "a real job"--running a profitable and exciting adventure-travel company, essentially--

Oh, really ? If you are talking about Mr. Gillespie's enterprise which goes by the name of "Tighar" than I am sure the American IRS would be interested to know that, because it is supposed to be a NON-PROFIT organisation and is registered as such. Duh....

--rather than sitting in his Dilbert cubicle as perhaps you do. Amazing how much resentment of Ric there is from people who who achieve nothing but keystrokes

Now, I know positively, that you have not even bothered to read my website or find out anything about me AT ALL, and therefore, I am going to leave you in your ignorance. Tch, Americans....

--while he's out having a fascinating experience that will perhaps even find Earhart. May, maybe not, but as Gillespie has always said, he doesn't care a whit about "the Earhart Legend," his interest is in the hunt,the pursuit, the chase, whether it's for some woman pilot who became a PR icon, or for a B-17 that was lost in a jungle,

Which B-17 do you mean, do you mean the Markham Valley B-17 which he tried to dis-assemble a score years ago but was prevented from doing so and (as the story goes) was apprehended by a PNG Constabule ("Ello dere"), on a "wil-wil" and removed from the vicinity (and the country) is what is said here. He doesn't talk much about that.

Or do you mean the "Swamp Ghost" which sits at LAE still in a shed and is still being fought over by some guy in Philly ?

or for two loony Frenchmen who tried to beat Lindbergh across the Atlantic.

Please, please, Stepwilk, you have over'step'ped the mark:

..... the (as you call) "loony" Frenchmen were actually WWI flying heroes de L'Armee de L'Aire...one of them had many Boche kills to his credit, he was an "ACE" and highly honoured in La Belle France and you call him and them both "loony" !!! .... "Sacre Bleu" Stepwilk, go into France and zey weel rremoof votre bonce... "Aux Armes ! Mes amis !...Stepwilk Aux Madame Guillotine", zey weel say... you will be looking up at where you have been if you go there !

Ric I know and like. You, angry Mr. Billings, don't sound like a particularly enjoyable character.

How wrong you are mate.

Regards,

Dave Billings.
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Old 31st Jul 2009, 08:15
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sixtiesrelic View Post
I'm all for lots of little dollar donations in the hat.
Yes, me too. This is all very interesting.

Dave, how about you setup a PayPal account and place a "PayPal Donate" button on your website? Here's how to do it.
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Old 31st Jul 2009, 08:48
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Dave, what the Old Boy had to say was prior to 1966 so any detail he may have mentioned is well and truely flushed down the drain.
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Old 31st Jul 2009, 09:52
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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dave billings

wow david,
i am fascinated by your epic tales AND AE especially since 2007 was 70 years since her last trip into the unknown...

it is amazing that in the 1930's so many things were at a pioneering stage and AE was at the forefront of aviation feats...

If you ever come to London i would buy you dinner !

ps i would happily donate if you set up a paypal fund

best wishes
rog
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Old 31st Jul 2009, 10:32
  #55 (permalink)  
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Set up the account and I will be in.

This is a mystery that MUST be solved.

The group that persevered to find HMAS Sydney would agree.
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Old 31st Jul 2009, 10:39
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i have been up since 7am when i spotted this thread reading the links to david's site and others...

i am still not shaved or washed and cant stop reading lol
i am absolutely fascinated...

i must make myself a cuppa
its now 1140 am !!!
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Old 31st Jul 2009, 19:43
  #57 (permalink)  
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Er....this is not off a Lockheed, is it?





Pieces of an old US seaplane washed up on Howland Island's shore. No aircraft has ever landed on the island.
Posted by: Charles A Veley
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Old 31st Jul 2009, 20:13
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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i would like to visit howland or lae very much
take in the atmos of what it was like in 1937

this looks interesting

Fox Searchlight - Amelia - Official Site
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Old 31st Jul 2009, 20:31
  #59 (permalink)  
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Atmosphere Lae '37?

Well the Cecil was there, probably where they stayed....





I would imagine the scene looked similar to this at breakfast...

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Old 31st Jul 2009, 23:23
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Amelia Earhart Project in PNG

SEAL 11:

Ever since I stood on a street corner with my tin cup held out, I too have been surprised that no American funding has arisen for the Project. I put it down to the fact that the evidence has not arisen from America and therefore it can't be true. Although I have many supporters in America and some of them have sent amounts of money (especially a lady in L.A.) no-one has come up with the big tomale, the "larger" amount we need for the Magnetometer Survey. Despite the story being in USA Today back in 2001 and the website being up since 2004 the necessary moolah eludes us.

Sixties Relic knows me and has sat in my office in my shed while I went through the detail of the project and I thank him and others for their support.

Training Wheels, Barkly, et al who want the Paypal thing. I'll see about setting that up when I get back home to Oz.

Brian Abraham:

If your Dad was in Lae and got out before the gentlemen from the Rising Sun arrived, he was lucky. Those that remained in Lae were taken to Rabaul and most ended up on the Montevideo Maru. "Hostages to Freedom - The Fall of Rabaul" by Peter Stone is an excellent read for anyone wanting to know about Rabaul since German times through to the end of WWII. A fascinating book and in it one more clue as to why no-one other than the Australian Patrol has seen the all-metal wreck which evidence says is the Electra.

Rog747:

Make it dinner at the Dorchester and you are "ON". I'll have the Beef Wellington...... always wanted to say that !

Tinpis:

For all those that do not know, "Tinpis" in Tok Pisin is "Tinned Fish" a staple here in PNG, "rais na tinpis" a dinnertime favourite....

Tinny, I have been reading your comments on the "ples bilong Tok-Tok" thread for a few years now. Mate, you would have made a fortune as a comedian in music halls !!! You have amused me no end over that period, Thanks........ and "Yes", they did stay at the Cecil. It is said Noonan left the drift bombs under the bed in his room. I was a bit too late to catch up with Mrs. Birrell to speak to her down at the Gold Coast.

Regards,

Dave Billings
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