Merged: TodayTonight: communication difficulties Monday
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Here 'tis Media Watch tip-offs
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I watched it with an open mind.
Aside from the obvious Essendon calls whilst showing aircraft at Moorabbin, the small captioning error and the Jabiru used for the cockpit scenes
I think it was PERFECTLY VALID.
Just imagine what the thread will look like when someone crashes due to poor unreadable english, things will be different then!
For those instructors that think the foreign students are ok, you need to get out of the Moorabbin training area (for example) when they go on Solo Nav's and have a listen to the VHF. Whilst you're having a listen, try switching to 123.45 or the other random channel that they choose and you'll here as much foreign language between aircraft than you'd hear in little China town (for example). I heard a call on the weekend that I could not understand, with the exception of the field that was to be overflown and I work with foreign people of all the usual suspect countries daily.
Aside from the obvious Essendon calls whilst showing aircraft at Moorabbin, the small captioning error and the Jabiru used for the cockpit scenes
I think it was PERFECTLY VALID.Just imagine what the thread will look like when someone crashes due to poor unreadable english, things will be different then!
For those instructors that think the foreign students are ok, you need to get out of the Moorabbin training area (for example) when they go on Solo Nav's and have a listen to the VHF. Whilst you're having a listen, try switching to 123.45 or the other random channel that they choose and you'll here as much foreign language between aircraft than you'd hear in little China town (for example). I heard a call on the weekend that I could not understand, with the exception of the field that was to be overflown and I work with foreign people of all the usual suspect countries daily.
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Hey Lasiorhinus
I think the youtube video rightly deserves some subtitles or annotations added, so we can clearly understand what Johnathon Creek is saying....perhaps an (unintelligible) here and there too....just so the video rings true to the rest of the subtitles.
I think the youtube video rightly deserves some subtitles or annotations added, so we can clearly understand what Johnathon Creek is saying....perhaps an (unintelligible) here and there too....just so the video rings true to the rest of the subtitles.
the small captioning error
The issue is probably worth another thread - this is more to do with the pathetic attempt to cover it.
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"I think it was PERFECTLY VALID"
The programme's hypothesis was that poor aviation communication is a result of the pilots being foreign. However, in the examples they showed, any poor communication was the result of either (a) the pilots being inexperienced, (b) the radio reception being poor, or (c) australian pilots stuffing up.
Nothing they showed supported their hypothesis. It was a perfectly invalid argument.
The programme's hypothesis was that poor aviation communication is a result of the pilots being foreign. However, in the examples they showed, any poor communication was the result of either (a) the pilots being inexperienced, (b) the radio reception being poor, or (c) australian pilots stuffing up.
Nothing they showed supported their hypothesis. It was a perfectly invalid argument.
Last edited by Unhinged; 11th May 2009 at 12:29.
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Today Tonight's viewer feedback page is here. 
"Stationed at"??????????
"At bang" ?????
So they didn't even drag out an aviation "expert" for this segment. What a joke.
Hey the ASIC and airport closures aren't doing enough to shut down GA, let's try and ban foreign training now too!!
"At bang" ?????
So they didn't even drag out an aviation "expert" for this segment. What a joke.
Hey the ASIC and airport closures aren't doing enough to shut down GA, let's try and ban foreign training now too!!
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All I can say is that I await the "I told you so" when an incident does occur!
As for this:
(a) the pilots being inexperienced
They don't get any better, especially when they get out on their solo NAV's!
If you think it's not bad, you need to get out there or buy a scanner or something and it's not just the GAAP's and CTA's, it's the CTAFS and airfields with non-standard ops, eg right hand circuits and Parachuting Drop Zones for starters!
As for this:
(a) the pilots being inexperienced
They don't get any better, especially when they get out on their solo NAV's!
If you think it's not bad, you need to get out there or buy a scanner or something
and it's not just the GAAP's and CTA's, it's the CTAFS and airfields with non-standard ops, eg right hand circuits and Parachuting Drop Zones for starters!
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Just watched the article and I note that John McCormick comments on his flying into many foreign environments however this would most likely have been at CX and in a professional ATC/RPT environment. Even with language and accent differences the genral core of understanding of the English used is well entrenched.
The issue of GAAP and nav's into various CTAF's and Class D etc, by relatively inexperienced pilots plus unfamiliar english and accents does mean there will be a far greater level of frustration. I remember when learning to fly in CTA, the odd moment of brain strain coping with multiple things at once plus flyng the plain would have been very obvious outside the cockpit........ add to that a language profficiency deficit and I fully appreciate the concerns being put forward.
To make matters worse many old a/c with old radios, antennae, audio panels and wiring, plus dodgey headsets...........
Many times its hard to understand the Aussies! So ATC really are in strife.
The only solution is to ensure English profficiency among the students. Its not being racist or anything like it, its a standard and it must be met. Simple as that. Same should apply to the level of instruction on radio use and for that matter good avionics/headsets.
And while we are at it, some of the local old fella's too!
Have to say I do not hear any ATC folk that are hard to understand.
The issue of GAAP and nav's into various CTAF's and Class D etc, by relatively inexperienced pilots plus unfamiliar english and accents does mean there will be a far greater level of frustration. I remember when learning to fly in CTA, the odd moment of brain strain coping with multiple things at once plus flyng the plain would have been very obvious outside the cockpit........ add to that a language profficiency deficit and I fully appreciate the concerns being put forward.
To make matters worse many old a/c with old radios, antennae, audio panels and wiring, plus dodgey headsets...........
Many times its hard to understand the Aussies! So ATC really are in strife.The only solution is to ensure English profficiency among the students. Its not being racist or anything like it, its a standard and it must be met. Simple as that. Same should apply to the level of instruction on radio use and for that matter good avionics/headsets.
And while we are at it, some of the local old fella's too!
Have to say I do not hear any ATC folk that are hard to understand.
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There used to be an enroute guy in Melbourne that could talk faster than anyone you have ever heard before! 9 times out of 10 the pilots were asking him to repeat himself. He seems to have disappeared in the last year.
Now there's a guy on there who gives so much information that he runs out of breath by the the time he has identified your conflicting traffic, he constantly uses free speech for all chatter. That being said, it's great service, however he runs himself thin because he can't get all the info out in time with the number of aircraft out there. Oh, and he is extremely polite, not to say that the others aren't, but this guy is something else.
Now there's a guy on there who gives so much information that he runs out of breath by the the time he has identified your conflicting traffic, he constantly uses free speech for all chatter. That being said, it's great service, however he runs himself thin because he can't get all the info out in time with the number of aircraft out there. Oh, and he is extremely polite, not to say that the others aren't, but this guy is something else.
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Just caught the "story" tonight... We're a little behind in the north!!
Typical useless trash sprouted by people who have no idea. Essendon tower's response 'call sign only' happens quite regularly. It may be the controller was talking to a ground station and missed the callsign of the aircraft.
I agree there needs to be stringent testing for student pilots, however TT's usual sloppy journalism and complete lack of integrity has produced a "story" that wouldn't pass a high school media class.
How do we know all those recorded transmissions were made in the same day or even the same year for that matter???
What a waste of film, the least they could have done was to present this very real issue with a WELL RESEARCHED and FACT BASED story rather than media hype. Then people in the regulatory bodies may take notice.
Then again if they could do that they wouldn't be working for TT.
*rant over*
TeeTail
Typical useless trash sprouted by people who have no idea. Essendon tower's response 'call sign only' happens quite regularly. It may be the controller was talking to a ground station and missed the callsign of the aircraft.
I agree there needs to be stringent testing for student pilots, however TT's usual sloppy journalism and complete lack of integrity has produced a "story" that wouldn't pass a high school media class.
How do we know all those recorded transmissions were made in the same day or even the same year for that matter???
What a waste of film, the least they could have done was to present this very real issue with a WELL RESEARCHED and FACT BASED story rather than media hype. Then people in the regulatory bodies may take notice.
Then again if they could do that they wouldn't be working for TT.
*rant over*
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Are flying schools under any financial pressure to give 'free passes' to those who shouldn't get passed in English?
eg
"Do I fail this guy and lose his $50,000+ worth of training, or do I pass him and take the money, hoping he'll improve?"
And as for requiring true blue Aussies to pass an English test before getting a student licence - now THAT'S racist.
eg
"Do I fail this guy and lose his $50,000+ worth of training, or do I pass him and take the money, hoping he'll improve?"
And as for requiring true blue Aussies to pass an English test before getting a student licence - now THAT'S racist.
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Racist? Get real mate. It affects people over a vast spectrum of backgrounds and situations for example; some people may have a speech impediment and that would help screen these people out. Lets face, I don't know the test would help with safety, but it would just make things easier.
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I do not object to english language testing and in fact am all for it.
However; the test itself is not testing your understanding of the english language but your ability to understand someone elses broken english. Add to this that some of the audio samples in the test are IFR airways clearances and the like and its surprising any student pilots regardless of background are getting the tick.
However; the test itself is not testing your understanding of the english language but your ability to understand someone elses broken english. Add to this that some of the audio samples in the test are IFR airways clearances and the like and its surprising any student pilots regardless of background are getting the tick.