Violation of Controlled Airspace
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Violation of Controlled Airspace
Time for a rant.
What is going on out there with GA pilots? This week alone there has been four VCA's at one little airfield where I work. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 miles either, try 25 Nm transits of airspace without any broadcasts. Most do the right thing but the number of those that have NFI is increasing. Whats going instructors? What are you teaching?
How hard is it to plan your flight prior to your departure? Have a look at a map. Actually study the blue and red lines and levels. Think about where you are going and do you need to get an airways clearance.
If your lost, ask for help. If you think your close to an airspace boundary, call us, don't just blunder in and stooge around. You create a lot more work and put yourself and others in danger. If you here ATC calling, don't ignore us and turn your transponder to standby. We can still see you.
For those that do the right thing, thank you. It is refreshing to hear a competent and professional pilot who calls in a timely fashion, with all their details and can readback a clearance and stay on a cleared route.
Rant over
What is going on out there with GA pilots? This week alone there has been four VCA's at one little airfield where I work. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 miles either, try 25 Nm transits of airspace without any broadcasts. Most do the right thing but the number of those that have NFI is increasing. Whats going instructors? What are you teaching?
How hard is it to plan your flight prior to your departure? Have a look at a map. Actually study the blue and red lines and levels. Think about where you are going and do you need to get an airways clearance.
If your lost, ask for help. If you think your close to an airspace boundary, call us, don't just blunder in and stooge around. You create a lot more work and put yourself and others in danger. If you here ATC calling, don't ignore us and turn your transponder to standby. We can still see you.
For those that do the right thing, thank you. It is refreshing to hear a competent and professional pilot who calls in a timely fashion, with all their details and can readback a clearance and stay on a cleared route.
Rant over
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REP, prefer not to say location just yet but you can probably work it out from other posts.
The international students I can deal with. It can take a while but you eventually get there. Its the ones who say nothing and don't respond to calls on any freq's. The ones that really piss me off are those that change direction when you try to call them and then the transponder goes off.
If they make a mistake, thats fine. If your not sure about position or airspace, call. Respond to the call if you hear it and we can keep everyone safe. Most do a good job but the ones who stuff it up seem to be increasing.
4 in two days may not seem a lot but each VCA requires everyone to broadcast, then you don't know where they're going or what level or even if they are in trouble. Then there is traffic and separation issues, all kinds of problems.
If in doubt call.
Capt Fathom, your right. I'm astounded at the number of times I have asked if they have a VTC on board and the response is no. Technology is great until it fails.
The international students I can deal with. It can take a while but you eventually get there. Its the ones who say nothing and don't respond to calls on any freq's. The ones that really piss me off are those that change direction when you try to call them and then the transponder goes off.
If they make a mistake, thats fine. If your not sure about position or airspace, call. Respond to the call if you hear it and we can keep everyone safe. Most do a good job but the ones who stuff it up seem to be increasing.
4 in two days may not seem a lot but each VCA requires everyone to broadcast, then you don't know where they're going or what level or even if they are in trouble. Then there is traffic and separation issues, all kinds of problems.
If in doubt call.
Capt Fathom, your right. I'm astounded at the number of times I have asked if they have a VTC on board and the response is no. Technology is great until it fails.
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I have $2.50 on the RAA guy with no idea what CTA is, and probably all 4 are the same one!
Now of course I would be saying.........if only the low level ADSB mandate and subsidy got up........... but of course those very guilty folk who helped stop it would not see the benefit here.
"drifter 7191, coffs tower, do you require assistance and are you aware you are 5 miles inside Class delta airspace without a clearance?"
ADSB..........could have helped a heap
Except those too lazy or too ignorant to participate.
I am glad this thread has been started by someone else other than the rest of us like Scurvy, Owen, Enrooter etc etc etc....... because they would get hammered by the usual suspects!
J
PS for those that do not know your rego and details are transmitted with ADSB...hence thise worried about being "identified"
Now of course I would be saying.........if only the low level ADSB mandate and subsidy got up........... but of course those very guilty folk who helped stop it would not see the benefit here.
"drifter 7191, coffs tower, do you require assistance and are you aware you are 5 miles inside Class delta airspace without a clearance?"
ADSB..........could have helped a heap
Except those too lazy or too ignorant to participate.I am glad this thread has been started by someone else other than the rest of us like Scurvy, Owen, Enrooter etc etc etc....... because they would get hammered by the usual suspects!
J
PS for those that do not know your rego and details are transmitted with ADSB...hence thise worried about being "identified"
Last edited by Jabawocky; 18th Mar 2009 at 12:36.
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If they make a mistake, thats fine. If your not sure about position or airspace, call. Respond to the call if you hear it and we can keep everyone safe. Most do a good job but the ones who stuff it up seem to be increasing.
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VTC's??? What are they? Oh, right! They're just a revenue stream for AsA and not required in the cockpit. Who navigates by maps anymore anyway?
(Just to confirm: I'm being facetious.)
(Just to confirm: I'm being facetious.)
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Clearedtorenter,
I have no choice, once the aircraft goes beyond navigational tolerances (+/-2Nm below 2 thousand) I have to report it. When an aircraft flys 30Nm right thru the middle of the place, what option do I have?
Isn't it better to own up and maybe get a kick up the bum later on? Is it that hard to put your hand up and admit that you've stuffed up? Maybe some individuals don't deserve the privelege of holding a PPL.
Or do you suggest it is better to continue with your journey, putting yourself and others in danger?
There is an easy solution. Get a map, draw a line on it and look to see if you need an airways clearance and call prior to the boundary.
PPPPPP.
I have no choice, once the aircraft goes beyond navigational tolerances (+/-2Nm below 2 thousand) I have to report it. When an aircraft flys 30Nm right thru the middle of the place, what option do I have?
Isn't it better to own up and maybe get a kick up the bum later on? Is it that hard to put your hand up and admit that you've stuffed up? Maybe some individuals don't deserve the privelege of holding a PPL.
Or do you suggest it is better to continue with your journey, putting yourself and others in danger?
There is an easy solution. Get a map, draw a line on it and look to see if you need an airways clearance and call prior to the boundary.
PPPPPP.
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Rep,
In a nutshell, yes. If they run down the airspace boundary and are within nav tolerances, then we just monitor. Its the ones that blast on thru that cause the dramas.
Yes, the report goes to CASA and they decide what to do. Most, we never get a callsign, so nothing happens. If we do get a response we usually get the PIC to give us a call when they land, have a chat about where the stuffed up. That also goes in the report and if CASA are happy, its left at that.
Obviously if there is a separation breakdown or passengers are put at risk, things may get worse but I think that is fair enough.
In a nutshell, yes. If they run down the airspace boundary and are within nav tolerances, then we just monitor. Its the ones that blast on thru that cause the dramas.
Yes, the report goes to CASA and they decide what to do. Most, we never get a callsign, so nothing happens. If we do get a response we usually get the PIC to give us a call when they land, have a chat about where the stuffed up. That also goes in the report and if CASA are happy, its left at that.
Obviously if there is a separation breakdown or passengers are put at risk, things may get worse but I think that is fair enough.
You are skirting around the real emerging problem in my opinion......which is exactly the same as we face on our roads every day.
That is that our Governments have progressively fostered the replacement of all forms of self discipline with a requirement for blind obedience to the law. You can see the result every day on the roads. Provided you obey the law you can do anything stupid and dangerous you like on the roads with complete impunity. Furthermore, once the threat of speed cameras, radars, lasers, etc. is removed, down goes the hammer and stupidity ensues - no self discipline. No self identification with being perhaps a "skilled and responsible driver". The police treat you like an idiot, so you act like an idiot.
In matters aviational this process is also well advanced. You need an ASIC, you must do this, and you can't do that, drug and alcohol testing, locks on aircraft, or else! The more the authorities treat the pilots of small aircraft as irresponsible idiots to be controlled/ prosecuted/ reprimanded/ etc., the more they will act like idiots.
That is that our Governments have progressively fostered the replacement of all forms of self discipline with a requirement for blind obedience to the law. You can see the result every day on the roads. Provided you obey the law you can do anything stupid and dangerous you like on the roads with complete impunity. Furthermore, once the threat of speed cameras, radars, lasers, etc. is removed, down goes the hammer and stupidity ensues - no self discipline. No self identification with being perhaps a "skilled and responsible driver". The police treat you like an idiot, so you act like an idiot.
In matters aviational this process is also well advanced. You need an ASIC, you must do this, and you can't do that, drug and alcohol testing, locks on aircraft, or else! The more the authorities treat the pilots of small aircraft as irresponsible idiots to be controlled/ prosecuted/ reprimanded/ etc., the more they will act like idiots.
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When I went to buy my first hand held GPS (6 months ago - lol - still trying to figure out why people rely on them so much) one of the young instructors in the shop showed me with pride the track from his last flight, bang on the Melbourne CTA boundary right around from north to south on the east side at 4500'.
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I wouldn't fly over Puckapunyal Restricted Area in a fit! I've been there on the ground in the Army shooting stuff and if you've seen what flies up into the air (particularly at night when we use tracers) you wouldn't come within 20 miles! Last time I was there we had F88's, Minimi's, Tanks and the works banging around all night, particularly if there is some budget left and it's near the end of financial year.
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As a matter of interest what monitoring/capability does ATC have on adjacent frequencies.
A couple of years ago I had a VCA between Toowoomba and Caloundra when I got on the up escalator. As control was limited to wings level and airspeed in the middle of the green; I wasn't going to try and change frequencies on a microair or read VTC/ERSA. Called on the Caloundra freq which covers several fields requesting someone relay to BNE the situation and that I would descend when able (not that I was that keen, updraughts like that probably mean similar downdraughts nearby).
No reply and never heard anything else about it.
A couple of years ago I had a VCA between Toowoomba and Caloundra when I got on the up escalator. As control was limited to wings level and airspeed in the middle of the green; I wasn't going to try and change frequencies on a microair or read VTC/ERSA. Called on the Caloundra freq which covers several fields requesting someone relay to BNE the situation and that I would descend when able (not that I was that keen, updraughts like that probably mean similar downdraughts nearby).
No reply and never heard anything else about it.
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"As a matter of interest what monitoring/capability does ATC have on adjacent frequencies."
They don't which can sometimes be a problem. Best bet is for a relay.
I helped out with a relay on the weekend coming out of Avalon, caught be be surprise as I didn't have a pen handy!
ATC said thanks for relay mate, here's the details, "ABC cleared for takeoff Avalon 18L, for an Avalon 1 departure, squawk code 7235, contact Melbourne Departures on 123.45, Qnh 1013.2, climb initial 5,000ft.
Luckily said aircraft received from the ground and I was able to reply with words to the effect of "Yep, got that."
They don't which can sometimes be a problem. Best bet is for a relay.
I helped out with a relay on the weekend coming out of Avalon, caught be be surprise as I didn't have a pen handy!
ATC said thanks for relay mate, here's the details, "ABC cleared for takeoff Avalon 18L, for an Avalon 1 departure, squawk code 7235, contact Melbourne Departures on 123.45, Qnh 1013.2, climb initial 5,000ft.
Luckily said aircraft received from the ground and I was able to reply with words to the effect of "Yep, got that."
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This snippet...
... seems out of place here, but unchallenged and some folk need reminding that there was NEVER a "subsidy" only a recommendation by a think tank of "dreamers and enthusiasts" and any push for it's premature introduction at low level WILL need a mandate for it to work to its full potential at considerable cost to GA.
I also fail to see how a 2 seat and 4 seat version of the same Jabiru registered under different regimes would attract a blanket statement that
Bloody elitism. What gives you a monopoly on common sense or stupidity. Has it ever occurred to you that some ATPL's may think the same about you.
Of course a PPL has never violated controlled airspace.
if only the low level ADSB mandate and subsidy got up........... but of course those very guilty folk who helped stop it
I also fail to see how a 2 seat and 4 seat version of the same Jabiru registered under different regimes would attract a blanket statement that
have $2.50 on the RAA guy with no idea what CTA is, and probably all 4 are the same one!
Of course a PPL has never violated controlled airspace.
Sorry, but the RAA guys & gals are not the problem. 90% of the time it is VH registered (and not light sport either).
The RAA do a much better job of educating their membership than the GA community I am both pleased and afraid to observe.
I would say we average 4-5 VCA's a day in my neck of the woods. Most appear to be through bad planning and not having an laternative plan when the WX is not as FCST. (Is it ever?!)
The RAA do a much better job of educating their membership than the GA community I am both pleased and afraid to observe.
I would say we average 4-5 VCA's a day in my neck of the woods. Most appear to be through bad planning and not having an laternative plan when the WX is not as FCST. (Is it ever?!)
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Airspace violations!
I wonder if things could be made more simple? Whilst everyone dislikes rule breaking and people who can't navigate, despite this ill discipline there doesn't seem to have been a big increase in mid air collisions, and nobody has mentioned any near misses. Could this be because there is too much controlled airspace around?
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Gooday Bob 
I wonder why you are so defensive about this?
Maybe its the Warbird boys then!
My $2.50 bet was not a big one you will notice, not like it was I bet a $1M on it mate so settle petal!
I have to agree with BN APP about the standards of RAA around our neck of the woods. We have very strong and high standards of RAA training around the Brisbane area, and as a rule it would be highly unlikely for them because they are taught to avoid it and know how to. Some GA folk and its interesting to note its not the light end of the spectrum were less guilty (maybe for the same reasons) may be used to flying around a lot and become complacent. This sounds reasonable.
But the thread was started by someone who is very much not in the Brisbane area, and when I have seen and heard many of the things from the RAA folk about what you can do and get away with...........its worth risking my $2.50 on Bob.
So as you are so far superior in all these matters how about you tell us exactly who the repeat offender was on the mid coast of NSW?
As for the thoughts on ADSB........I think you have made me change my mind completely on the topic!Of course many of your friends would hate to think they were mandated 100% and no subsidy. But to be fair I now think thats what we should have. I bet the ATC folk on this thread would not object one bit!
ohh and ........
you are a bit slow today mate.......... did I not say......
...... its only a subsidy when the cash gets handed over, and it never got up.....so that meant the subsidy was a recommendation....... you really are struggling for stuff to debate!
J
PS
Mate maybe they do, but I know a number think worse of the author of the above
. And I am sure you already knew this, but a very large number of RAA members are in fact current and or recently retired ATPL holders, and they are not the problem. Maybe you do not get to see the problems. Some of these ATPL holders are also very vocal about our fellow aviators and their practices, and I do my damned best to avoid being one who is negligent and ignorant of airmanship. Not saying I am perfect either, but geez some of these folk should take their hobbies a bit more seriously. I could name at least 6 well known ppruners off the top of my head who have shared these same thoughts with me, and some have voiced them here...... just not sure if they want their pprune names listed or not so I will refrain. Go out around the traps with your rose tinted glasses off and see what I mean. Ohh and yes, some VH tails are just as bad just so you think I am not RAA bashing as some form of prejudice. I do have a foot in both camps.
I wonder why you are so defensive about this?
Maybe its the Warbird boys then!
My $2.50 bet was not a big one you will notice, not like it was I bet a $1M on it mate so settle petal!
I have to agree with BN APP about the standards of RAA around our neck of the woods. We have very strong and high standards of RAA training around the Brisbane area, and as a rule it would be highly unlikely for them because they are taught to avoid it and know how to. Some GA folk and its interesting to note its not the light end of the spectrum were less guilty (maybe for the same reasons) may be used to flying around a lot and become complacent. This sounds reasonable.
But the thread was started by someone who is very much not in the Brisbane area, and when I have seen and heard many of the things from the RAA folk about what you can do and get away with...........its worth risking my $2.50 on Bob.
So as you are so far superior in all these matters how about you tell us exactly who the repeat offender was on the mid coast of NSW?
As for the thoughts on ADSB........I think you have made me change my mind completely on the topic!
Of course many of your friends would hate to think they were mandated 100% and no subsidy. But to be fair I now think thats what we should have. I bet the ATC folk on this thread would not object one bit!ohh and ........
... seems out of place here, but unchallenged and some folk need reminding that there was NEVER a "subsidy" only a recommendation by a think tank of "dreamers and enthusiasts" and any push for it's premature introduction at low level WILL need a mandate for it to work to its full potential at considerable cost to GA.
if only the low level ADSB mandate and subsidy got up
...... its only a subsidy when the cash gets handed over, and it never got up.....so that meant the subsidy was a recommendation....... you really are struggling for stuff to debate!J
PS
Has it ever occurred to you that some ATPL's may think the same about you.
. And I am sure you already knew this, but a very large number of RAA members are in fact current and or recently retired ATPL holders, and they are not the problem. Maybe you do not get to see the problems. Some of these ATPL holders are also very vocal about our fellow aviators and their practices, and I do my damned best to avoid being one who is negligent and ignorant of airmanship. Not saying I am perfect either, but geez some of these folk should take their hobbies a bit more seriously. I could name at least 6 well known ppruners off the top of my head who have shared these same thoughts with me, and some have voiced them here...... just not sure if they want their pprune names listed or not so I will refrain. Go out around the traps with your rose tinted glasses off and see what I mean. Ohh and yes, some VH tails are just as bad just so you think I am not RAA bashing as some form of prejudice. I do have a foot in both camps.