Was the Nomad really that bad?
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GregP, as an ex RAEME fitter I would agree with your assessment of the Nomad and it's history.
Want to say more but this isn't the forum for that.
Lynn and the flight fitter on 303 were comrades of mine at the time, and the thought that Lynn chopped the throttle at take off is absurd.
Want to say more but this isn't the forum for that.
Lynn and the flight fitter on 303 were comrades of mine at the time, and the thought that Lynn chopped the throttle at take off is absurd.
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a mechanics view
Currawong, I will defer to others about the aerodynamics and so forth.
As a Engine fitter and then Dual Trades, I preferred the Porter due to it's simplicity and having Pratt and Whitney power.
The Nomad was more complicated, for instance the system for the flap/aileron/spoiler interconnect was a nightmare.
As mentioned earlier the constant chip lights from the early three planetary geared prop reduction gearboxes was a huge issue.
Structural failure was the cause of Crash Donovan's death, I recall no other structural or aerodynamic failures.
Flying into terrain in Kokoda isn't failure of the machine.
As a Engine fitter and then Dual Trades, I preferred the Porter due to it's simplicity and having Pratt and Whitney power.
The Nomad was more complicated, for instance the system for the flap/aileron/spoiler interconnect was a nightmare.
As mentioned earlier the constant chip lights from the early three planetary geared prop reduction gearboxes was a huge issue.
Structural failure was the cause of Crash Donovan's death, I recall no other structural or aerodynamic failures.
Flying into terrain in Kokoda isn't failure of the machine.
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If the N22B was flown in normal civilian operations within its envelope it was okay. If you moved into the military style envelope of combat power down in the weeds, ducking around trees and up creek beds it was scary. Likewise don't try and hang around Vne because the tailplane developed a vibration like driving a vehicle with poor suspension on a dirt road with a corduroy surface.
The one that crashed at ARDU was operating from memory at Vne +
It reminded me of operating the B35 V tail. Operate it conservatively and you will be okay - get daring and your may well crash as many B35 drivers did when the tail separated at the upper end of the speed and G force envelope.
It was a very agrarian/industrial piece of kit, underpowered but great little Allison engines that sipped juice. In PNG Ops in the highlands it demanded careful prior prep and planning and a ready supply of undies for both the pilot and the pax. A Twin Otter was just so much more reassuring.
The one that crashed at ARDU was operating from memory at Vne +
It reminded me of operating the B35 V tail. Operate it conservatively and you will be okay - get daring and your may well crash as many B35 drivers did when the tail separated at the upper end of the speed and G force envelope.
It was a very agrarian/industrial piece of kit, underpowered but great little Allison engines that sipped juice. In PNG Ops in the highlands it demanded careful prior prep and planning and a ready supply of undies for both the pilot and the pax. A Twin Otter was just so much more reassuring.
"The one that crashed at ARDU was operating from memory at Vne +"
That's not my memory. Please supply evidence that you are correct.
Otherwise that is quite a smear against Glenn's airmanship.
That's not my memory. Please supply evidence that you are correct.
Otherwise that is quite a smear against Glenn's airmanship.
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Gerry the stabilator broke away as you would know.
The reason it cracked is not certain.
100's of hours of unrecorded ground runs at full noise with ARDU is my presumption.
The reason it cracked is not certain.
100's of hours of unrecorded ground runs at full noise with ARDU is my presumption.
Last edited by Eddie Dean; 27th Mar 2016 at 10:55. Reason: Chance retired
The many hours of ground running was by GAF not ARDU. Not unrecorded (my recollection) but certainly not considered wrt safe life of the tailplane spar.
Eddie Dean, The stabilator certainly failed and that was the reason for the aircraft being destroyed and the death of the pilot.
djpil, That is my recollection also.
chance, Please? Your evidence that the ARDU pilot was flying at a speed beyond Vne is?
djpil, That is my recollection also.
chance, Please? Your evidence that the ARDU pilot was flying at a speed beyond Vne is?
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I guess we will never know the final flight manoeuvres by GD over Mallala all those years ago. Maybe not Vne + ; my memory may have be thinking of some other accident and is no reflection on Flt Lt GD.
What we do know is best summed up by Senator David McGibbon's speech to the parliament on the Senate inquiry into the accident which revealed a litany of stuff ups by GAF/ASTA and ARDU Engineering when the aircraft was returned to the RAAF after a couple of years. The Board of Inquiry was also heavily censored as delivering a sub-optimal report.
GD accepted the aircraft in good faith to conduct the test flight. He was let down by a whole lot of people from ASTA through to ARDU and onto the system set up by top brass.
Hope you gerry111understand my point of view.
What we do know is best summed up by Senator David McGibbon's speech to the parliament on the Senate inquiry into the accident which revealed a litany of stuff ups by GAF/ASTA and ARDU Engineering when the aircraft was returned to the RAAF after a couple of years. The Board of Inquiry was also heavily censored as delivering a sub-optimal report.
GD accepted the aircraft in good faith to conduct the test flight. He was let down by a whole lot of people from ASTA through to ARDU and onto the system set up by top brass.
Hope you gerry111understand my point of view.
chance,
Thank you for your reply. There's no hard feelings from me to you!
I agree that there was a chain of avoidable events that could have prevented this accident.
But I'll always strongly suspect that the failure of the stabilator was not caused by Glenn flying beyond Vne.
Thank you for your reply. There's no hard feelings from me to you!
I agree that there was a chain of avoidable events that could have prevented this accident.
But I'll always strongly suspect that the failure of the stabilator was not caused by Glenn flying beyond Vne.
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I think I must stick my nose in here.
(a) as far as I am aware, the most knowledgeable chap in the PPRuNe sandpit regarding Nomad engineering is djpil - his counsel in that area should be viewed as expert. His identity and background is sufficiently well-known that I don't think he would object to my comment - if he does, I'm sure he will let me know and I will remove it. Certainly, he is far too modest to suggest it himself.
(b) The one that crashed at ARDU was operating from memory at Vne +
How strange.
The TP who got out after the previous landing and watched the subsequent mishap related his version of events to me some years later .. my impression was that Glen was flying a fairly normal sort of circuit ? Vne-plus ? Come on, now .. a bit too much moonshine, methinks ..
If you don't KNOW, then it probably is better to be conservative in your comments - particularly where they can hurt the memory of those who are no longer with us and, hence, unable to defend themselves. I spoke with Glen's brother at length on several occasions in association with the Senate Enquiry - I don't think the family would be impressed by your accusation.
(c) It reminded me of operating the B35 V tail.
If I recall correctly, the earlier tailplane D-section attachment was beefed up in the normal Type ICA manner after the initial mishaps. Not overly different to numerous other Type problems in service.
Not particularly relevant to the Nomad's tail problems.
(d) A Twin Otter was just so much more reassuring.
Perhaps, but you are comparing apples and oranges.
(e) Gerry the stabilator broke away as you would know. The reason it cracked is not certain.
I suggest the reason is quite clear - fatigue damage.
The problem was that the crack was not detected and the damage fixed (which was the intent of the inspection protocol) prior to the mishap. My understanding has always been that a post-GAF inspection deferred iaw protocol proved to be unfortunate on this occasion. As I indicated earlier, the final factory inspection was performed by a colleague for whom I had the highest professional regard. I have no doubt in my mind that the aircraft was returned without any visual evidence of cracking.
(f) 100's of hours of unrecorded ground runs at full noise with ARDU is my presumption.
I don't know whether ARDU did any ground run work but, as djpil has suggested, you probably are confusing the work done by GAF on the aircraft. Unfortunately, it is a bit far back and I cannot remember the available specific data relating to the ground run work - which I looked into as part of the Senate Enquiry activities undertaken by then ASTA.
(g) What we do know ..
I suspect that you don't have much detailed background regarding the Senate Enquiry ? I had no problems with the Senators, per se, but it should be noted that they did have difficulties with some of the more arcane engineering concepts with which they were faced during that period.
(a) as far as I am aware, the most knowledgeable chap in the PPRuNe sandpit regarding Nomad engineering is djpil - his counsel in that area should be viewed as expert. His identity and background is sufficiently well-known that I don't think he would object to my comment - if he does, I'm sure he will let me know and I will remove it. Certainly, he is far too modest to suggest it himself.
(b) The one that crashed at ARDU was operating from memory at Vne +
How strange.
The TP who got out after the previous landing and watched the subsequent mishap related his version of events to me some years later .. my impression was that Glen was flying a fairly normal sort of circuit ? Vne-plus ? Come on, now .. a bit too much moonshine, methinks ..
If you don't KNOW, then it probably is better to be conservative in your comments - particularly where they can hurt the memory of those who are no longer with us and, hence, unable to defend themselves. I spoke with Glen's brother at length on several occasions in association with the Senate Enquiry - I don't think the family would be impressed by your accusation.
(c) It reminded me of operating the B35 V tail.
If I recall correctly, the earlier tailplane D-section attachment was beefed up in the normal Type ICA manner after the initial mishaps. Not overly different to numerous other Type problems in service.
Not particularly relevant to the Nomad's tail problems.
(d) A Twin Otter was just so much more reassuring.
Perhaps, but you are comparing apples and oranges.
(e) Gerry the stabilator broke away as you would know. The reason it cracked is not certain.
I suggest the reason is quite clear - fatigue damage.
The problem was that the crack was not detected and the damage fixed (which was the intent of the inspection protocol) prior to the mishap. My understanding has always been that a post-GAF inspection deferred iaw protocol proved to be unfortunate on this occasion. As I indicated earlier, the final factory inspection was performed by a colleague for whom I had the highest professional regard. I have no doubt in my mind that the aircraft was returned without any visual evidence of cracking.
(f) 100's of hours of unrecorded ground runs at full noise with ARDU is my presumption.
I don't know whether ARDU did any ground run work but, as djpil has suggested, you probably are confusing the work done by GAF on the aircraft. Unfortunately, it is a bit far back and I cannot remember the available specific data relating to the ground run work - which I looked into as part of the Senate Enquiry activities undertaken by then ASTA.
(g) What we do know ..
I suspect that you don't have much detailed background regarding the Senate Enquiry ? I had no problems with the Senators, per se, but it should be noted that they did have difficulties with some of the more arcane engineering concepts with which they were faced during that period.
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JT,
Your comment " a bit too much moonshine, me thinks" is a pejorative comment and should be retracted. I replied to Gerry 111 that I had got it wrong.
Be gracious enough.
I am not sure if any of the recent thread folks have test pilot experience, but if they have then they will understand what we do. I was a TP with the Royal Air Force on lots of types so I know the game and the dangers.
I now understand that this is still raw after some 26 years with lots of you folks and I sympathise with those of you who were personally affected.
Let it be for the memory of GD.
Your comment " a bit too much moonshine, me thinks" is a pejorative comment and should be retracted. I replied to Gerry 111 that I had got it wrong.
Be gracious enough.
I am not sure if any of the recent thread folks have test pilot experience, but if they have then they will understand what we do. I was a TP with the Royal Air Force on lots of types so I know the game and the dangers.
I now understand that this is still raw after some 26 years with lots of you folks and I sympathise with those of you who were personally affected.
Let it be for the memory of GD
.
Moderator
I figured you were from a TP background .. my comment was tongue in cheek but quite happy to withdraw it. I think my attempts-at-humour score is running against me .. I probably should give up and just be serious.
I don't know that feelings still run raw to any extent .. however, there was much ducking and weaving at the time, as one would imagine, and disinformation was rife in some quarters. Several of us, who did have inside information, periodically feel moved to correct that which is incorrect.
Glen was just unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. His colleague, on the other hand, never revealed to me whether he went out and purchased a wad of lottery tickets that evening ... probably wouldn't have done him any good .. his allotment of luck for that month had been well and truly spent ..
I don't know that feelings still run raw to any extent .. however, there was much ducking and weaving at the time, as one would imagine, and disinformation was rife in some quarters. Several of us, who did have inside information, periodically feel moved to correct that which is incorrect.
Glen was just unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. His colleague, on the other hand, never revealed to me whether he went out and purchased a wad of lottery tickets that evening ... probably wouldn't have done him any good .. his allotment of luck for that month had been well and truly spent ..
