2006 Willowbank 206 crash
What the f*ck? Squarky?? Is that you? Where you bin, mate? I heard you were dead!
Nope, anyone trying to turn the fuel off in the Bo from the RH front seat is gonna have to get quite personal with me, and unless you have two X chromosomes and a generous supply of oestradiol is gonna get you a good whack with the fire extinguisher!
Dr
I suppose you would never have that problem Dr in the Bo!
Dr
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Whats the differnce between turning the fuel off and cutting the mixture? honestly? Both achieve the same damn consequence. Its moving a valve which limits the AVGAS getting to the engine. Im not looking for an argument but pointing out a plain simple statement. Turning the fuel valve off in flight is absolutely as safe as pulling mixture period.
Edit- of course not at low level if anyone was gonna have a go at me about that. its high level thing. common sense common sense
Edit- of course not at low level if anyone was gonna have a go at me about that. its high level thing. common sense common sense
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In every one of my ME training flights and on every assymetric i did on my CIR initial and renewals all engine failures were by the instructor/ATO using the mixture control. Usually the aircraft folder of a piece of paper or something handy was used to cover the mixture controls so I couldnt get a peek at which donk was going to die. Even the practice failures after takeoff were done with mixture.
Angle of Attack as part of my initial multi engine training i had to do a practice engine failure just before decision speed, just after the nose had come off the ground and a fully feathered landing.
Both the last 2 made me quite nervous. Both the fully feathered landing and engine failure before decision speed were briefed considerably before we left terra firma and they were done within strict guidelines. I can't remember what they were now.
300
Angle of Attack as part of my initial multi engine training i had to do a practice engine failure just before decision speed, just after the nose had come off the ground and a fully feathered landing.
Both the last 2 made me quite nervous. Both the fully feathered landing and engine failure before decision speed were briefed considerably before we left terra firma and they were done within strict guidelines. I can't remember what they were now.
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fully feathered landing and engine failure on rotation in a duchess. but every other engine failure in all the twins ive flown have been done using the mixture.
P68, B76, B58, C310
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P68, B76, B58, C310
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I don't believe this
I cannot believe that a pilot can get a CPL and 400 hours without ever having some EFATO training and practise.
Surely there must be some mistake here. If this is the case then his training is incomplete.
Also, I was in twin engined aircraft many many times when an engine was shut down by using the mixture control for practice and/or testing. Sometimes in the LHS and sometimes in the RHS. On takeoff the shutdown occurred "not below 50 feet,with gear up, not below VMCA plus ten" and was briefed as such at the beginning of the flight. Sometimes it occurred below your decision speed, in which case you stopped.
And the flight would generally conclude with an instrument approach (usually ILS) during which an engine failure would be simulated with the mixture control. An assymetric go around would be required at the minima.
Twin endorsements required a feathered landing.
I'm glad we did those things, because then I knew I could handle such things. And all my blokes (and girls) did too.
Surely there must be some mistake here. If this is the case then his training is incomplete.
Also, I was in twin engined aircraft many many times when an engine was shut down by using the mixture control for practice and/or testing. Sometimes in the LHS and sometimes in the RHS. On takeoff the shutdown occurred "not below 50 feet,with gear up, not below VMCA plus ten" and was briefed as such at the beginning of the flight. Sometimes it occurred below your decision speed, in which case you stopped.
And the flight would generally conclude with an instrument approach (usually ILS) during which an engine failure would be simulated with the mixture control. An assymetric go around would be required at the minima.
Twin endorsements required a feathered landing.
I'm glad we did those things, because then I knew I could handle such things. And all my blokes (and girls) did too.
Last edited by bushy; 25th Jan 2009 at 01:39.
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Rubbery rules?
The Coroner has commented on CASA's interpretation of the act in such a way that they ruled flights for tandem jumping wre private operations.
Charter operators have been shut down for operating in the same way as most tandem jump aircraft operators do, because CASA said it was RPT.
1. They advertise their services, and particular flights and places in the media.
2. The flights are scheduled for a particular time.
3. Passengers (the coroner has said they are passengers) pay only for their own transport. They do not charter the whole aircraft.
4.The flights are from fixed places to fixed places.(terminals?)
This makes the operation RPT.
For a long time there has been doubt about the way CASA categorises operations but no one has had the legal muscle to challenge this. The ambiguity about this has caused operators to go out of business, or have their AOC withdrawn. What are "fixed terminals??
What are "scheduled flights" ( a court decided that a "scheduled flight" is any flight that is arranged to depart at a particular time.) Looks like they are all scheduled flights.
The whole thing should be re written to eliminate the ambiguity and get some consistency in it's interpretation. It should be simplified and made more precise and definite.
We should all re read the Phelan papers.
Charter operators have been shut down for operating in the same way as most tandem jump aircraft operators do, because CASA said it was RPT.
1. They advertise their services, and particular flights and places in the media.
2. The flights are scheduled for a particular time.
3. Passengers (the coroner has said they are passengers) pay only for their own transport. They do not charter the whole aircraft.
4.The flights are from fixed places to fixed places.(terminals?)
This makes the operation RPT.
For a long time there has been doubt about the way CASA categorises operations but no one has had the legal muscle to challenge this. The ambiguity about this has caused operators to go out of business, or have their AOC withdrawn. What are "fixed terminals??
What are "scheduled flights" ( a court decided that a "scheduled flight" is any flight that is arranged to depart at a particular time.) Looks like they are all scheduled flights.
The whole thing should be re written to eliminate the ambiguity and get some consistency in it's interpretation. It should be simplified and made more precise and definite.
We should all re read the Phelan papers.
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Whats the differnce between turning the fuel off and cutting the mixture?
If you cut the mixture the engine will stop producing power immediately, and when you put the mixture back to rich the engine will start producing power immediately.
Big difference.
Usually the aircraft folder of a piece of paper or something handy was used to cover
I use throttle for the initial engine failure practice, Vmca demo (although there are those who say we shouldn't be doing that either), and low level engine failures. I do not initiate any engine failures below 300 ft AGL - ever - and usually use a higher minimum height depending on the situation.
I use mixture for all other engine failures because the restoration of power is immediate, and the engine manufacturers' published data says it's less stressful for the engine than the pumping stresses which happen when you close the throttle.
But then I learnt my META from the same bloke that the Dr refers to. And he's bloody good.
If my closing the mixture is a problem for anyone, then I'm very happy if we don't fly together.
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They did it themselves
AV8R
It's interesting that CASA say this is dangerous. They used to do it themselves every time an FOI tested someone for an instrument rating renewal.
It's interesting that CASA say this is dangerous. They used to do it themselves every time an FOI tested someone for an instrument rating renewal.
Im not looking for an argument but pointing out a plain simple statement. Turning the fuel valve off in flight is absolutely as safe as pulling mixture period.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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There is no regulation requiring students or instructors to demonstrate a feathered approach and landing, either on initial twin or endorsement training on type. Unless the specific aircraft type is known to exhibit unusual handling characteristics
with a propeller feathered (such as marked yaw at the flare), there is no point in taking unnecessary risks by deliberately
feathering a propeller for landing when the safest option is to throttle back to zero thrust.
with a propeller feathered (such as marked yaw at the flare), there is no point in taking unnecessary risks by deliberately
feathering a propeller for landing when the safest option is to throttle back to zero thrust.
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Originally Posted by MakeItHappenCaptain
...I know of a number of Partenavia operators who don't want the fuel taps manipulated due to wear and possibility of failure (even x-feed checks during taxiing...
Personally, I always check the x-feeds as a part of my daily run-up... I want to be certain that:
- they work, and
- the fuel available is accessible, should I need it!
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P68 fuel systems
It is a good idea to study the fuel system in p68's as it does have a couple of tricks.
The fuel selectors have sometimes been known to seize up so they cannot be moved. It is worth checking these regularly. But I was always wary if making changes to fuel selectors immediately before takeoff.
One operator I knew took his family for a trip in his P68 and when he got to his destination he selected the fuel selectors to "crossfeed-engine off" . He then had the aircraft refuelled to full tanks and went off for the night, thinking he had turned the fuel off.
But the aircraft was parked on sloping ground and when he came out in the morning he found it almost balancing on one mainwheel, with fuel dribbling out of the fuel tank vent on the downhill side, and not much fuel in the uphill tanks.
Most embarassing, and he also had to pay a hefty call out fee for the refueller.
The fuel selectors have sometimes been known to seize up so they cannot be moved. It is worth checking these regularly. But I was always wary if making changes to fuel selectors immediately before takeoff.
One operator I knew took his family for a trip in his P68 and when he got to his destination he selected the fuel selectors to "crossfeed-engine off" . He then had the aircraft refuelled to full tanks and went off for the night, thinking he had turned the fuel off.
But the aircraft was parked on sloping ground and when he came out in the morning he found it almost balancing on one mainwheel, with fuel dribbling out of the fuel tank vent on the downhill side, and not much fuel in the uphill tanks.
Most embarassing, and he also had to pay a hefty call out fee for the refueller.
Personally, I always check the x-feeds as a part of my daily run-up...
My line up cx always include fuel selector position as a follow on to the pre t/o cx.
One of those who advocated leaving the selectors on was Humph Maltman (RIP) and I'm sure many will agree he knew his stuff.
I've seen two instances of x-feeding and overflowing in the party-van. As the weight reduces from the upward wing, everything just gets worse....
