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Amelia Earhart PNG Theory

Old 5th Mar 2018, 09:24
  #201 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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VH-MDX and Magnetometer

https://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-nig...vh-mdx-part-2/

This gives you an idea of what was tried by one search VH-MDX group who tried to use a magnetometer. Its a TV program so dramaticised etc. I'm sure that people will have their own views on the method etc.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 09:34
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
would the magnetos provide some signal? Also the crank on a radial is going to be wrather short compared to an inline engine.. Is the magnetometer signal a function of geometry as well as mass?

If 20m range on a wasp crankshaft could be reliably demonstrated would it be technically possible ( not necessarily financially) to grid the area into 20 x 20 squares and "dip' the magnetometer as in dipping sonar from a helo?
Yes, the engine including magnetos is from my understanding the main source of the ferrous material that a magnotomter will react to in an aircraft wreck. Maybe geometry is a factor but its mass, the size of the magnetic body, that is the limiting factor with this method (so far) when looking for a small aricraft wreckage.

There are a number of aircraft wrecks in and around the Barringtons in various conditions that could be used as test sites. Feel free to go looking! The more the better and hopefully one day someone can identfy a technology that can be shown to work and be used to find these types of wrecks.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 09:50
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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Reference: First Principal #119 Post

LiDAR will detect a metallic object if it is above ground, it shows as a bright spot (a good reflection), easily picked out. I stress LiDAR because LiDAR would give me a picture of the ground. I would then be able to see where the bulldozer featured in 'my' quest had been working.... in order to assess what changes had been made to the uppermost 'crust' of the earth.

Surely if an idiot BD driver buried it, with LiDAR and the results of a large machine working in the area, I would be able to see changes to the surface of the hill, changes to the natural flow, if you like,

Obviously, if I had known about LiDAR and had it been available in 1994, I would have considered it. Hindsight is a good thing, when you can afford it,

Last edited by David Billings; 5th Mar 2018 at 18:38.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 20:13
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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@MJA Chaser: Thanks for the link, I've had a look at the video on the MDX search and from what I glean from that there's no indication that the equipment isn't working as they would hope. I have also located some useful data on the equipment shown, this may be the portable device they're using however.

You may have further inside detail though? Has the search been completed? Any idea on testing they carried out prior to the survey?

@Sunfish: There's a reasonable amount of material in a Wasp engine, as well as the ancillary mounts and other gear pertinent to the aircraft as a whole. There are possibly two engines in close proximity, although that may not be the case depending upon what aircraft it actually is, what happened at the time and any intervening 'works' that may have occurred. In any event I'd like to think there's sufficient to detect at the sort of distances we're thinking of. The magneto's would assist insofar as they add to the mass of material, but they're not likely to be instrumental in anything - particularly not at the range this is likely to be at.

@David Billings: As I write I'm looking at a LiDAR survey of one of my properties. It shows the ground contour as one would expect, but it does not show objects upon the ground. This is most likely a higher-level survey than you're considering but, particularly if the craft is buried, I think the best you could expect would be (as you say) to locate the 'dozer workings and hope that leads you to the area you'd like to inspect in detail. I'm doubtful you'd get much more?

I hope to have a little time today to further some research, if anything comes of that I'll post the detail.

FP.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 21:40
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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"What LiDAR does show"

FP says : "As I write I'm looking at a LiDAR survey ...... It shows the ground contour as one would expect, but it does not show objects upon the ground. This is most likely a higher-level survey than you're considering but, particularly if the craft is buried, I think the best you could expect would be (as you say) to locate the 'dozer workings and hope that leads you to the area you'd like to inspect in detail......."

I have some LiDAR pictures in greyscale of a mine site in the northern hemisphere and it shows the vehicle tracks, earthworks and minesite buildings and dams very clearly. We would be interested in the bulldozer tracks and as you say they hopefully would lead to an area or areas where intensive earth moving has occurred. That was all we could wish for.

We know that the BD driver made cuttings along the track where there were lumpy irregularities and we know he filled in some depressions all in order to smooth the way a little for the jinker when carrying logs, so the cuttings will show up as would piles of moved earth.
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Old 6th Mar 2018, 19:23
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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David; that's good, I was a little concerned someone may have led you to believe you'd get more than that from LiDAR.

Although you've not said exactly where this site is on the island I had a look via Google and one could see some tracks around the place. I assume these are not the tracks in question and that there's no historical aerial photography that could assist?

Yesterday was a washout (literally, bad wx) and although I had time on an airfield I wasn't able to run any magnetometer tests. Did find some Wasp bits in the garage though...

Next week perhaps.

FP.
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Old 6th Mar 2018, 19:36
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by First_Principal View Post
@MJA Chaser: Thanks for the link, I've had a look at the video on the MDX search and from what I glean from that there's no indication that the equipment isn't working as they would hope. I have also located some useful data on the equipment shown, this may be the portable device they're using however.

You may have further inside detail though? Has the search been completed? Any idea on testing they carried out prior to the survey?

FP.
Hi FP. Thats correct the TV show didnt show everything. VH-MDX hasnt yet been found so the search continues. There are several groups undertaking various searches based on various information they have each come up with.

For further details on the magnetometer stuff try contacting that group directly. The information I have on this is limited and partly second hand.

MJA Chaser
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Old 6th Mar 2018, 20:31
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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I’ve not said exactly where this site is...

First Principal in post # 206 says:

“Although you've not said exactly where this site is on the island I had a look via Google and one could see some tracks around the place. I assume these are not the tracks in question and that there's no historical aerial photography that could assist ?”

Well, I have not said exactly where we are looking on New Britain Island, in the province of East New Britain, nor will I...... but I have said enough clues in past posts for anyone to get a general idea of the problem we face with remoteness and the ever-loving Jungle....

For instance, in Post #97 on 20th April 2017 I said, in this thread, among a lot of other things:

"In the website I speak of a return path back to NUKUMANU Atoll and thence onward towards New Britain passing overhead Mortlock Island (T'au Group) and Carteret Reef and if that line is continued to the West, it does actually make landfall on New Britain at Wide Bay and pass over the area where we have been searching since 1994."

The only really historical aerial photo I have is the 1943 one and there are no tracks shown on that. I have an aerial I took myself in 1995 showing the development of the logging tracks in the area but I am not about to post that.

I have previously described the area as the 38 kilometre wide "neck" between the main part of New Britain Island and the Gazelle Peninsular. The website itself includes a WWII map which anybody interested enough can locate on New Britain.

Take it from me that the search area has encompassed quite a large area of the hinterland behind the coast of Wide Bay and my Team and I have been into areas in there where the local people have never been. We have seen things they have never seen. We have even taken a short cut through the innards of an extinct volcano in there where we followed a lava pipe out which had black marble walls and in there we saw a frog which has claws, something a "frogologist" at an Australian University told me was impossible, "Frogs do not have claws", he said....this one in there did have claws.

I think I have given enough clues for people to work out the general area where we go.

David Billings
www.earhartsearchpng.com
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Old 7th Mar 2018, 05:26
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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Hello David, I must confess to being slightly bemused by your response - why wouldn't you say where the area is?

My comment re location was mostly in passing and by way of discussion and enquiry regarding what resource was, or might be, available for this area, I didn't realise it was a secret.

I can understand that you've spent a lot of your life researching this, that you're passionate about it, and that you would be devastated if someone else were to get there before you, so to speak. However I suspect it could make it much easier for people to assist if they did have a clear knowledge of the location, and any other relevant detail. Innuendo is all very well but it can be time consuming, off-putting, and the interpretation could be wrong. Could it also be why some people choose not to contribute, as I've seen you comment on?

Personally I've no particular desire to go there, I'm a lot further away than you are in any event and it would be unlikely to be helpful, but I am prepared to put up some professional time, expertise, and IP into the public domain where this might assist you or anyone else in searching for a downed 'plane. Whilst this is a individual philosophy I think it behooves us to consider that in the matter of another's life and property we should do the best we can to restore these things as much as is possible. If this means that a collegial or public effort could make a difference then why wouldn't one make all information available?

FP.
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Old 7th Mar 2018, 05:28
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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New species of frog. Billingsia perhaps?
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Old 7th Mar 2018, 06:47
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Slightly bemused...!

First Principal says:

"Hello David, I must confess to being slightly bemused by your response - why wouldn't you say where the area is?"

I have said where I think it is.... in the hinterland of Wide Bay

....and if you recall earlier posts that I have made I have said we are presently looking about one mile away from where the wreck of the B-17 41-2429 is located. It does not take an African Witch Doctor to find out where that wreck lies.... by the Powell River, locally called "Mumus".

That puts "our looking" within a circle of one mile radius.

I personally do not know where the crash site is which was seen by the Army Patrol, that's why I am still looking.

You say: "Could it also be why some people choose not to contribute, as I've seen you comment on?"

Yes, indeed, I have asked for monetary assistance but I am not expecting thousands of dollars from this thread, every little but of help does help.... as I have said, for we are always on a tight budget and a little extra gets us some extras to make life a bit more comfortable or to buy items of equipment.

That is up to them, to give or not give.... no-one has a gun to their pocket and it was some people on here who asked for the PayPal button in any case. Believe me, I do not like to be a beggar and that is what I have become by putting a PayPal button on my website. The actual results of the PayPal button tell another story....

The $125 (Australian Dollars) [less 3.9%] from two people as a direct result of this thread will translate into 4 Steel garden spades and maybe a fuel container for two stroke, and maybe a couple of thin foam pads for two tents, that will see that money gone.

So now in order for me not to be a beggar on this thread anymore, I withdraw my request for monetary assistance by readers of this thread... You don't have to even consider it anymore.

So I too am sort of bemused...

As regards "where it is"..... Why would anyone in their right mind tell anybody exactly where they were going to look when they have researched the subject matter for 24 years and made many visits to the area learning and learning and learning....at great expense.

Would you ?

Last edited by David Billings; 7th Mar 2018 at 08:38.
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Old 7th Mar 2018, 07:01
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by First_Principal View Post
Hello David, I must confess to being slightly bemused by your response - why wouldn't you say where the area is?

My comment re location was mostly in passing and by way of discussion and enquiry regarding what resource was, or might be, available for this area, I didn't realise it was a secret.

I can understand that you've spent a lot of your life researching this, that you're passionate about it, and that you would be devastated if someone else were to get there before you, so to speak. However I suspect it could make it much easier for people to assist if they did have a clear knowledge of the location, and any other relevant detail. Innuendo is all very well but it can be time consuming, off-putting, and the interpretation could be wrong. Could it also be why some people choose not to contribute, as I've seen you comment on?

Personally I've no particular desire to go there, I'm a lot further away than you are in any event and it would be unlikely to be helpful, but I am prepared to put up some professional time, expertise, and IP into the public domain where this might assist you or anyone else in searching for a downed 'plane. Whilst this is a individual philosophy I think it behooves us to consider that in the matter of another's life and property we should do the best we can to restore these things as much as is possible. If this means that a collegial or public effort could make a difference then why wouldn't one make all information available?

FP.
Based on the experiences of other explorers, D. B. is well within his rights to keep the search area secret. If he finds the wreck, the film, book and TV rights to the discovery are astronomically valuable. James Cameron parlayed Emory Christpohs filming of Titanic into a movie and the discovery of Earhart sets the stage for a sequel. I cant post now, but I'm aware of the shenanigans that went on when Ballard found Titanic. This could end up similarly.
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Old 7th Mar 2018, 07:56
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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@David Billings: Would I [tell anyone where to look]? Perhaps, for the greater good, I might. But then, I can be dispassionate about this whereas you've spent a good deal of your life on the project - which is why felt I could understand something of your feelings on the matter...

Anyway I rarely venture into philosophy on here (or at least I try not to!), it doesn't necessarily contribute as I'd wish, something I need reminding of from time to time, thanks. Apropos of this I will continue the mag work I'm able to do and if something useful comes of it I'll let you know. Otherwise thanks for the headsup on the location, I guess in some rather odd way that helps one to feel a little closer to what you're doing.

@Sunfish: I wouldn't presume to speak for David but I've never had the feeling he was in it for money - my questions and comments were genuinely about how best one might achieve the goal of locating whatever aircraft is out there?
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Old 7th Mar 2018, 08:36
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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Missing Aircrew,...

FP says: "...I wouldn't presume to speak for David but I've never had the feeling he was in it for money..."

Well, you are right there, not that I'd turn down a few more sheckels at my time of life.

I was crew on a helicopter which went down into trees in Borneo in November 1967.... I wondered then who would have come looking for me ?

Since then I have had a soft spot for missing aircrew and working in Papua New Guinea, as I was then, from 1987 on, was the place to be if that is your interest. It still is....heaps of missing aircraft and crews in PNG.

I blame my wife for this particular one... it was she who saw a tiny news article at Christmas 1993, about the possibility of AE being on New Britain.....

Last edited by David Billings; 7th Mar 2018 at 09:45.
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Old 7th Mar 2018, 20:02
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David, I see several possibly interesting sources of data; Sam Lawson may have some useful knowledge of the logging operation you're interested in, could be worth a call:

https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/f...ineaLawson.pdf

And the National Library, and ANU, appear to have a range of aerial photographs dating from 1941. Possibly they're the same original source, and may not be of use, but you never know what might turn up when old boxes of photographs are unearthed:

Papua New Guinea aerial photographs - Archives

[Papua New Guinea aerial photographs]

Also I saw some reference to a pre-WWII aerial survey of some sort, it may not have covered the area in question but again you never know. Likewise there appears to be some WWII archived photography of New Britain, some of this may be available via:

Aerial photographs - Fact sheet 191 ? National Archives of Australia, Australian Government

I expect you'll have been to all of these places long before, so apologies if I'm covering well-worn ground...

FP.
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Old 8th Mar 2018, 04:59
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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TIGHAR's latest findings in the news today...

https://www.theage.com.au/world/nort...08-p4z3hc.html
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Old 8th Mar 2018, 05:27
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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That report seems remarkably ambiguous; taking a DNA sample today is de rigueur for this sort of thing, I wonder why they've not done this?

Perhaps it's yet to come, certainly should be possible as Richard III's a little older and it worked for him!

FP.
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Old 8th Mar 2018, 07:32
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You should be able to get DNA out of bone. I have heard though if there's a lack of marrow, it does become more difficult. If there's remaining family members (pretty sure there is), they could possibly match it.

https://askabiologist.asu.edu/hunt-dna

You'd think they would have done this already. I can't help but feel that they don't want to, as they may feel that their case isn't that strong...
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Old 8th Mar 2018, 08:30
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The bones are no longer available for DNA analysis.

The bones, revisited in the study "Amelia Earhart and the Nikumaroro Bones" by University of Tennessee professor Richard Jantz, were discarded.
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Old 8th Mar 2018, 13:18
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I have already received mail on this , just as I did when the “original” Burns and Jantz report appeared some years ago. I didn’t really want to get into this “Bones” business brought on by TIGHAR again, because it really is like shining a torch into a curved railway tunnel, you can’t see round the bend and end up going round it yourself….

TIGHAR: The Gardner Island Bones

In 1940, the resident Colonial Officer on Gardner Island reported to his superiors, that he was in possession of some bones and he sent them to the British Colonial Office on Tarawa in The Gilbert Islands and from there they were sent to Fiji where a British Doctor named Hoodless became the only person to examine them in order to determine the possible origin and gender of the incomplete set of bones. The reason for the time and trouble of examining them was because it had been intimated that they may be “of Earhart”… no mention of the possibility of them being ”of Noonan” being made. This then was three years after the disappearance of the Electra. The British Colonial Office head in The Pacific wanted to keep the question of the source of the bones under wraps until more information was forthcoming from the examination by Dr. Hoodless.

Doctor David Hoodless was the head of the Central Medical School in Fiji.

Dr. Hoodless examined the bones and made a written report of the measurements of the long bones and drew sketches of the partial skull and pelvic arch remnant. His calculations are on the report together with a list of what he had received and the sketches. Doctor Hoodless pronounced the bones to be those of a "Stocky Male, possible mixed race or islander, approximately 5 feet 6 inches tall". After the examination of the bones by Dr. Hoodless, it is not known positively what happened to the bones but it is possible that they were incinerated together with other pieces of anatomy used at the Central Medical School.

Where then, could the bones have come from ?

Various flagged ships have been visiting Gardner Island for decades from the time of wooden sailing ships to the Bettchart Cruises organised by members of TIGHAR. There are records of whaling ships visits and of expired sailors being buried there in groups. Life at sea in those old days caused sailors to frequently expire.

In 1929, a steamer crossing the Pacific, the S.S. Norwich City, ran aground on the reef on Gardner Island (now called Nikumaroro) and broke its’ back and caught fire in the dead of night and during a storm, causing the crew to abandon ship and take to boats. This exodus was to cause eleven (11) souls in the crew to perish in the evacuation exercise in the stormy sea during the attempts to get off the ship and to reach land. This then was the largest expiry of lives on Gardner Island and some of the lost were Arab crewmen from the Middle East (Aden) and some are recorded as being 5 feet 6 inches tall or around that height. Some records of the Arab crewmen are in the Public Records office in the U.K..

That ship alone added to burials on the island when but four poor souls from the eleven lost were interred there, which must have increased the total to at least half a score or more interred on Gardner. Seven of those other poor souls from the S.S. Norwich City were not recovered and buried and it may be possible for one or two to have actually survived the rough seas and the sharks and made it to shore above the waterline in a debilitated state only to die from water ingestion, exertion and exhaustion.

The burials of the four that were interred, possibly took place on the sloping loose coral beach, due to the difficulty of digging graves into the hard coral of the island with whatever implements the survivors had. A later New Zealand Survey party in 1938, recorded bones on the beaches, so "those may be from they". In other words, what with the previous burials and now the four burials from the S.S. Norwich City, there were many sources of bones left on the island. Not to mention, that there are many stories of Pacific Islanders being adrift at sea for days or weeks on end before making a landfall and becoming castaways.

The 1940 bones were found up the top of the beach where the plants were growing and TIGHAR itself reports beach detritus being washed up on to the shore in storms. As said, some sailors from the ship were not found and who is to say that one of those did not struggle ashore at a distance away from the other survivors and expire on the spot in the shrubbery, alone.......

About ten years ago I spent many hours running though archived New Zealand newspapers trying to find reports of burials on the island and I did see accounts of mariners buried there in ones and twos and I did read about the later visit by a New Zealand survey party.

Where did it go from there ?

The report of the find of the “1940 Bones”, was picked up by TIGHAR as an exercise to see if they could be turned into "Earhart's bones". The TIGHAR sleuths unearthed the good Doctor's notes and sketches in the U.K.

Oh! My Goodness; the sketches showed the pelvic arch to be that of a Male....

Undeterred, TIGHAR enlisted the help of a TIGHAR member named Doctor Karen Burns who teamed with ‘the’ Doctor Jantz several years ago to produce a report. They did not have the bones, they had long since vanished. TIGHAR did try to find “the bones” by sending a team of Members to Fiji. After exhausting the Medical School and Hospital avenues, they requested permission to have a look around in other Fiji Government buildings but permission was refused.

Therefore, “bereft of bones”, Doctors Burns and Jantz used Dr. Hoodless’s notes and sketches. Their deductions made from the Dr. Hoodless notes were fed into a computer and out came the astounding change of gender… the bones were no longer Male, they were Female and they belonged to a woman of Nordic extraction whose height had been been five feet nine inches (5’ 9” tall). Now what was the identity of this woman of Nordic extraction ? Guess who ?

Therefore, TIGHAR using Scientific Methodology, teamed with two Doctors now and electronic help from a Computer declares "the Bones" to be of a Nordic female of 5 feet 9 inches tall based on a computer programme that did not include all races from this Earth. Not all races and ethnic groups were included and at the time it was not said if Arabian peoples were included at all......

Now, we have another report from Dr. Jantz, which has as the key words, “More similar”. The report does not say the bones are those of Amelia Earhart.

I have read reports that TIGHAR are basically saying that there was a bungled investigation by “The British” in the Colonial days but the natural reserve of the Colonial Administration would be to investigate further, before breaking “Fake News” and would be the policy of any Government where a person of notoriety is involved. When Dr. Hoodless determined Male gender it was “all over Red Rover” for the Colonial Government and they could relax and take ”Tea at 3”………

All persons now, who are interested in the fate of Earhart and Noonan can make up their own minds… as per normal.

Last edited by David Billings; 8th Mar 2018 at 23:27.
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