Amelia Earhart PNG Theory
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Chimbu:
Don't know where you get the idea she would head for Lae. She had spent near four days at Lae and had spoken to Guinea Airways people. What do pilot's always say to one another when they know that someone is going soemwhere for the first time ? "If you get into trouble duck into ......... there's a small airstrip there", or words to that effect. She would head for Rabaul, no question if she got into trouble on the way out. Two airstrips there, Lakunai and Vunakanau. Vuna had just opened. She didn't use Rabaul because Tavurvur was erupting (as it still is today).
The Nimitz story came from words he said to Fred Goerner, a Columbia Broadcaster who worked in SFO. Georner did some interesting research and he was part of the Saipan Theory but just before he died he refuted the notion. You would think wouldn't you that if Earhart had been held by the Japanese in Weishien Camp in China or even in the Emperor's Palace or was brought back by Monsignor James Francis Kelley or held on Saipan that ALL the HUNDREDS of people (including Japanese Vets still alive) who would have been in the know would have spoken out by now. The idea is prepostorous and I am not saying that because of what we have, I am saying it because I find it totally ridiculous. There are more conspiracy theories surrounding Earhart than there were fleas on my dog.
Kelley's taped Conversation with Reineck I have. I play it to myself when I need cheering up. It could form a basis for a new comedy show if it was not so tragic. An old man, in dementia, gets fed leading questions by another old man intent on digging out of the party of the first part the information that he had Earhart at his home at Rumson NJ. How could anybody think that after Japan had been defeated that the Emperor would still have Earhart locked up in the palace ? He had the power of a 5 watt lamp. Since when did Eisenhower leave the troops behind in Japan and why would the Emperor hold Eamon De Valera the "emperor" of Ireland ? You didn't put those bits on pprune did you Chuckles ?
Back to Fred Goerner: Goerner saw a message in a USN file which puzzled him. He saw a message in there which had originated from Nauru Radio that they had heard a radio call, "Land in sight ahead.." on 6210Kcs and which had been timed at (in the book) 1030am Local on board the USCG Itasca. Georner writes (to the effect): "...so nearly two hours after the supposedly last transmission heard by Itasca at 0844am Local, Nauru hears "Land in sight ahead" on AE's frequency". Goerner wrote that in the first edition of his book "The Search for Amelia Earhart" but left it out of the second edition because by then he had grasped the Saipan Theory and the call didn't fit with it.
So what have we got there, if AE Tx'd "Land in sight ahead" at 1030 am Local on the Itasca ? What we have is a call at 2200GMT, one and three-quarters of an hour "after" the supposedly last call at 2014GMT (0844am Local at the Itasca).
Where would the land be ? Well, we have the report that she was heard in the darkness of the early hours on Tabiteuea Island in The Gilberts.....going overhead. No time given. Tabiteueans didn't wear wristwatches then but that is he wrong time of day... that would be heading "East"...
How far can the Electra travel in 1.75 hours at Cruise ? I say 300 miles.
If she set the power to give her magic 150mph G/S in nil wind conditiond and leaves it there, the now tailwind will give her a boost. She is light also. I am saying she could make 175 mph G/S. 1.75 x 175 = 305 miles. On approaching Howland, Earhart would be steering 068 degrees M according to Clarence Williams strip maps. The wind was from around 082 on the way out at the Ontario, so if anything, with the overcast conditions that she radioed and no ASTRO, the Electra is going to be blown north of track. If the wind is as high as my research is showing, then she is going to be short of Howland and she is not going to know "how far" short.
Remember, she could not get a "minimum" on the DF...too far a range perhaps ?
It makes logical sense to say that if she turned back and was seeing land at 2200GMT, then she was seeing Tabiteuae or Nonouti Atoll. By this time she has 240 USG left, maybe a bit more.
What would you do, if you knew that your aircraft at 10,000 feet could use as little as 20 USGPH and still achieve 120 mph IAS ?
What about going a little higher, how much would it use then ?
What kind of a TAS would it have there and what would it achieve if it has 15, 20 mph of wind blowing up the back ?
There is a little known fact that Earhart did fly the Electra at 12,000 feet in the U.S., so she would know what it could do at that altitude.
Three radio calls were heard by Nauru Radio at 6:31pm, 6:43pm and 6:54pm (Rabaul Local time) on 6210kcs and at that time, Nauru reception on HF is within range of an aircraft approaching Rabaul from the East. The words were unintelligible. Who would be in the air at that time anywhere in the Pacific within radio range of Nauru ?
I leave you with this thought also. Last year in Port Morbid, I was introduced to a Mortlock Islander who had stated to a friend of mine (in a discussion about the need for an airstrip out there), that his grandfather had told him of an aircraft flying over the Mortlocks well before the time of the "Big Fight". What aircraft would that be that could fly a 660 mile round trip from Rabaul (nearest airstrip) out over the Mortlocks and return before WWII ?
Running out of time here, got to pack for "Paradise".......
Regards,
Dave Billings.
Don't know where you get the idea she would head for Lae. She had spent near four days at Lae and had spoken to Guinea Airways people. What do pilot's always say to one another when they know that someone is going soemwhere for the first time ? "If you get into trouble duck into ......... there's a small airstrip there", or words to that effect. She would head for Rabaul, no question if she got into trouble on the way out. Two airstrips there, Lakunai and Vunakanau. Vuna had just opened. She didn't use Rabaul because Tavurvur was erupting (as it still is today).
The Nimitz story came from words he said to Fred Goerner, a Columbia Broadcaster who worked in SFO. Georner did some interesting research and he was part of the Saipan Theory but just before he died he refuted the notion. You would think wouldn't you that if Earhart had been held by the Japanese in Weishien Camp in China or even in the Emperor's Palace or was brought back by Monsignor James Francis Kelley or held on Saipan that ALL the HUNDREDS of people (including Japanese Vets still alive) who would have been in the know would have spoken out by now. The idea is prepostorous and I am not saying that because of what we have, I am saying it because I find it totally ridiculous. There are more conspiracy theories surrounding Earhart than there were fleas on my dog.
Kelley's taped Conversation with Reineck I have. I play it to myself when I need cheering up. It could form a basis for a new comedy show if it was not so tragic. An old man, in dementia, gets fed leading questions by another old man intent on digging out of the party of the first part the information that he had Earhart at his home at Rumson NJ. How could anybody think that after Japan had been defeated that the Emperor would still have Earhart locked up in the palace ? He had the power of a 5 watt lamp. Since when did Eisenhower leave the troops behind in Japan and why would the Emperor hold Eamon De Valera the "emperor" of Ireland ? You didn't put those bits on pprune did you Chuckles ?
Back to Fred Goerner: Goerner saw a message in a USN file which puzzled him. He saw a message in there which had originated from Nauru Radio that they had heard a radio call, "Land in sight ahead.." on 6210Kcs and which had been timed at (in the book) 1030am Local on board the USCG Itasca. Georner writes (to the effect): "...so nearly two hours after the supposedly last transmission heard by Itasca at 0844am Local, Nauru hears "Land in sight ahead" on AE's frequency". Goerner wrote that in the first edition of his book "The Search for Amelia Earhart" but left it out of the second edition because by then he had grasped the Saipan Theory and the call didn't fit with it.
So what have we got there, if AE Tx'd "Land in sight ahead" at 1030 am Local on the Itasca ? What we have is a call at 2200GMT, one and three-quarters of an hour "after" the supposedly last call at 2014GMT (0844am Local at the Itasca).
Where would the land be ? Well, we have the report that she was heard in the darkness of the early hours on Tabiteuea Island in The Gilberts.....going overhead. No time given. Tabiteueans didn't wear wristwatches then but that is he wrong time of day... that would be heading "East"...
How far can the Electra travel in 1.75 hours at Cruise ? I say 300 miles.
If she set the power to give her magic 150mph G/S in nil wind conditiond and leaves it there, the now tailwind will give her a boost. She is light also. I am saying she could make 175 mph G/S. 1.75 x 175 = 305 miles. On approaching Howland, Earhart would be steering 068 degrees M according to Clarence Williams strip maps. The wind was from around 082 on the way out at the Ontario, so if anything, with the overcast conditions that she radioed and no ASTRO, the Electra is going to be blown north of track. If the wind is as high as my research is showing, then she is going to be short of Howland and she is not going to know "how far" short.
Remember, she could not get a "minimum" on the DF...too far a range perhaps ?
It makes logical sense to say that if she turned back and was seeing land at 2200GMT, then she was seeing Tabiteuae or Nonouti Atoll. By this time she has 240 USG left, maybe a bit more.
What would you do, if you knew that your aircraft at 10,000 feet could use as little as 20 USGPH and still achieve 120 mph IAS ?
What about going a little higher, how much would it use then ?
What kind of a TAS would it have there and what would it achieve if it has 15, 20 mph of wind blowing up the back ?
There is a little known fact that Earhart did fly the Electra at 12,000 feet in the U.S., so she would know what it could do at that altitude.
Three radio calls were heard by Nauru Radio at 6:31pm, 6:43pm and 6:54pm (Rabaul Local time) on 6210kcs and at that time, Nauru reception on HF is within range of an aircraft approaching Rabaul from the East. The words were unintelligible. Who would be in the air at that time anywhere in the Pacific within radio range of Nauru ?
I leave you with this thought also. Last year in Port Morbid, I was introduced to a Mortlock Islander who had stated to a friend of mine (in a discussion about the need for an airstrip out there), that his grandfather had told him of an aircraft flying over the Mortlocks well before the time of the "Big Fight". What aircraft would that be that could fly a 660 mile round trip from Rabaul (nearest airstrip) out over the Mortlocks and return before WWII ?
Running out of time here, got to pack for "Paradise".......
Regards,
Dave Billings.
Last edited by David Billings; 25th Feb 2018 at 11:30.
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Torres:
Sorry Torres, I didn't answer your query about Earhart's statement "fuel is running low" and therefore how would she have enough to get back to ENB.... (?)
That statement was made by AE while she was searching for Howland and I interpret that as being "fuel is running low to be able to keep on searching". In other words she had to stop looking at a certain level of fuel which she required to use to get back to the Gilbert's, ie "Contingency Fuel" and I firmly believe that figure was a level of 300 USG
From a previous post I made you will have read that she always stipulated "The Gilberts" as her backdoor contingency and she had said that to Gene Vidal whose voice tapes "saying that very thing" are in the University of Wisconsin where they were found by researcher Ron Bright.
So, she had "trip fuel" to get to Howland, plus she had "search fuel" to look for Howland plus she had "contingency fuel" to get to the Gilberts all rolled into the 1100USG she carried out of Lae. Remember that amount is supposed to give, at CRUISE power mind you, at least 3165 miles. I am saying at turnback she had covered around 2256 to 2306 miles from Lae or she was at about 1890 to 1940 miles from Rabaul.
She had to have enough for 600 miles back to the Gilberts and then some, in order to be able to find the best place to put the thing down so in a worst case down low she would gulp 60 USG per hour, so four hours at Cruise to give 150 mph G/S needs 240 USG and then another hour to have a good look for the best place is 300 USG and that's how I arrive at that.
I discussed earlier the return for one and three-quarter hours at Cruise and climbing up again to say 8,000 and using 38 USGPH then by the time she sees (as I say) Nonouti Atoll she has used 65 USG leaving approx 235 USG. She is now 1590 miles from Rabaul.
At this stage, I would have liked to have been a fly on the cockpit wall because she has a BIG decision to make.... put it down on Tabiteuea or Nonouti and possibly wait weeks for someone to come and get her. Keep going to Ocean Island but she knows there is nowhere to put it down there. What about Nauru, no airstrip there either. Nukumanu, well, we can get there but we may have to ditch in the lagoon.
Economise, get high, use the power setting for the OAK-HNL flight when they slowed the Electra down, it will take time but they will get there, and be closer to civilisation and they may even get to Rabaul, they have at least 11 hours endurance.
If I have 150 G/S at the low power setting and I use 20 USGPH at 10,000 feet or slightly less at 12,000 feet and I have 235 USG left and 15 is unusable fuel, I can run for 11 hours and cover 1575 miles. Planning to fuel exhaustion is not everyone's cup of tea but as you can see from those figures she could just about make it.
What would you do ?
Regards,
Dave Billings
Sorry Torres, I didn't answer your query about Earhart's statement "fuel is running low" and therefore how would she have enough to get back to ENB.... (?)
That statement was made by AE while she was searching for Howland and I interpret that as being "fuel is running low to be able to keep on searching". In other words she had to stop looking at a certain level of fuel which she required to use to get back to the Gilbert's, ie "Contingency Fuel" and I firmly believe that figure was a level of 300 USG
From a previous post I made you will have read that she always stipulated "The Gilberts" as her backdoor contingency and she had said that to Gene Vidal whose voice tapes "saying that very thing" are in the University of Wisconsin where they were found by researcher Ron Bright.
So, she had "trip fuel" to get to Howland, plus she had "search fuel" to look for Howland plus she had "contingency fuel" to get to the Gilberts all rolled into the 1100USG she carried out of Lae. Remember that amount is supposed to give, at CRUISE power mind you, at least 3165 miles. I am saying at turnback she had covered around 2256 to 2306 miles from Lae or she was at about 1890 to 1940 miles from Rabaul.
She had to have enough for 600 miles back to the Gilberts and then some, in order to be able to find the best place to put the thing down so in a worst case down low she would gulp 60 USG per hour, so four hours at Cruise to give 150 mph G/S needs 240 USG and then another hour to have a good look for the best place is 300 USG and that's how I arrive at that.
I discussed earlier the return for one and three-quarter hours at Cruise and climbing up again to say 8,000 and using 38 USGPH then by the time she sees (as I say) Nonouti Atoll she has used 65 USG leaving approx 235 USG. She is now 1590 miles from Rabaul.
At this stage, I would have liked to have been a fly on the cockpit wall because she has a BIG decision to make.... put it down on Tabiteuea or Nonouti and possibly wait weeks for someone to come and get her. Keep going to Ocean Island but she knows there is nowhere to put it down there. What about Nauru, no airstrip there either. Nukumanu, well, we can get there but we may have to ditch in the lagoon.
Economise, get high, use the power setting for the OAK-HNL flight when they slowed the Electra down, it will take time but they will get there, and be closer to civilisation and they may even get to Rabaul, they have at least 11 hours endurance.
If I have 150 G/S at the low power setting and I use 20 USGPH at 10,000 feet or slightly less at 12,000 feet and I have 235 USG left and 15 is unusable fuel, I can run for 11 hours and cover 1575 miles. Planning to fuel exhaustion is not everyone's cup of tea but as you can see from those figures she could just about make it.
What would you do ?
Regards,
Dave Billings
Last edited by David Billings; 25th Feb 2018 at 11:32.
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Barkly:
Yes, it certainly is.............
Port Morbid looms, PX, The Gateway, The Dero, The Roundhouse (for Chinese), maybe the Airways and a Sunday drink at the Bluff Inn.... I've promised myself a quick trip over to Madang on one of these excursions.....aaah Paradise !
Back in a week,
Dave Billings
Yes, it certainly is.............
Port Morbid looms, PX, The Gateway, The Dero, The Roundhouse (for Chinese), maybe the Airways and a Sunday drink at the Bluff Inn.... I've promised myself a quick trip over to Madang on one of these excursions.....aaah Paradise !
Back in a week,
Dave Billings
Grandpa Aerotart
Can't fault your logic Dave - except if she was flying at 10-12k how did she CFIT on ENB - fuel exhaustion is the only thing that occurs to me?
If she was DRing her way back to Rabaul in the dark wouldn't she have been transmitting on HF near constantly, as fuel ran out, thus someone would surely have heard something?
Accept what you say re the old Priest and his sister.
What are your thoughts on the striking resemblance between 'Irene' and Amelia, both physical and aircraft knowledge/personal contacts/languages spoken etc?
Is it just pure BS that 'Irene' existed and looked so much like AE that so many close personal friends wondered?
Those pictures, if not pure fabrication, are pretty compelling too...don't you think?
Wally Shirra has always struck me as a sane, thoughtful individual and he apparently believed she was alive into the 80s?
What about the Marshall Islands commemorative stamps issue in the 70s - Pure BS?
As to Jap soldiers etc remaining schtum post WW2 - I don't find that the least bit surprising. If she was held/chose to remain in Japan how many lower ranked Japs that may have had contact with her actually survived the war even if they knew who she was?
As to why someone like her would do such a 'strange' thing - well what about Howard Hughes, Lindberg and Neil Armstrong? Great people are sometimes flawed and do things that seem VERY strange to everyone else.
Eamon De Vallera?
If she was DRing her way back to Rabaul in the dark wouldn't she have been transmitting on HF near constantly, as fuel ran out, thus someone would surely have heard something?
Accept what you say re the old Priest and his sister.
What are your thoughts on the striking resemblance between 'Irene' and Amelia, both physical and aircraft knowledge/personal contacts/languages spoken etc?
Is it just pure BS that 'Irene' existed and looked so much like AE that so many close personal friends wondered?
Those pictures, if not pure fabrication, are pretty compelling too...don't you think?
Wally Shirra has always struck me as a sane, thoughtful individual and he apparently believed she was alive into the 80s?
What about the Marshall Islands commemorative stamps issue in the 70s - Pure BS?
As to Jap soldiers etc remaining schtum post WW2 - I don't find that the least bit surprising. If she was held/chose to remain in Japan how many lower ranked Japs that may have had contact with her actually survived the war even if they knew who she was?
As to why someone like her would do such a 'strange' thing - well what about Howard Hughes, Lindberg and Neil Armstrong? Great people are sometimes flawed and do things that seem VERY strange to everyone else.
Eamon De Vallera?
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Chimbu Chuckles:
Can't fault your logic Dave - except if she was flying at 10-12k how did she CFIT on ENB - fuel exhaustion is the only thing that occurs to me?
Correct, but it would not be controlled flight. Electra runs out of gas. See, you are thinking CFIT and you are not thinking to fuel exhaustion. I know it is difficult to do, I'm an ex-Flight Engineer but you have to put yourself in the cockpit, in 1937. It was "more" out of control than CFIT. It may have broken up in the air at the aft end as the Lieutenant cannot recall a Tail Section. As the hole in the canopy was small in comparison to a 59 foot wingspan aircraft and there had been some regrowth, obviously it went in steep. The props could not be feathered and on the Electra engines out of gas would hunt between coarse and fine as the oil pressure built up in a windmilling action and then dropped off as they slowed down on reaching coarse. It does not bear thinking about what would happen when they went out of synch. while they were fluctuating "Coarse"-"Fine"-"Coarse" and back again. Putting the pitch levers into "Fine" would be the only recourse but the drag from the windmilling would be enormous. I'd be surprised if it hasn't thrown a prop..... To maintain airspeed the nose would have to be shoved down.
If she was DRing her way back to Rabaul in the dark wouldn't she have been transmitting on HF near constantly, as fuel ran out, thus someone would surely have heard something?
Well, yes, you would think so. But you're not Earhart and her radio procedures were not quite ATC standard... as you've read. You have to say, she wasn't hearing anyone so she might have considered what was the point ?
Accept what you say re the old Priest and his sister.
It's only the old Monsignor and not his Sister Gertrude, she's no problem, she was sane, he wasn't sane in his dotage. Did you know about the flight in a P-51 that he said he had done ? What about Clark Gable trying out the first ejection seat in the U.S from a P-61 ? How about him shaving Earhart's bonce to check for microchips ? You obviously do not have the tape recording of the conversation between Rockin' Rollin Reineck and the Monsignor, you have an edited transcript....not the same. The tape opens up a whole new world on both of them, I assure you.
What are your thoughts on the striking resemblance between 'Irene' and Amelia, both physical and aircraft knowledge/personal contacts/languages spoken etc?
The photographs put out by a wannabee Film Producer based in Las Vegas and "paid for" by Rollin Reineck have been examined closely by a few people who are specialists in the field of "cranium identification" (I'm smiling here....) They have been found to not resemble several features of Earharts, wrinkles, blemishes, eye shape, mouth turn down at the corners etc, etc, etc. The guy that morphed Earhart into Bolam is a guy name Tod Swindell and the name sorta fits....if you get my drift. Personally, I think Irene Bolam "basked" in the sunshine of Earhart's fame to a certain extent and developed a sense of "presence". She was able to widely travel after she won the courtcase against McGraw-Hill books as below.....
Is it just pure BS that 'Irene' existed and looked so much like AE that so many close personal friends wondered?
Going on the evidence that she did work in a Bank in NYC during WWII and based on other little bits of information I would say "yes" it was BS. I blame the two "Yo-Yo's" for the Bolam nonsense, that is: Joe Gervais and Joe Klaas. Gervais has passed away but he did know the truth before he departed but never admitted it. It's PRIDE you know, catches us all out at some stage of our lives but with Gervais it was also mingled with a bit of arrogance in that he was respected by many as a genuine AE researcher and he didn't want to lose that. "Face" some call it. He was a USAF Command Pilot before they asked him to DCM (it is alleged). Klaas is a journalist and with Gervais, wrote an awful book called "Amelia Earhart Lives" which has so many mistakes in it the letters drop through the holes in the pages...... Klaas is a former "Eagle Squadron" member who flew a Spitfire in the Battle of Britain. He was a POW in a Stalag Luft in Deutchsland. I owe him that but not much else for he has muddied the waters (gleefully I might add) for years. Bolam sued McGraw-Hill over the book and the two "Yo-Yo's" stood in the dock wearing brown trousers.....just in case ! She won and was paid a considerable sum which allowed her to live the life she wanted.
Those pictures, if not pure fabrication, are pretty compelling too...don't you think?
No I do not.
Wally Shirra has always struck me as a sane, thoughtful individual and he apparently believed she was alive into the 80s?
That's his opinion.
What about the Marshall Islands commemorative stamps issue in the 70s - Pure BS?
Impoverished islands will do anything to raise capital, even if it is from stamp collectors.... Look at Nauru and the passport fiasco....
As to Jap soldiers etc remaining schtum post WW2 - I don't find that the least bit surprising. If she was held/chose to remain in Japan how many lower ranked Japs that may have had contact with her actually survived the war even if they knew who she was?
May they Schtik (Dutch word) if they do know and won't speak out. In any case, she wasn't there.
As to why someone like her would do such a 'strange' thing - well what about Howard Hughes, Lindberg and Neil Armstrong? Great people are sometimes flawed and do things that seem VERY strange to everyone else.
Howard Hughes had more problems than my dogs fleas. If you'd have been living with Ava Gardner and she walked, wouldn't you be traumatised (?), I know I would. And what about being soooh close to Jane Russell, I mean it would drive you nuts wouldn't it designing bras to keep them under wraps ! THEN he had all those money problems... and PanAm and all ze wimmen....better to lie low and let the Mormons look after it all....
Earhart loved her Mother, she was probably a little ambivalent about George but her family was all-important to her and she would not disappear like that. All these romantic and outlandish tales are what people dream up.
She tried to fly around the world, she failed. As a last ditch effort she tried to save the aircraft, herself and Noonan, she came close but she failed. End of Story.
Eamon De Vallera?
Now I know for sure that you do not have the Audio of the Kelley-Reineck conversation..... There is a passage at the start where the Monsignor is saying that he went to see the Emperor....in Jappan... (bear with me, this is from memory): NOTE: You have to read this in a shaky voice.....
"....he was their king, watyamacallit...their God....The Emperor.... He said he would let Brigadier Keane go and .....he would let Amelia go.... It was the time when Eisenhower left all the troops over there...."
At this point Reineck says: "Yuh-yuh-yuh-yuh mean MacEisenhower....or MacArthur...."
"Yes, Mac, Mac, Mac-MacArthur was it, I dunno, whatever, anyway, I brought out Amelia and this guy Eamonn De Valera... he was the 'er Emperor of Ireland...."
"This house at Rumson was built by Queen Victoria and for three years I assisted in the execution...er...the administartion of London....her daughters all stayed here...."
"I went to meet The Spirit of San Louee (French pronunciation) at Paris, he'd planned to go to Ireland but ended up in Paris and the Cardinal asked me to go as there was no one there to meet him...."
There were thousands at Paris to meet Lindberg........ and so it goes on.
Chuckles if you believe all that now, you will not believe it when you hear the audio.
email me with your address and when I get back I'll send you the audio (if I can).
Regards,
Dave Billings
Can't fault your logic Dave - except if she was flying at 10-12k how did she CFIT on ENB - fuel exhaustion is the only thing that occurs to me?
Correct, but it would not be controlled flight. Electra runs out of gas. See, you are thinking CFIT and you are not thinking to fuel exhaustion. I know it is difficult to do, I'm an ex-Flight Engineer but you have to put yourself in the cockpit, in 1937. It was "more" out of control than CFIT. It may have broken up in the air at the aft end as the Lieutenant cannot recall a Tail Section. As the hole in the canopy was small in comparison to a 59 foot wingspan aircraft and there had been some regrowth, obviously it went in steep. The props could not be feathered and on the Electra engines out of gas would hunt between coarse and fine as the oil pressure built up in a windmilling action and then dropped off as they slowed down on reaching coarse. It does not bear thinking about what would happen when they went out of synch. while they were fluctuating "Coarse"-"Fine"-"Coarse" and back again. Putting the pitch levers into "Fine" would be the only recourse but the drag from the windmilling would be enormous. I'd be surprised if it hasn't thrown a prop..... To maintain airspeed the nose would have to be shoved down.
If she was DRing her way back to Rabaul in the dark wouldn't she have been transmitting on HF near constantly, as fuel ran out, thus someone would surely have heard something?
Well, yes, you would think so. But you're not Earhart and her radio procedures were not quite ATC standard... as you've read. You have to say, she wasn't hearing anyone so she might have considered what was the point ?
Accept what you say re the old Priest and his sister.
It's only the old Monsignor and not his Sister Gertrude, she's no problem, she was sane, he wasn't sane in his dotage. Did you know about the flight in a P-51 that he said he had done ? What about Clark Gable trying out the first ejection seat in the U.S from a P-61 ? How about him shaving Earhart's bonce to check for microchips ? You obviously do not have the tape recording of the conversation between Rockin' Rollin Reineck and the Monsignor, you have an edited transcript....not the same. The tape opens up a whole new world on both of them, I assure you.
What are your thoughts on the striking resemblance between 'Irene' and Amelia, both physical and aircraft knowledge/personal contacts/languages spoken etc?
The photographs put out by a wannabee Film Producer based in Las Vegas and "paid for" by Rollin Reineck have been examined closely by a few people who are specialists in the field of "cranium identification" (I'm smiling here....) They have been found to not resemble several features of Earharts, wrinkles, blemishes, eye shape, mouth turn down at the corners etc, etc, etc. The guy that morphed Earhart into Bolam is a guy name Tod Swindell and the name sorta fits....if you get my drift. Personally, I think Irene Bolam "basked" in the sunshine of Earhart's fame to a certain extent and developed a sense of "presence". She was able to widely travel after she won the courtcase against McGraw-Hill books as below.....
Is it just pure BS that 'Irene' existed and looked so much like AE that so many close personal friends wondered?
Going on the evidence that she did work in a Bank in NYC during WWII and based on other little bits of information I would say "yes" it was BS. I blame the two "Yo-Yo's" for the Bolam nonsense, that is: Joe Gervais and Joe Klaas. Gervais has passed away but he did know the truth before he departed but never admitted it. It's PRIDE you know, catches us all out at some stage of our lives but with Gervais it was also mingled with a bit of arrogance in that he was respected by many as a genuine AE researcher and he didn't want to lose that. "Face" some call it. He was a USAF Command Pilot before they asked him to DCM (it is alleged). Klaas is a journalist and with Gervais, wrote an awful book called "Amelia Earhart Lives" which has so many mistakes in it the letters drop through the holes in the pages...... Klaas is a former "Eagle Squadron" member who flew a Spitfire in the Battle of Britain. He was a POW in a Stalag Luft in Deutchsland. I owe him that but not much else for he has muddied the waters (gleefully I might add) for years. Bolam sued McGraw-Hill over the book and the two "Yo-Yo's" stood in the dock wearing brown trousers.....just in case ! She won and was paid a considerable sum which allowed her to live the life she wanted.
Those pictures, if not pure fabrication, are pretty compelling too...don't you think?
No I do not.
Wally Shirra has always struck me as a sane, thoughtful individual and he apparently believed she was alive into the 80s?
That's his opinion.
What about the Marshall Islands commemorative stamps issue in the 70s - Pure BS?
Impoverished islands will do anything to raise capital, even if it is from stamp collectors.... Look at Nauru and the passport fiasco....
As to Jap soldiers etc remaining schtum post WW2 - I don't find that the least bit surprising. If she was held/chose to remain in Japan how many lower ranked Japs that may have had contact with her actually survived the war even if they knew who she was?
May they Schtik (Dutch word) if they do know and won't speak out. In any case, she wasn't there.
As to why someone like her would do such a 'strange' thing - well what about Howard Hughes, Lindberg and Neil Armstrong? Great people are sometimes flawed and do things that seem VERY strange to everyone else.
Howard Hughes had more problems than my dogs fleas. If you'd have been living with Ava Gardner and she walked, wouldn't you be traumatised (?), I know I would. And what about being soooh close to Jane Russell, I mean it would drive you nuts wouldn't it designing bras to keep them under wraps ! THEN he had all those money problems... and PanAm and all ze wimmen....better to lie low and let the Mormons look after it all....
Earhart loved her Mother, she was probably a little ambivalent about George but her family was all-important to her and she would not disappear like that. All these romantic and outlandish tales are what people dream up.
She tried to fly around the world, she failed. As a last ditch effort she tried to save the aircraft, herself and Noonan, she came close but she failed. End of Story.
Eamon De Vallera?
Now I know for sure that you do not have the Audio of the Kelley-Reineck conversation..... There is a passage at the start where the Monsignor is saying that he went to see the Emperor....in Jappan... (bear with me, this is from memory): NOTE: You have to read this in a shaky voice.....
"....he was their king, watyamacallit...their God....The Emperor.... He said he would let Brigadier Keane go and .....he would let Amelia go.... It was the time when Eisenhower left all the troops over there...."
At this point Reineck says: "Yuh-yuh-yuh-yuh mean MacEisenhower....or MacArthur...."
"Yes, Mac, Mac, Mac-MacArthur was it, I dunno, whatever, anyway, I brought out Amelia and this guy Eamonn De Valera... he was the 'er Emperor of Ireland...."
"This house at Rumson was built by Queen Victoria and for three years I assisted in the execution...er...the administartion of London....her daughters all stayed here...."
"I went to meet The Spirit of San Louee (French pronunciation) at Paris, he'd planned to go to Ireland but ended up in Paris and the Cardinal asked me to go as there was no one there to meet him...."
There were thousands at Paris to meet Lindberg........ and so it goes on.
Chuckles if you believe all that now, you will not believe it when you hear the audio.
email me with your address and when I get back I'll send you the audio (if I can).
Regards,
Dave Billings
Last edited by David Billings; 25th Feb 2018 at 11:38.
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Having flown the Nauru to Tarawa and Tarawa to Fiji route many times in the Eighties, as well as Tarawa to Christmas Island on a couple of occasions and wondered about the missing Electra, it was clear that much of the time in good weather that the shadows under the thousands of small fluffy cumulus clouds that cover the Pacific ocean in those latitudes, make it almost impossible to identify a small atoll from a cloud shadow. The cloud shadow comes out as a tiny dark smudge on the ocean.
It wouldn't take much of a navigational error of a few miles to miss a planned destination with those small clouds just above the ocean. My guess is tops 3000 and base 1500 ft and lower in heavy rain showers. Throw in fatigue from flying all night and hand flying then you would be lucky to be able to maintain a compass heading of plus or minus 5-10 degrees on an average. Toss in gyroscopic precession and trying to synchronise a directional gyro every 15 minutes or so with a wavering magnetic compass then it would be easy to be 50 miles off track in a 1000 miles. Even if they got within 25 miles from Howland Island I doubt if the atoll would be seen if surrounded by those fluffy little white Cu..
It wouldn't take much of a navigational error of a few miles to miss a planned destination with those small clouds just above the ocean. My guess is tops 3000 and base 1500 ft and lower in heavy rain showers. Throw in fatigue from flying all night and hand flying then you would be lucky to be able to maintain a compass heading of plus or minus 5-10 degrees on an average. Toss in gyroscopic precession and trying to synchronise a directional gyro every 15 minutes or so with a wavering magnetic compass then it would be easy to be 50 miles off track in a 1000 miles. Even if they got within 25 miles from Howland Island I doubt if the atoll would be seen if surrounded by those fluffy little white Cu..
Last edited by A37575; 27th Jul 2009 at 15:06.
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Amelia Earhart Project in PNG
A37575:
Precisely.
I have written in the website, that trans-Pacific pilots have been telling me exactly what you say since I started enquiring about the Wx out there in 1994. The few PX pilots that have done the ferry jobs from the West coast of the USA have been particularly helpful.
The other thing that should not be forgotten is that in those days Navigators could never tell you "where you are", they could only tell you "where you had been" due to the lag in running the numbers. Noonan also had a habit of only doing a shot every two to three hours and a lot can change in that time.
On her flight, night flying started at around 0730GMT and persisted until she was past the Gilberts until about 1800GMT,over ten hours of darkness.
Throw in all you say about Pacific Wx and combine it with Earhart's radio Tx's of "cloudy and overcast" which started at 1415GMT and you can imagine that Noonan with his experience would probably be mouthing under his breath at Earhart's "press-on-itis". We don't know "how long" it had been cloudy and overcast since she had not been heard since 1030GMT but she said it again after 1415GMT so it had persisted. My plot has them still a long way out when the dawn came at Howland.
When he found the wind at Nukumanu to be 26mph, double the low-end forecast he must have wondered ."...what the hell are we getting into here" and when they were late at the USCG Ontario something should have told them to call it quits and return to Lae and wait for the dawn. The Groundspeeds should have flagged the warning.
Regards,
Dave Billings
Precisely.
I have written in the website, that trans-Pacific pilots have been telling me exactly what you say since I started enquiring about the Wx out there in 1994. The few PX pilots that have done the ferry jobs from the West coast of the USA have been particularly helpful.
The other thing that should not be forgotten is that in those days Navigators could never tell you "where you are", they could only tell you "where you had been" due to the lag in running the numbers. Noonan also had a habit of only doing a shot every two to three hours and a lot can change in that time.
On her flight, night flying started at around 0730GMT and persisted until she was past the Gilberts until about 1800GMT,over ten hours of darkness.
Throw in all you say about Pacific Wx and combine it with Earhart's radio Tx's of "cloudy and overcast" which started at 1415GMT and you can imagine that Noonan with his experience would probably be mouthing under his breath at Earhart's "press-on-itis". We don't know "how long" it had been cloudy and overcast since she had not been heard since 1030GMT but she said it again after 1415GMT so it had persisted. My plot has them still a long way out when the dawn came at Howland.
When he found the wind at Nukumanu to be 26mph, double the low-end forecast he must have wondered ."...what the hell are we getting into here" and when they were late at the USCG Ontario something should have told them to call it quits and return to Lae and wait for the dawn. The Groundspeeds should have flagged the warning.
Regards,
Dave Billings
Last edited by David Billings; 25th Feb 2018 at 11:40.
DB
You are probably right about DS - he's certainly a hands-on type of individual
I endorse Martin.Sacklage's suggestion re Paypal donation via your website though ........ a bit of publicity and hopefully the $$$$ will start flowing in.
You are probably right about DS - he's certainly a hands-on type of individual
I endorse Martin.Sacklage's suggestion re Paypal donation via your website though ........ a bit of publicity and hopefully the $$$$ will start flowing in.
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Article today, maybe it was yesterday, in one of the major U. S. news media--ABC TV website, I think--about Ric Gillespie preparing to take TIGHAR back to Nikumaroru in search of AE's DNA, which apparently can be retrieved not simply from remains but from anything she might have touched or worn, assuming it is absolutely and carefully handled and not contaminated.
Good luck to him, I say, having worked with Ric for a brief while on the search for l'Oiseau Blanc in Maine, which I wrote about for Air & Space Smithsonian. Also wrote there a relatively long article about his initial Gardner Island searches...
Stephan Wilkinson
Good luck to him, I say, having worked with Ric for a brief while on the search for l'Oiseau Blanc in Maine, which I wrote about for Air & Space Smithsonian. Also wrote there a relatively long article about his initial Gardner Island searches...
Stephan Wilkinson
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God, I dunno, you'll have to do some kind of search. I had the cover story ("Biplanes") in the very first issue of A&S and wrote for them steadily for the next 20 years or so. Dozens and dozens of articles.
If it's supercritical and you can't find it just by Googling my name or whatever kind of search A&S will allow, I'll crawl into the attic and retrieve my clip files. Lemme know, but crawling into the attic is harder than crawling into the Internet...
If it's supercritical and you can't find it just by Googling my name or whatever kind of search A&S will allow, I'll crawl into the attic and retrieve my clip files. Lemme know, but crawling into the attic is harder than crawling into the Internet...
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A general misconception
After reviewing the various posts here, a few corrections about the Amelia Earhart disappearance case are needed. For one, notwithstanding what people think or say, it does appear the White House per an admission by FDR Cabinet member Morgenthau in May of 1938, withheld certain information about Earhart and Noonan's final disposition. Also, no matter what people feel, say, believe... whatever, and no matter how authoritative a person might sound, the simple truth is after forty years of debate the Earhart issue, where the three persons historically identified as one in the same Irene Craigmile (to include the 1945-1982 identified one who became 'Bolam' by marriage in 1958) has NEVER been resolved. National Geographic tabled it as 'Unsolved History' by virtue of its program title. Yet even National Geo admits they only presented the case in brevity, and their MO is to always approach the Amelia Earhart case as a 'historically unresolved topic.' So much being understood, be it known no one has ever forensically disproved the equation of Amelia Earhart surving and changing her name to one of three historically identified Irene Craigmile's. Head to toe physically with handwriting & voice..., the 1945-1982 identified Irene who appears nowhere in photos identified as Irene prior to the 1940s, still, possibly was, the former Amelia Earhart. It infuriates adversarial Earhart enthusiasts to admit this to themselves and others, but facts are facts. The debate about one of the Irene's true pasts began in 1970 and it's still going strong today. However, because official history has always refused to address it (AKA 'official silence') the press has always remained stand-offish about it. One will never find a Woodward and Bernstein seriously investigating Earhart's loss. Today's national news moguls would never permit it. The Earhart mystery exists because it's supposed to exist. Official U. S. history designed it that way. It would mark an incredible revelation to advance it in any direction, ever. Tighar's recent dna claim will once again end as a false hype too. They've been advancing such a connect-the-dots story about AE for many years. Of course, the Ameircan public is gullible to believe almost anything formally presented AE mystery wise, unless it seems incredibly hard to believe.
Grandpa Aerotart
No, Dave I accept what you say - no need to send the recording. How could I not trust you when we are both ex PX?
Mind you 'da bois' did make a direct and premeditated attempt on my life once in a F28 - left a set of wheel speed generators on the bench after a gear leg change
Although perhaps you retired just before the era of gear legs snapping off F28s and wheel speed generators just not re installed, engine/apu fires etc etc...it got a bit sporting for a while there in 98/99 on the F28 fleet
Never knew that about the Electra - the non feathering props
Mind you SHE knew it. Very strange - so many options east of ENB. I flew up there for years before GPS came along - DRing around the SWP in Queenairs, C402s, Islanders etc - sometimes at night - hollow feeling sometimes when the only aid was an NDB which, if working at all, had a range of < 40nm and your ADF needle would MUCH rather point at any number of lightning discharges happening around the horizon. I used to think that was 'fun'
Mind you 'da bois' did make a direct and premeditated attempt on my life once in a F28 - left a set of wheel speed generators on the bench after a gear leg change
Although perhaps you retired just before the era of gear legs snapping off F28s and wheel speed generators just not re installed, engine/apu fires etc etc...it got a bit sporting for a while there in 98/99 on the F28 fleet
Never knew that about the Electra - the non feathering props
Mind you SHE knew it. Very strange - so many options east of ENB. I flew up there for years before GPS came along - DRing around the SWP in Queenairs, C402s, Islanders etc - sometimes at night - hollow feeling sometimes when the only aid was an NDB which, if working at all, had a range of < 40nm and your ADF needle would MUCH rather point at any number of lightning discharges happening around the horizon. I used to think that was 'fun'
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There is no such thing as "Tighar's recent DNA claim." They have "claimed" nothing. Gillespie has simply said that they will return to Nikimaroru armed with serious advice on how to retrieve DNA samples without contaminating them, and will attempt to find an object of some sort that would have been handled by its "owner" and will compare DNA thus harvested to that of an acknowledged Earhart-family descendant.
I'm sure Ric Gillespie would admit that the DNA for all he knows will turn out to match that of Judge Crater.
Hard to respect the rest of what J5 writes if he gets this so wrong.
I'm sure Ric Gillespie would admit that the DNA for all he knows will turn out to match that of Judge Crater.
Hard to respect the rest of what J5 writes if he gets this so wrong.
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Tighar's "non" DNA claim...
Then news wire services have it wrong. I'm just conveying what has been issued. There have been several national news blurb posts in the last couple of days about the Earhart mystery possibly being solved based on Tighar's announcement of DNA it was tracking linked to Nikumororo... that it felt might possibly match Earhart's. When a national news wire service announces such a thing, the collective Earhart novice-curious segue into a tizzy. Based on all previous reports conveyed, and numerous past Tighar press releases, one might believe since the 1980s the entire reason Tighar has been so heavily investing in and exploring its Nikumororo theory, (even 'claiming' to have solved the mystery in the early 1990s that it certainly did not do) has to do with its belief and assertion Earhart ended up there. The only reason they would press any DNA idea would be to see if it did or didn't match Earhart's, and so much is bound to arouse some innocent newsworthy curiosity. I guess that's all I'm saying.
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Wrong again--you, J5, not the wire services. Gillespie thought that he might be able to retrieve DNA from objects such as a makeup-compact mirror Tighar had brought back from Nik, but he learned that it had been irretrievably contaminated during the collection process. He never claimed that it _did_ hold AE's DNA. Tighar will be going back to the island next spring to try and find objects that they can reliably have sampled for DNA.
I don't know who reported that Tighar was tracking AE's DNA--certainly not Ric--because they know it's not possible to do with the objects they have.
Why are you saying, "Then news wire services have it wrong," and then quoting "national news blurbs" that themselves have it wrong?
I don't know who reported that Tighar was tracking AE's DNA--certainly not Ric--because they know it's not possible to do with the objects they have.
Why are you saying, "Then news wire services have it wrong," and then quoting "national news blurbs" that themselves have it wrong?
Silly Old Git
Wiki
There is also motion picture evidence that a belly antenna on the Electra may have snapped on takeoff (the purpose of this antenna has not been identified and radio communications seemed normal as they climbed away from Lae).[8][9]
Does anyone know what this was?
There is also motion picture evidence that a belly antenna on the Electra may have snapped on takeoff (the purpose of this antenna has not been identified and radio communications seemed normal as they climbed away from Lae).[8][9]
Does anyone know what this was?
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The radiomen on the Coast Guard cutter Itaska reported that Amelia was coming through very loud and clear, but she did not seem to be hearing their replies.
I guess, therefore, that the missing belly aerial was for the receiver.
BTW that clip is not the take off from Lae.
There is a film in existence, though, which is of the last take off of the Earhart Electra, and recent analysis of it shows what looks like puffs of dust behind the plane as it rolled down the strip at Lae. These apparent puffs have been interpreted as the mast at the loose end of the aerial wire bouncing along the surface. The rear belly aerial mast had only a few inches of ground clearance and could have been snagged as the the plane swung around to line up.
I think there is documentary evidence from the time that a length of wire was found at Lae airport after Earhart and Noonan left. It was not merely someone's recollection.
I guess, therefore, that the missing belly aerial was for the receiver.
BTW that clip is not the take off from Lae.
There is a film in existence, though, which is of the last take off of the Earhart Electra, and recent analysis of it shows what looks like puffs of dust behind the plane as it rolled down the strip at Lae. These apparent puffs have been interpreted as the mast at the loose end of the aerial wire bouncing along the surface. The rear belly aerial mast had only a few inches of ground clearance and could have been snagged as the the plane swung around to line up.
I think there is documentary evidence from the time that a length of wire was found at Lae airport after Earhart and Noonan left. It was not merely someone's recollection.