Merged: Pel Air vs RFDS for the Air Ambulance contract in Australia
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RFDS is the only Aeromed operator in Australia whose motives are transparently altruistic - their commercial operations in Government contracts provide the funding to support their non-commercial primary response roles and their primary health clinic work.
They have a world-class stand-alone operation in all regards, with their own aircraft, pilots, C&T, medical, nursing and admin.
If they missed out on the Vic Ambulance contract on a cost basis, it would be because they operate all facets of the organisation UP to a (very high) standard, not DOWN to a price.
Their 'shareholders' are the patients and their families who depend on them for routine and emergency medical (and social/psychological) care, who in turn support them by donating to the charity.
This is the essence of a great Australian icon and world renowned service provider. It is not all about cost. I believe the Vic Governemnt / ASV will come to realise this in the not-too-distant future.
They have a world-class stand-alone operation in all regards, with their own aircraft, pilots, C&T, medical, nursing and admin.
If they missed out on the Vic Ambulance contract on a cost basis, it would be because they operate all facets of the organisation UP to a (very high) standard, not DOWN to a price.
Their 'shareholders' are the patients and their families who depend on them for routine and emergency medical (and social/psychological) care, who in turn support them by donating to the charity.
This is the essence of a great Australian icon and world renowned service provider. It is not all about cost. I believe the Vic Governemnt / ASV will come to realise this in the not-too-distant future.
'Jamair' I'll second all that but few know that anyway
It simply costs the RFDS too much to provide the service at a high level, sadly cost to a Govt is everything. Then again when you think about it the Govt is only minding OUR money & not very good I might add!!
Wmk2
It simply costs the RFDS too much to provide the service at a high level, sadly cost to a Govt is everything. Then again when you think about it the Govt is only minding OUR money & not very good I might add!!
Wmk2
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onemore said
I could probably think of few as would anyone else who has been in the industry more than 5 min.
So why get so worked up over it?
onemore we know who won the contract hence the thread.
From what I can see from this thread most of the posters have raised legitimate questions. The gist of which is summarised below which is far from "I have no xxx idea forum" or "oh okay I get it, if you have no idea about what you are talking about just make it up because you are bored....."
Operator A who:
Operator B who:
But then again there are not too many companies that have operated as many transport category flights for three decades either.
Dont really care about about Pel-Air but dumbfounded by the carry-on about a commercial arm of a great charity loosing a commercial contract to another commercial operator.
IT was the Victorian Govt Ambulaunce Contract won by Pel-Air/Rex not the Royal Flying Doctor Service
Thats funny, I am sure there is another thread around here that puts all the blame on the pilot - oh okay I get it, if you have no idea about what you are talking about just make it up because you are bored.....
Seriously, it may be a rumour network but this place is more a "I have no xxx idea forum"
Seriously, it may be a rumour network but this place is more a "I have no xxx idea forum"
Operator A who:
- Has a proven track record in domestic aeromed.
- Has proven track record with the aircraft type.
- Has been doing the job safely & efficiently for a number of years.
- Is funded by the Australian public through donations & govt funding.
Operator B who:
- Doesn't have a proven track record in domestic aeromed.
- Doesn't have a proven track record with the aircraft type.
- Who's only real claim to fame is as a freight company.
- Is not Australian owned any more.
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onemore for onemore!
Nah Im not angry, but I just find it frustrating to read some of the tripe in this thread as it has little or no truth about it that could even come close to rumour
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??????????????????
Non commercial primary response roles?????
Do you blokes really believe that the RFDS does the medical work in the outback with no government funding?
I know that in past years they were paid for every flight by governments and insurance companies. They also got a subsidy from government to help purchase new aircraft. On top of this they got donations, bequests and income from the race meetings, gymkhana, camel racing etc and from most of the roadhouses in the outback. At least one aircraft flew around with advertising on it. And each state had their own separate RFDS operation. (N.T. was Alice springs only and was controlled from Adelaide.)
So the RFDS has a sound financial base with government contracts and income from the public. It is a commercial operation with benefits.(inccome from public donations)
It is a good operation that can afford aircraft that most other operators cannot. There is no level playing field, and no-one is playing. The government is getting cheaper services this way.
I know the RFDS provides an essential service, and I flew aircraft for the RFDS for over a decade. I also live in Central Australia and may need their services one day.
But let's stop pretending that there is a level playing field. The RFDS has definite advantages.
Do you blokes really believe that the RFDS does the medical work in the outback with no government funding?
I know that in past years they were paid for every flight by governments and insurance companies. They also got a subsidy from government to help purchase new aircraft. On top of this they got donations, bequests and income from the race meetings, gymkhana, camel racing etc and from most of the roadhouses in the outback. At least one aircraft flew around with advertising on it. And each state had their own separate RFDS operation. (N.T. was Alice springs only and was controlled from Adelaide.)
So the RFDS has a sound financial base with government contracts and income from the public. It is a commercial operation with benefits.(inccome from public donations)
It is a good operation that can afford aircraft that most other operators cannot. There is no level playing field, and no-one is playing. The government is getting cheaper services this way.
I know the RFDS provides an essential service, and I flew aircraft for the RFDS for over a decade. I also live in Central Australia and may need their services one day.
But let's stop pretending that there is a level playing field. The RFDS has definite advantages.
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Lester
Lets be fair here also...RFDS have a much better overall rate I am sure than the other operator when you look at the number of hours of aero med work and usually under far from less than perfect conditions. The other operator has had just as many problems in far better circumstances......unless I am wearing rose tinted glasses. And I have no reason to at all.
J
Lets be fair here also...RFDS have a much better overall rate I am sure than the other operator when you look at the number of hours of aero med work and usually under far from less than perfect conditions. The other operator has had just as many problems in far better circumstances......unless I am wearing rose tinted glasses. And I have no reason to at all.
J
Healthy debate about such things as this topic is good,keeps us all on our toes
But lets not forget the core reason behind the RFDS,to assist people medically in remote area's. That is the mainstream of the RFDS starting with a non money making vision but we live now in a very commercial world where the all mighty dollar rules so for the RFDS to continue & expand it's network then they have to compete with the business sector of the world that doesn't have roots such as the RFDS.
Look the RFDS is not 'owned' by anybody. It's not run by any one person whom has a financial interest in the business it's 'owned' or belongs to for want of a better word by every Aussie in this country The RFDS is made up of employees it has a heart, it beats unlike most Co's who are in business purely for profit & their employees are just 'tools' in which to make money with. Don't forget also the RFDS employs many people spread far & wide in this brown land of ours so essentially the Govt kind of owns the institution & who is the Govt? All of us So any monies going into the RFDS by donations etc isn't for personal gain by someone at the top it's for the benefit of all Aussies. I feel very disappointed that the Govt of the day here in Vic saw to replace the RFDS with another operator. (I with the new operator every success) The reasons as to why are being sort thru the FOI act so will be interesting to know when a few of us walk out the door after many years in the best GA job around
'Jaba' ya won't win with the 'Lesters' of today they have different views of which they are entitled to.
Wmk2
But lets not forget the core reason behind the RFDS,to assist people medically in remote area's. That is the mainstream of the RFDS starting with a non money making vision but we live now in a very commercial world where the all mighty dollar rules so for the RFDS to continue & expand it's network then they have to compete with the business sector of the world that doesn't have roots such as the RFDS.
Look the RFDS is not 'owned' by anybody. It's not run by any one person whom has a financial interest in the business it's 'owned' or belongs to for want of a better word by every Aussie in this country
The RFDS is made up of employees it has a heart, it beats unlike most Co's who are in business purely for profit & their employees are just 'tools' in which to make money with. Don't forget also the RFDS employs many people spread far & wide in this brown land of ours so essentially the Govt kind of owns the institution & who is the Govt? All of us So any monies going into the RFDS by donations etc isn't for personal gain by someone at the top it's for the benefit of all Aussies. I feel very disappointed that the Govt of the day here in Vic saw to replace the RFDS with another operator. (I with the new operator every success) The reasons as to why are being sort thru the FOI act so will be interesting to know when a few of us walk out the door after many years in the best GA job around'Jaba' ya won't win with the 'Lesters' of today they have different views of which they are entitled to.
Wmk2
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A few rumours I have heard about the Victorian contract;
To make their proposal viable (financially) Pel Air had to gain approval from the Victorian Govt to allow non-priority patients to be transported on commercial (i.e Rex) flights. This does not occur with the RFDS.
The Victorian Govt has had to underwrite the financing for the new Pel Air aircraft. Again this would not occur if this was the RFDS.
The rumour that the RFDS (read BHI management) was told they would never be given a contract in Victoria again due to their (his) meddling in Metro Ambulance politics seems to be true.
Just because a tender may be cheaper does not mean they are required to accept it. I feel the RFDS would of been a much better proposition than what has been appointed as I am sure many also feel. However there seems to be a lot of maneuvering by the Govt (or factions of) to ensure that the RFDS did not get this contract back.
To make their proposal viable (financially) Pel Air had to gain approval from the Victorian Govt to allow non-priority patients to be transported on commercial (i.e Rex) flights. This does not occur with the RFDS.
The Victorian Govt has had to underwrite the financing for the new Pel Air aircraft. Again this would not occur if this was the RFDS.
The rumour that the RFDS (read BHI management) was told they would never be given a contract in Victoria again due to their (his) meddling in Metro Ambulance politics seems to be true.
Just because a tender may be cheaper does not mean they are required to accept it. I feel the RFDS would of been a much better proposition than what has been appointed as I am sure many also feel. However there seems to be a lot of maneuvering by the Govt (or factions of) to ensure that the RFDS did not get this contract back.
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Wally MK2
I agree with most of your most recent post. I think the RFDS was the best flying job I had too.
The point I am making is that organisations that are supported by government and funding from the public or churches etc should not be tendering for government contracts, because they have a significant financial advantage and can drag prices down, resulting in an impoverished industry.
Our governments are getting cheap medical and other aviation services, that are subsidised by the public. And very few non subsidised organisations can survive for long providing the ame level of service.
Government supported organisations tendering for government contracts??
So the chosen ones do well while threst of the industry remains impoverished, in a low price environment.
Our governments should pay the required price for the services they require, and not rely on topups from the public. They save by not providing local medical services in isolated areas.
The point I am making is that organisations that are supported by government and funding from the public or churches etc should not be tendering for government contracts, because they have a significant financial advantage and can drag prices down, resulting in an impoverished industry.
Our governments are getting cheap medical and other aviation services, that are subsidised by the public. And very few non subsidised organisations can survive for long providing the ame level of service.
Government supported organisations tendering for government contracts??
So the chosen ones do well while threst of the industry remains impoverished, in a low price environment.
Our governments should pay the required price for the services they require, and not rely on topups from the public. They save by not providing local medical services in isolated areas.
Bushy,
Whilst I respect your opinion, I can't help but gather that you're basically saying one of two things:
1) RFDS should stick to have very minimal bases, doing very minimal work, and not getting with the times.
or
2) RFDS should no longer be a non-profit organisation and try and make money off everything they do, become a public company and piss off everyone and then fold because no one will want their services because they charge like wounded bulls. After all, 1st class products and 1st class safety cost money.
Both sound just as stupid as each other.
RFDS has proven itself as a leader in innovation throughout it's 82 year history. Why can they not expand on the services they offer, to all parts of Australia? Should it be only for the far flung parts of Australia?
The whole Pel-Air vs RFDS for the Victorian Air Ambulance contract has 2 sides. One is the side that supports RFDS entirely and believe they're the only one's who can do it.
The other is a side which see's this as the start of huge problems in Australian Aeromedical operations. Why? Commercial operators, fighting for these contracts. Take a look at the American aeromedical scene, and the amount of fatalities that occurr over there because of it, and you'll see what I mean.
RFDS has it flaws, that can't be denied. But why is a 1st class operation (in safety and the way the crews operate) run by an organisation who has done nothing BUT aeromedical operations, for the last 82 years, being knocked down by an organisation who has next to no experience in this type of operation? And why are people suggesting RFDS should not be getting involved in these types of contracts?
morno
Whilst I respect your opinion, I can't help but gather that you're basically saying one of two things:
1) RFDS should stick to have very minimal bases, doing very minimal work, and not getting with the times.
or
2) RFDS should no longer be a non-profit organisation and try and make money off everything they do, become a public company and piss off everyone and then fold because no one will want their services because they charge like wounded bulls. After all, 1st class products and 1st class safety cost money.
Both sound just as stupid as each other.
RFDS has proven itself as a leader in innovation throughout it's 82 year history. Why can they not expand on the services they offer, to all parts of Australia? Should it be only for the far flung parts of Australia?
The whole Pel-Air vs RFDS for the Victorian Air Ambulance contract has 2 sides. One is the side that supports RFDS entirely and believe they're the only one's who can do it.
The other is a side which see's this as the start of huge problems in Australian Aeromedical operations. Why? Commercial operators, fighting for these contracts. Take a look at the American aeromedical scene, and the amount of fatalities that occurr over there because of it, and you'll see what I mean.
RFDS has it flaws, that can't be denied. But why is a 1st class operation (in safety and the way the crews operate) run by an organisation who has done nothing BUT aeromedical operations, for the last 82 years, being knocked down by an organisation who has next to no experience in this type of operation? And why are people suggesting RFDS should not be getting involved in these types of contracts?
morno
G'Day 'Morno':-) Trust yr well??
Why you ask?.
MONEY...............there is no other single reason as to why the RFDS lost the Vic contract.
I've been there since the start of the current contract & it has worked safely & efficiently since day one, obviously at a cost not acceptable to whomever made the dumb decision to let it go to someone else. I believe the new contract will be more difficult to administer meaning there are more penalties placed on the new contractors for poor performance.
Just like our dismal public transport here in ML those operators get penalized constantly same goes for any Govt contract. I don't believe PelAir have any idea what they are getting themselves in for here (that's a personal opinion too so save the personal attacks) but I truly hope I am proved wrong 'cause at the end of the day all political reasons aside we are talking about peoples lives here not some stupid ticketing system !!!!
"LB" us RFDS pilots are well aware that it's over (there's zip we can do about it at our level) no one is crying about it as such we are now resigned to the fact that this Govt hasn't got a clue but we are talking about people here who have provided a damn good service at the coal face for AAV & they turn around & throw it back in our faces,that's what we where angry about. The people at that coal face the guys/gals who actually run the show (both sides AAV & the RFDS) are fantastic, real people with a genuine desire to be part of something not just a job where someone at the top is making money.
Perhaps as has been suggested here the RFDS should not be allowed to tender for such contracts but there would have to be a very good reason as to why exclude the ONLY operator with that level of experience that does just one type of flying, Aero-Medical flying for the good of all Australians where the profit/services stay at home.........
Wmk2, proud to be part of the RFDS
Why you ask?.
MONEY...............there is no other single reason as to why the RFDS lost the Vic contract.
I've been there since the start of the current contract & it has worked safely & efficiently since day one, obviously at a cost not acceptable to whomever made the dumb decision to let it go to someone else. I believe the new contract will be more difficult to administer meaning there are more penalties placed on the new contractors for poor performance.
Just like our dismal public transport here in ML those operators get penalized constantly same goes for any Govt contract. I don't believe PelAir have any idea what they are getting themselves in for here (that's a personal opinion too so save the personal attacks) but I truly hope I am proved wrong 'cause at the end of the day all political reasons aside we are talking about peoples lives here not some stupid ticketing system !!!!
"LB" us RFDS pilots are well aware that it's over (there's zip we can do about it at our level) no one is crying about it as such we are now resigned to the fact that this Govt hasn't got a clue but we are talking about people here who have provided a damn good service at the coal face for AAV & they turn around & throw it back in our faces,that's what we where angry about. The people at that coal face the guys/gals who actually run the show (both sides AAV & the RFDS) are fantastic, real people with a genuine desire to be part of something not just a job where someone at the top is making money.
Perhaps as has been suggested here the RFDS should not be allowed to tender for such contracts but there would have to be a very good reason as to why exclude the ONLY operator with that level of experience that does just one type of flying, Aero-Medical flying for the good of all Australians where the profit/services stay at home.........
Wmk2, proud to be part of the RFDS
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The RFDS, said bushy:
Err ... make that "drag prices UP". The RFDS is a high quality operation and quality costs money. The RFDS, in fact, is the highest quality operation (and therefore most expensive).
This would, no doubt, be the reason they lost the contract. The Vic government would be of the belief that the less expensive option, although of a lesser quality, would still be satisfactory.
... should not be tendering for government contracts, because they have a significant financial advantage and can drag prices down, resulting in an impoverished industry.
This would, no doubt, be the reason they lost the contract. The Vic government would be of the belief that the less expensive option, although of a lesser quality, would still be satisfactory.
The RFDS supply aircraft and personnel, nothing more. The medical personnel and equipment is supplied by the Ambulance service of Victoria.
Why are the RFDS prices higher for aircraft and pilots? They are being subsidised by the public and corporations within Australia including QF who contribute a very large donation annually.
The RFDS unfortunately have tried to meddle within the Health department of Victoria, bypassing departments to run the operation as they see fit with their own personnel. Unfortunately this will always cost more when you place a Doctor and Nurse on every flight and upset the very people who run this contract!
To all the current pilots, the Air Ambulance have respected your experience and will always encourage the new operator to carry you over. Don't let company politics colour you perception on who should or shouldn't have this contract.
Why are the RFDS prices higher for aircraft and pilots? They are being subsidised by the public and corporations within Australia including QF who contribute a very large donation annually.
The RFDS unfortunately have tried to meddle within the Health department of Victoria, bypassing departments to run the operation as they see fit with their own personnel. Unfortunately this will always cost more when you place a Doctor and Nurse on every flight and upset the very people who run this contract!
To all the current pilots, the Air Ambulance have respected your experience and will always encourage the new operator to carry you over. Don't let company politics colour you perception on who should or shouldn't have this contract.
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Let's not be naive, RFDS are not dragging any prices up.
The RFDS is a far more expensive operation to run than a purely commercial one such as Pel Air. This is due to the sheer quality of the RFDS operation. The only other operation with comparable quality (and comparable operating costs), I would suggest, would be the RAAF!
THERE IS NO WAY THE RFDS CAN DO ANYTHING MORE CHEAPLY THAN AN OUTFIT LIKE PEL AIR.
I would suggest that the RFDS have not really undercut the commercial operators, but rather, creative (government) accounting has made it look that way.
A healthy dose of politics was involved in the Queensland decision, I believe.
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Lester Burnham: We should also all remember that the latest fatality in Aust medivac was RFDS at Mt Gambier and the next major incident before Norfolk was RFDS at Coffs Harbour.
Sorry, wrong. CQ Rescue, Cape Hillsborough, 2003.
Sorry, wrong. CQ Rescue, Cape Hillsborough, 2003.