PPL Instructors - Myth or Eventuality?
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If I had the time, I would.
At the moment you certainly aren't sitting on the fence - You've clearly supported the PPLs-should-be-instructors position, so stop kidding yourself and stand up for that, if that's what you believe.
Results count, not excuses.
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Gee, you've found me out. Oh well, my secret is out 
Not really, just participating in a healthy discussion on something interesting.
Quite obviously there are plenty of arguments for not having PPL instructors, but we know what they are so it has been entertaining thinking of reasons for.
UH, true, but seriously am pretty busy right till now. Might try and knock it on the head shortly.
Not really, just participating in a healthy discussion on something interesting.
Quite obviously there are plenty of arguments for not having PPL instructors, but we know what they are so it has been entertaining thinking of reasons for.
UH, true, but seriously am pretty busy right till now. Might try and knock it on the head shortly.
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OK, then lets look at a 'similar' sport/recreation/qualification.
In the world of SCUBA Diving there are recreational divers and commercial divers.
To become an instructor of recreational divers through one of the many (RAA like) agencies one has to have logged 100 or so recreational dives.
To become an instructor of Commercial divers one must be a commercial diver at least at that level (there are multiple levels and ratings). A Commercial diver cannot normally log commercial dives towards a recreational certificate because the two worlds are a chasm apart.
I would suggest the same of commercial piloting. CRM relates only tenuously to student instructor interaction. The PPL has no interest in profitability, nor in most cases complex aeroplanes (not that a 200 he CPL has much of a clue here either).
I have heard no argument that defines anything a CPL has that makes him or her the rightful 'only' instructor candidate. There are arguments that PPL experience doesn't coun't, but are they valid??? I don't know that there is much difference. However I did suggest NVFR or aeros to show the PPL isn't just 'basic'.
So, I remain all for it. I think it would breathe new life into aero-clubs and give a viable alterntive to the 'K-Mart' pilot factories springing up.
In the world of SCUBA Diving there are recreational divers and commercial divers.
To become an instructor of recreational divers through one of the many (RAA like) agencies one has to have logged 100 or so recreational dives.
To become an instructor of Commercial divers one must be a commercial diver at least at that level (there are multiple levels and ratings). A Commercial diver cannot normally log commercial dives towards a recreational certificate because the two worlds are a chasm apart.
I would suggest the same of commercial piloting. CRM relates only tenuously to student instructor interaction. The PPL has no interest in profitability, nor in most cases complex aeroplanes (not that a 200 he CPL has much of a clue here either).
I have heard no argument that defines anything a CPL has that makes him or her the rightful 'only' instructor candidate. There are arguments that PPL experience doesn't coun't, but are they valid??? I don't know that there is much difference. However I did suggest NVFR or aeros to show the PPL isn't just 'basic'.
So, I remain all for it. I think it would breathe new life into aero-clubs and give a viable alterntive to the 'K-Mart' pilot factories springing up.
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The whole issue might come down to simple practicalities. Who's going to teach PPLs in the future? CPLs are being fast-tracked to the regionals nowadays, which is putting considerable pressure on flying schools to find new instructors. Those who are still taking the instructing path are only doing it to build hours. If you were to give a young CPL the option of going instructing or straight into a multi-engined job, where do you think they would go?
Yes, there are some career instructors, but not very many at all. Then there are the small group of "amateur" CPLs who spend their weekdays earning real money and their weekends teaching flying. But if you take away all the instructors who are hour-building, there are not enough left of the first group to teach in the smaller schools.
I restate my question thus: if not PPLs with an IR, who's going to teach PPLs in the future?
Walrus
Yes, there are some career instructors, but not very many at all. Then there are the small group of "amateur" CPLs who spend their weekdays earning real money and their weekends teaching flying. But if you take away all the instructors who are hour-building, there are not enough left of the first group to teach in the smaller schools.
I restate my question thus: if not PPLs with an IR, who's going to teach PPLs in the future?
Walrus
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I'm for it.
These days if I'm doing anything regarding training (renewals, AFR, endorsments, etc.) I look for pilots with 2500+ hrs and won't go with anyone that has less. What do I care if they have a CPL or not (although all of them do, that's the current regs after all), they are the most experienced people I can find in their field.
BUT.
It's not up to either us or CASA at the end of the day.
What do the insurance companies think of it? They will set the limits, they will set the minimum requirements.
I'm seeing 1000hrs+, which is the whole point of being able to tap 'experience' in the first place, isn't it?
These days if I'm doing anything regarding training (renewals, AFR, endorsments, etc.) I look for pilots with 2500+ hrs and won't go with anyone that has less. What do I care if they have a CPL or not (although all of them do, that's the current regs after all), they are the most experienced people I can find in their field.
BUT.
It's not up to either us or CASA at the end of the day.
What do the insurance companies think of it? They will set the limits, they will set the minimum requirements.
I'm seeing 1000hrs+, which is the whole point of being able to tap 'experience' in the first place, isn't it?
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I agree with flog, except, 1000 hrs +
1000 hrs of what??
I would suggest 500 hrs with NVFR and/or PIFR and/or Aeros and/or Tailwheel etc is a better level of experience than 1000 hrs of 2 hrs cross countries.
I think an Emergency Manouvres Course like the one taught by Phil Unicomb at Action Aerobatics or similar (like Red Baron) should be a must for ANY instructor.
But, if you are going to apply an hour limit, do you apply it to CPLs??? (if not why not??)
I think 500 + EMT or Aeros plus the instructor course should do it.
1000 hrs of what??
I would suggest 500 hrs with NVFR and/or PIFR and/or Aeros and/or Tailwheel etc is a better level of experience than 1000 hrs of 2 hrs cross countries.
I think an Emergency Manouvres Course like the one taught by Phil Unicomb at Action Aerobatics or similar (like Red Baron) should be a must for ANY instructor.
But, if you are going to apply an hour limit, do you apply it to CPLs??? (if not why not??)
I think 500 + EMT or Aeros plus the instructor course should do it.
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Good point Mr Brewster - At least NVFR, Tailwheel and Aeros. Although I'm sure 1000hrs of 2hr cross countries would see their fair share of 'issues' to deal with, certainly more that a mint CPL. Add the above ratings to it and you have
I'd apply the limit to the PPL and not the CPL as we're trying to get something different from both.
From the CPL you're getting professional training, attitude and oversight (excluding the walk up, "just sit the exams and do the flight test" low time variety (not you XXX, you likely count in the next bit
)).
With the high time PPL you are trying to get to the experience and knowledge that only a high time pilot can bring to the party.
Much thought beyond the walls of this forum needs to happen. Sadly there's probably not the right brains in the rooms where this will be decided to give us the best possible solution.
I'd apply the limit to the PPL and not the CPL as we're trying to get something different from both.
From the CPL you're getting professional training, attitude and oversight (excluding the walk up, "just sit the exams and do the flight test" low time variety (not you XXX, you likely count in the next bit
)). With the high time PPL you are trying to get to the experience and knowledge that only a high time pilot can bring to the party.
Much thought beyond the walls of this forum needs to happen. Sadly there's probably not the right brains in the rooms where this will be decided to give us the best possible solution.
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The name and address I posted earlier has the ears for this and the greatest potential for action. All it would take is a letter to said individual. I'm counting myself out as I already have a proposal in. As per previous threads posted by Dick Smith, it is clear that they must acknowledge any proposals received and if this is considered best practice in other countries, then a safety proposal must be completed by CASA under it's charter of existence.
Does anyone know if this practice happens anywhere other than in Australia?
Does anyone know if this practice happens anywhere other than in Australia?
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Best way would be to get our various clubs and associations to write.
Some of the 'big' clubs won't be interested (see my flippant remark re K-Mart training) but the littleies should and perhaps the Confederation.
I doubt RAA will like it because it will be competition, what about AOPA???
Some of the 'big' clubs won't be interested (see my flippant remark re K-Mart training) but the littleies should and perhaps the Confederation.
I doubt RAA will like it because it will be competition, what about AOPA???
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One of the previous posters in this thread has close links to AOPA so perhaps he can tell us if they might be interested. I'll leave it to him to identify himself if he wants to get involved.
Thread Starter
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Gee Doc:
I hope that you are not referring to me as "the bunny" just because I initiated this thread; otherwise I could take offence.
All I did was highlight what is being considered by EASA.
On the one hand we rabbit on about the lack of experienced career pilots in GA - and then some bunny proposes something that undermines GA as a career even more.
All I did was highlight what is being considered by EASA.
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I agree. It was uncalled for and to be blunt, protectionism.
If it can be shown that there is no safety problem with PPLs (of a certain experience level) in comparison the mint CPLs, both with the appropriate instructor rating, teaching other PPLs, then to say what Doc said is the sort of unionism we criticise ATC for.
The world does not owe CPLs a living, they have to be better than the competition inside the 'QANTAS' recruiting system so why is this different.
If it can be shown that there is no safety problem with PPLs (of a certain experience level) in comparison the mint CPLs, both with the appropriate instructor rating, teaching other PPLs, then to say what Doc said is the sort of unionism we criticise ATC for.
The world does not owe CPLs a living, they have to be better than the competition inside the 'QANTAS' recruiting system so why is this different.
Sprucegoose
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you are trying to get to the experience and knowledge that only a high time pilot can bring to the party
I hope that you are not referring to me as "the bunny" just because I initiated this thread; otherwise I could take offence
If it can be shown that there is no safety problem with PPLs (of a certain experience level) in comparison the mint CPLs, both with the appropriate instructor rating, teaching other PPLs, then to say what Doc said is the sort of unionism we criticise ATC for
For the record - I have NO vested interest in this discussion! Although I hold a CPL, CIR and an Instructors Rating (lapsed!), I have never used any of these qualifications to put bread on the table - my choice. I have worked as a casual charter pilot while undertaking postgraduate university studies and I have instructed for an aeroclub. I am heavily involved in tertiary level training of professionals in a non-aviation field, and currrently fly about 250 hrs a year on private ops in support of business activities.
I am not and never have been a recreational or sport aviation pilot. I am a GA pilot!
I have met and flown with many, many pilots over the last 35 yrs, but have only ever met one PPL who I would be happy to have teach my son to fly - and he was an ex-WWII RAAF instructor!
I really don't give a rats what CASA do with this! Lets face it, well considered, intelligent policies are not exactly their forte!
I just think it is a really STUPID idea which will do nothing to reduce the aviation kill rate in this country - which makes me ill!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 11th Feb 2009 at 02:54.
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One of the previous posters in this thread has close links to AOPA so perhaps he can tell us if they might be interested. I'll leave it to him to identify himself if he wants to get involved.
Gawd I hope not there is enough wierd stuff here without that lot
Gawd I hope not there is enough wierd stuff here without that lot
Oh for god's sake.
It's already happening.
If you want PPLs for instructors, go RAAus.
It's already happening.
If you want PPLs for instructors, go RAAus.
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A few points
First of all if there are PPL instructors it means they can't get paid. That is a completely seperate but important issue.
Personally I beleive CPL trained pilots even if they are bare minimum can provide better training than a PPL holder.
Before you lambast me I beleive I have qualifications to speak, ex Grade1 multi instructor, total around 8000 hours.
I may be experienced now but I dont have confidence to instruct as I have been out of it for quite a few years, I think the most up to date people are the best, and even green instructors are much more up to date and used to it.
I reject anyone comparing GA to sport RAA its completely seperate, if you want that go there dont push the policies here.
Its just my 2 cents worth, trust me I had many a student try to put me into a Vmca death spin but alas I survived! lol!
Personally I beleive CPL trained pilots even if they are bare minimum can provide better training than a PPL holder.
Before you lambast me I beleive I have qualifications to speak, ex Grade1 multi instructor, total around 8000 hours.
I may be experienced now but I dont have confidence to instruct as I have been out of it for quite a few years, I think the most up to date people are the best, and even green instructors are much more up to date and used to it.
I reject anyone comparing GA to sport RAA its completely seperate, if you want that go there dont push the policies here.
Its just my 2 cents worth, trust me I had many a student try to put me into a Vmca death spin but alas I survived! lol!
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AofA, you're also stuck in a rutt. How do RAA instructors get paid? They don't even (necessarily) have a PPL! and the ones that do, are about to be giving CTA endorsements! If the powers wanted it to happen, it easily could.
The fact remains that you don't need a CPL to be a good instructor.
I wouldn't feel threatened if I was anyone on here, I can't see it happening in the near future but it is a healthy discussion.
The fact remains that you don't need a CPL to be a good instructor.
I wouldn't feel threatened if I was anyone on here, I can't see it happening in the near future but it is a healthy discussion.
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FTDK,
CASA can't reduce the kill rate in GA; only pilots can do that. I would venture (at the risk of being shot down) that poor attitude, not poor training, is the biggest contributor to GA accidents.
XXX,
With regards to the comments about AOPA, we all have close links to them. All you need do is send an e-mail to Tim Blatch [email protected] and pose the question. Indeed, I would think that Tim would watch this forum and might like to post the answer himself.
Walrus
CASA can't reduce the kill rate in GA; only pilots can do that. I would venture (at the risk of being shot down) that poor attitude, not poor training, is the biggest contributor to GA accidents.
XXX,
With regards to the comments about AOPA, we all have close links to them. All you need do is send an e-mail to Tim Blatch [email protected] and pose the question. Indeed, I would think that Tim would watch this forum and might like to post the answer himself.
Walrus