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Was the Nomad really that bad?

Old 23rd Mar 2016, 07:07
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Question for GregP or someone else that knows -

How did the Nomad rate compared to the Porter?

Thanks.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 09:34
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Hey GregP,

How about you tell us more about the Tindal sham and the Mt Isa misadventure?

Or perhaps relate to us all the ATC transcript from Glenns loss in Adelaide?


Australian Broadcasting Corporation
TV PROGRAM TRANSCRIPT
LOCATION: 7.30 Report - 27/07/2004: The history of the widow maker revealed

Broadcast: 27/07/2004
The history of the 'widow maker' revealed

Reporter: Peter McCutcheon

KERRY O'BRIEN: The recent suicide of a former Army aircraft fitter has shed new light on a sorry chapter in Australia's aviation history.

The Australian designed Nomad aircraft gained notoriety in the 1970s because of its poor safety record.

But despite warnings about possible design faults, the Nomad - sometimes referred to as "the widow maker" - wasn't grounded by the military until 1995.

Earlier this year, one of the technicians who worked on the aircraft in the early 90s took his own life.

His widow is now fighting for official recognition that he too was a victim of the Nomad scandal.

Peter McCutcheon reports.

MADONNA PAUL: It's never been about the money, it's about the fact that they damaged all of our family's lives and they never recognised it, they covered it up.

PETER McCUTCHEON: On a deserted beach at Cungulla south of Townsville, Madonna Paul is still coming to terms with her husband's suicide five months ago.

Former Army aircraft fitter Michael Paul suffered from a psychiatric illness that, according to his widow, began more than a decade earlier after a crash of the now notorious Nomad aircraft.

REPORTER: ...lost radio contact and crashed around 10 this morning.

MADONNA PAUL: He had worked on that aircraft that crashed.

He signed that aircraft up and it killed his friends.

He never really got over that day.

He came home from work and he was a different man.

And from years later, when I look back at the incident and from that night, that changed our lives forever.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Michael Paul's personal tragedy is tied up in the final years of the Nomad scandal.

This Australian-designed transport aircraft was once the hope of the local aviation industry, but in two decades of service 19 Nomads crashed, resulting in 56 deaths.

And as Four Corners revealed in 1995, a number of design defects, including stress cracks in the tail plane, were in effect covered up by Defence officials.

PAUL HUGHES, NOMAD DESIGN ENGINEER: Everybody was supposed to be behind the Nomad because it was Australian, because it was designed here and you weren't supposed to knock it.

PETER McCUTCHEON: A qualified boilermaker before joining Army aircraft maintenance, Michael Paul started working on the Nomads at the Oakey base in south-east Queensland in late 1989.

As a fitter, he had no authority to ground an aircraft, but he was required to sign off on the work he completed.

His wife says he raised concerns about the Nomad's design problems, only to be threatened with disciplinary action.

MADONNA PAUL: He just said, "This is just not meant to fly."

The aircraft was dangerous, and he kept saying that.

PETER McCUTCHEON: And he was told by his commanding officer to keep quiet?

MADONNA PAUL: Yes.

"Keep quiet, sign it up or you'll be charged."

PETER McCUTCHEON: But the situation changed from professional frustration to emotional devastation in 1991 when a Nomad Michael Paul had worked on crashed in northern New South Wales, killing four people, including a close friend.

When did you first notice your husband was having difficulties?

MADONNA PAUL: From that night of the accident, after the accident occurred, he came home, he was just numb and he went to the garage and sat in the dark.

PETER McCUTCHEON: A subsequent investigation was unable to determine the cause of the accident, but others suspect the Nomad's alleged design faults.

Tony Seivl is a former senior flying instructor at Oakey who had resigned a year before the accident in protest over the Nomad's safety problems.

He was a friend of Lynn Hummerston, the pilot killed in the 1991 crash.

Although he was unwilling to be interviewed for this report, Tony Seivl stands by his comments to Four Corners nine years ago.

TONY SEIVL, FORMER ARMY PILOT: The only thing I can say, and I'll say it categorically, it wasn't pilot error and again I have no facts to base that other than knowing Lynn Hummerston and knowing the sort of guy and pilot and instructor he was over those number of years.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Michael Paul's emotional state, according to his wife, continued to deteriorate, especially after he witnessed a Nomad's emergency landing at Oakey a few weeks later.

After leaving the Army and moving north, Michael Paul experienced a complete breakdown three years ago while flying through a storm in a light aircraft.

MADONNA PAUL: He couldn't go to work.

He couldn't function.

He - he - he collapsed, virtually.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Nevertheless, an application last year for a military disability pension was refused.

Although the Veterans' Review Board acknowledged Michael Paul suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder, it was not convinced the condition, on a balance of probabilities, was Defence caused.

Can you think of any other reason why your husband would have suffered from post-traumatic stress?

MADONNA PAUL: No.

There was no car accidents, there was nothing else.

There was nothing.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Madonna Paul convinced her husband to begin lodging an appeal, but Michael Paul secretly withdrew the application without telling his wife.

She knew he was reluctant to go ahead with another hearing, but didn't find out what he was up to until after his suicide.

PROFESSOR SANDY McFARLANE, PSYCHIATRIST, ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY: The process of the repeat examination often takes the person to the very thing that they are trying not to think about because they find it very distressing.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Professor Sandy McFarlane is a post-traumatic stress expert at Adelaide University.

Although he argues the military's repatriation scheme is in fact fairer to claimants than civil jurisdictions, he says even the best processes can be daunting for patients.

PROFESSOR SANDY McFARLANE: Obviously having to speak about it can be extremely difficult, particularly if there are feelings of shame or profound fear associated with those memories.

PETER McCUTCHEON: The Veterans' Review Board says it can't comment on an individual case and, for the Defence Force, the Nomad scandal became ancient history when it grounded the aircraft in 1995.

But for Madonna Paul, left to raise an 18 and 10-year-old on her own, it is still very much a part of her life.

MADONNA PAUL: I will fight on because I want the children to know that we can have some closure on this, and why we lost Michael and why we suffered all those years.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Peter McCutcheon reporting, for some people at least, the curse of the Nomad.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 21:49
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Apparently Mahindra/Gippsland are have issues getting the GA10 certified and the N24 project has not even started.
Given the relative success of the Twin Otter re-launch, I can't see Mahindra getting the N24 back to market anytime this decade.
Can anyone close to Mahindra post a true update of the GA10 and/or N24?
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 00:36
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They tell me that a Nomad has just been "dropped off" at the Moorabbin Aviation Museum. I wonder what the history of this particular aircraft is...
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 06:31
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A part answer to Currawong's request.
ADF personnel killed in various types operated by Army.
Nomad - 3
Porter - 9
Blackhawk - 20 something
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 07:23
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Originally Posted by gerry111 View Post
172 Nomads were built.


In an ABC '7-30 Report' on 27 Jul 04, it was reported that 19 aircraft had crashed with 56 deaths.


Not a particularly good record of safety.
Utter rubbish!!
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 07:27
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Originally Posted by ramble on View Post
Hey GregP,

How about you tell us more about the Tindal sham and the Mt Isa misadventure?

Or perhaps relate to us all the ATC transcript from Glenns loss in Adelaide?


Australian Broadcasting Corporation
TV PROGRAM TRANSCRIPT
LOCATION: 7.30 Report - 27/07/2004: The history of the widow maker revealed

Broadcast: 27/07/2004
The history of the 'widow maker' revealed

Reporter: Peter McCutcheon

KERRY O'BRIEN: The recent suicide of a former Army aircraft fitter has shed new light on a sorry chapter in Australia's aviation history.

The Australian designed Nomad aircraft gained notoriety in the 1970s because of its poor safety record.

But despite warnings about possible design faults, the Nomad - sometimes referred to as "the widow maker" - wasn't grounded by the military until 1995.

Earlier this year, one of the technicians who worked on the aircraft in the early 90s took his own life.

His widow is now fighting for official recognition that he too was a victim of the Nomad scandal.

Peter McCutcheon reports.

MADONNA PAUL: It's never been about the money, it's about the fact that they damaged all of our family's lives and they never recognised it, they covered it up.

PETER McCUTCHEON: On a deserted beach at Cungulla south of Townsville, Madonna Paul is still coming to terms with her husband's suicide five months ago.

Former Army aircraft fitter Michael Paul suffered from a psychiatric illness that, according to his widow, began more than a decade earlier after a crash of the now notorious Nomad aircraft.

REPORTER: ...lost radio contact and crashed around 10 this morning.

MADONNA PAUL: He had worked on that aircraft that crashed.

He signed that aircraft up and it killed his friends.

He never really got over that day.

He came home from work and he was a different man.

And from years later, when I look back at the incident and from that night, that changed our lives forever.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Michael Paul's personal tragedy is tied up in the final years of the Nomad scandal.

This Australian-designed transport aircraft was once the hope of the local aviation industry, but in two decades of service 19 Nomads crashed, resulting in 56 deaths.

And as Four Corners revealed in 1995, a number of design defects, including stress cracks in the tail plane, were in effect covered up by Defence officials.

PAUL HUGHES, NOMAD DESIGN ENGINEER: Everybody was supposed to be behind the Nomad because it was Australian, because it was designed here and you weren't supposed to knock it.

PETER McCUTCHEON: A qualified boilermaker before joining Army aircraft maintenance, Michael Paul started working on the Nomads at the Oakey base in south-east Queensland in late 1989.

As a fitter, he had no authority to ground an aircraft, but he was required to sign off on the work he completed.

His wife says he raised concerns about the Nomad's design problems, only to be threatened with disciplinary action.

MADONNA PAUL: He just said, "This is just not meant to fly."

The aircraft was dangerous, and he kept saying that.

PETER McCUTCHEON: And he was told by his commanding officer to keep quiet?

MADONNA PAUL: Yes.

"Keep quiet, sign it up or you'll be charged."

PETER McCUTCHEON: But the situation changed from professional frustration to emotional devastation in 1991 when a Nomad Michael Paul had worked on crashed in northern New South Wales, killing four people, including a close friend.

When did you first notice your husband was having difficulties?

MADONNA PAUL: From that night of the accident, after the accident occurred, he came home, he was just numb and he went to the garage and sat in the dark.

PETER McCUTCHEON: A subsequent investigation was unable to determine the cause of the accident, but others suspect the Nomad's alleged design faults.

Tony Seivl is a former senior flying instructor at Oakey who had resigned a year before the accident in protest over the Nomad's safety problems.

He was a friend of Lynn Hummerston, the pilot killed in the 1991 crash.

Although he was unwilling to be interviewed for this report, Tony Seivl stands by his comments to Four Corners nine years ago.

TONY SEIVL, FORMER ARMY PILOT: The only thing I can say, and I'll say it categorically, it wasn't pilot error and again I have no facts to base that other than knowing Lynn Hummerston and knowing the sort of guy and pilot and instructor he was over those number of years.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Michael Paul's emotional state, according to his wife, continued to deteriorate, especially after he witnessed a Nomad's emergency landing at Oakey a few weeks later.

After leaving the Army and moving north, Michael Paul experienced a complete breakdown three years ago while flying through a storm in a light aircraft.

MADONNA PAUL: He couldn't go to work.

He couldn't function.

He - he - he collapsed, virtually.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Nevertheless, an application last year for a military disability pension was refused.

Although the Veterans' Review Board acknowledged Michael Paul suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder, it was not convinced the condition, on a balance of probabilities, was Defence caused.

Can you think of any other reason why your husband would have suffered from post-traumatic stress?

MADONNA PAUL: No.

There was no car accidents, there was nothing else.

There was nothing.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Madonna Paul convinced her husband to begin lodging an appeal, but Michael Paul secretly withdrew the application without telling his wife.

She knew he was reluctant to go ahead with another hearing, but didn't find out what he was up to until after his suicide.

PROFESSOR SANDY McFARLANE, PSYCHIATRIST, ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY: The process of the repeat examination often takes the person to the very thing that they are trying not to think about because they find it very distressing.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Professor Sandy McFarlane is a post-traumatic stress expert at Adelaide University.

Although he argues the military's repatriation scheme is in fact fairer to claimants than civil jurisdictions, he says even the best processes can be daunting for patients.

PROFESSOR SANDY McFARLANE: Obviously having to speak about it can be extremely difficult, particularly if there are feelings of shame or profound fear associated with those memories.

PETER McCUTCHEON: The Veterans' Review Board says it can't comment on an individual case and, for the Defence Force, the Nomad scandal became ancient history when it grounded the aircraft in 1995.

But for Madonna Paul, left to raise an 18 and 10-year-old on her own, it is still very much a part of her life.

MADONNA PAUL: I will fight on because I want the children to know that we can have some closure on this, and why we lost Michael and why we suffered all those years.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Peter McCutcheon reporting, for some people at least, the curse of the Nomad.
This is an interview with a disgruntled mechanic ... if you take that as good evidence for the aircraft's operational history, perhaps i can interest you in a parcel of shares of the Harbour Bridge ??
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 08:06
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They tell me that a Nomad has just been "dropped off" at the Moorabbin Aviation Museum. I wonder what the history of this particular aircraft is...
According to their website, A18-316 donated by Mahindra.
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 08:08
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Originally Posted by gerry111 View Post
GregP,


As you well know, the Nomad was manufactured by a Federal Government owned aerospace manufacturer: GAF which later became ASTA.


So I'm surprised that you, as a government employed investigator, were not privy to the kind of design data Lead Balloon refers to.


Did you ask for it?
When did say i was a "government employed investigator"? I'm not now, never have been and wish never to become any kind if government employee, thank you very much. Moreover, I'm relishing my well earnt retirement from practice.

If you cared to look at the foregoing posts you would see that i told of being 'briefed' (profession clue) to conduct the Inquiry into the crash of Army Nomad A303, not to investigate the design criteria etc. of the aircraft type generally.

Regrettably, because there were no witnesses to the crash of A303 i and the investigation team chased down every report of Nomad 'misbehavior' that we were able to identify in the hope that those alleged 'incidents' might shed some light onto what happened to A303. [They didn't in the least.] In the course of that lengthy process, I was able to 'lead evidence' (another professional clue) that all of the reports of abnormal ops and the film of the stabilator shaking were all of them completely confected.

[Frustratingly, there almost were direct eye witnesses to A303's crash but the two other aircraft in the flight, who were holding over the paddock waiting their turn to use it after A303, turned away from it and A303 a split second before the crash sequence began!]

It was no part of the Board of Inquiry's stipulated task (as per its 'Terms of Reference', which i wrote) to examine and report upon the adequacy or otherwise of its design characteristics -- the Inquiry went long enough thank you without having to spend yet further months on a generalized postmortem of the type! That was simply not our task.

[That year was a particularly harrowing one: only weeks later i conducted an Inquiry into the crash of a Porter at Jasper's Brush (killing and maiming a number of troops) -- less than four years later i was again involved in an Inquiry into the crash of the two Blackhawks west of Townsville .. retirement is a great deal more pleasant!]

But your post raises another regrettable aspect: In theses times of increasing awareness of 'cyber bullying' it is immensely disappointing to see that some people have apparently not yet got the message. What's happened here is that the earlier posts have been ignored, certain individuals have made completely unfounded assumptions and "wild speculation" which has then developed into vulgar slurs and reprehensible bullying.

Lifting of game is called for dear boy ...
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 08:11
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GregP wrote: "Utter rubbish!!"


I thought 170 Nomad aircraft and two prototypes were built? What's your thoughts on that? Numbers please.


I quoted from the ABC '7-30 Report' from 27 Jul 04. That claimed that 19 aircraft had crashed with 56 deaths. So please give me your claimed figures.


I note that the original test pilot; Stuart Pearce was killed in Aug '76 along with the designer; D.Hooper at Avalon. That was in the crash of the prototype of the N24.
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 08:22
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If you cared to look at the foregoing posts you would see that i told of being 'briefed' (profession clue) to conduct the Inquiry into the crash of Army Nomad A303, not to investigate the design criteria etc. of the aircraft type generally.
In that event, is seems very strange that a supposedly independent professional, given the very narrow task you say you were given, would make the mistake of making these gross generalisations:
Almost everything negative written about the aircraft is utter dross. I ordered multiple tests of the aircraft and i flew one ... it was a seriously good aeroplane and had virtually no peer in its designed operational profile(s).
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 09:40
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The prototype crash was an experimental aircraft. The wrong flutter design criteria was used on the experimental tailplane modifications. I flew every version of the Nomad, N22 (Military) N22B, N22S (Searchmaster) N24 N24A and the N22(F) Floatplane and did a stint at flight test. Was a delight to fly and took it into conditions the military wouldn't dream of. Can't say I was ever concerned at structural or control issues but I still have back issues and an unhealthy disrespect for chip lights. Pity it was forced to be designed to a mil spec, They specified helicopter performance and it just had to have two engines didn't it?
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 14:26
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GregP,


OK. So you are perhaps a retired legal practitioner? That's fine with me. (It doesn't need to be such a big secret, after all.)


I refer to your comments about 'cyber bullying.' I believe that (in all fairness) I haven't bullied you at all. All I've asked of you is for some answers to what I consider to be quite reasonable questions.


Particularly as you had an input to the accident investigation into A18-303.


(And there's no reason for you to be condescending to me. I've treated you with respect.)


Just because we clearly share differences of opinion on the Nomad aircraft, shouldn't be a reason for you to hide behind alleged bullying.


I see that as being a rather weak, defensive cop out.


"Lifting of game is called for dear boy..."


Your arrogance is clearly obvious.
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 16:03
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I spent many a lonesome yet enjoyable hour in the old gonad (it didnt have enough to warrant 2 nuts). And the old girl is still going.
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 21:49
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Is that Nomad from Mahindra the one that was flown over "recently" from NZ?
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 00:13
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As an avid enthusiast of the "Flying Doctors" TV series in the 1980's can anyone give any background info. Like


1) Where it was filmed?


2) Was that Nomad MSF chartered and used specifically for all shots or did they use several Nomads?


3)Did they just have a series of external Nomad shots and use them when appropriate or did they film specifically for each episode?


4) Were the inside shots a simulator or was it filmed with a qualified pilot out of camera shot in the right hand seat and Sam Patterson appearing to be masterfully flying it?


5) At the end of the original first episode there was an F27 taking off supposedly with Tom's girlfriend returning to the USA but in fact she had not got on. Did Ansett still use F27's then?


(PS I wish our aircraft mechanics in the UK were as gorgeous as Rebecca Gibney
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 00:51
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draglift

It's my understanding that the Flying Doctors television series used two Nomads marked as VH-MSF.

c/n 69 the real RFDS aircraft VH-MSF which appeared in the flying sequences. This aircraft was flying until fairly recently but I note that it is no longer on the register.

c/n 01 the Nomad prototype VH-SUP which was painted as VH-MSF and used in ground sequences. This aircraft is now with the South Australian Aviation Museum.

In addition to these aircraft there is a "VH-MSF" mounted at the Broken Hill RFDS Base. This aircraft is believed to be c/n 33 formerly VH-RCC.

The last Ansett passenger F.27 flight was on 26JUL89.

I regret that I can't assist with your other questions other than confirming your assessment of Ms G.
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 01:11
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RFDS Nomad VH-MSF was flown by RFDS's Captain Clyde Thompson and Captain Don Campbell for some of the flying scenes for the TV show.

Some of the ground scenes for the show were shot at Point Cook, in Melbourne.

Lindsay Ingram a CAA FOI at YMMB had a role as an aviation advisor for the production crew.

Ansett NSW provided a daily F27 service to the Hill from Sydney, until Hazelton Airlines took over the service in a B1900, Embraer Bandeirante or Saab 340.
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 04:14
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Originally Posted by bilbert View Post
The prototype crash was an experimental aircraft. The wrong flutter design criteria was used on the experimental tailplane modifications. I flew every version of the Nomad, N22 (Military) N22B, N22S (Searchmaster) N24 N24A and the N22(F) Floatplane and did a stint at flight test. Was a delight to fly and took it into conditions the military wouldn't dream of. Can't say I was ever concerned at structural or control issues but I still have back issues and an unhealthy disrespect for chip lights. Pity it was forced to be designed to a mil spec, They specified helicopter performance and it just had to have two engines didn't it?
Finally, someone with extensive direct experience of the type ... in this veteran's view, clearly a good aircraft.
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 05:28
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Hi GregP

Could you confirm that you have no direct or indirect pecuniary or other interest in GippsAero or any entity related to GippsAero?
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