RPT Radio Calls into CTAF - Jet* Today at Ballina
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If you want your audience to understand your message, make sure you speak it in a language you know they will understand.
Works in all facets of life.
Simple really.
Works in all facets of life.
Simple really.
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A good one you hear often is "All traffic XXX, YYY an IFR important jobby is doing a sector three entry for a 27 NDB" or "YYY is in the 34 NDB holding patern", no other details given. This is normally on blue sky days, it's crap. Even IFR blokes without the relevent plate would'nt know where captain important is.
Wot's this 'at TIME two zero' stuff? How's about '(place) at two zero'.
Not that insertion of the extra word is all that important as long as the message is clear, but I suggest we all refrain from putting our own spin on what should be said and just go back to the AIP for guidance, bearing in mind that it is a guidance document and does not claim to cover every situation. When the situation warrants, use plain language in as few words as possible. One of the many of my pet R/T hates is 'climbing to Flight Levels'. Another is ' an IFR Boeing 737 jet'. In the first case, totally useless information - in the second, an excess of useless information. If told it's a Boeing or an A320 or whatever, surely that's enough to tell even farmer Brown in his little Cessna that it's big, it's fast, the crew probably isn't looking out the window, they think they are more important anyway, and whether he agrees or not about the importance bit, he needs to keep clear.
Not that insertion of the extra word is all that important as long as the message is clear, but I suggest we all refrain from putting our own spin on what should be said and just go back to the AIP for guidance, bearing in mind that it is a guidance document and does not claim to cover every situation. When the situation warrants, use plain language in as few words as possible. One of the many of my pet R/T hates is 'climbing to Flight Levels'. Another is ' an IFR Boeing 737 jet'. In the first case, totally useless information - in the second, an excess of useless information. If told it's a Boeing or an A320 or whatever, surely that's enough to tell even farmer Brown in his little Cessna that it's big, it's fast, the crew probably isn't looking out the window, they think they are more important anyway, and whether he agrees or not about the importance bit, he needs to keep clear.
A good one you hear often is "All traffic XXX, YYY an IFR important jobby is doing a sector three entry for a 27 NDB"
Has it been ascertained whether an earlier, perhaps 30nm call was made on CTAF that perhaps wasn't heard (it is a large and busy CTAF)?
Was the request for position clarification from an aircraft that clearly was not a conflict (eg in the circuit at Lismore)?
Last edited by grrowler; 30th Dec 2008 at 01:58.
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In the middle of my home office tidying exercise today I stumbled across some material that would have been sent to all pilots about 5 years ago.
I quote these words of wisdom to VFR pilots:
"VFR aircraft should avoid Aerodromes, Navaids, Instrument Approaches and Holding patterns".
VFR aircraft should avoid aerodromes? Now there's a novel approach!
"Assure that you are aware of the IFR Instrument and GPS approach paths and remain clear as far as you can .... charts are available on the Airservices Website".
So there you go! I guess that pretty much clears it all up, huh? The onus would appear to be on VFR pilots to keep the **** outta the way!
GG
I quote these words of wisdom to VFR pilots:
"VFR aircraft should avoid Aerodromes, Navaids, Instrument Approaches and Holding patterns".
VFR aircraft should avoid aerodromes? Now there's a novel approach!
"Assure that you are aware of the IFR Instrument and GPS approach paths and remain clear as far as you can .... charts are available on the Airservices Website".
So there you go! I guess that pretty much clears it all up, huh? The onus would appear to be on VFR pilots to keep the **** outta the way!
GG
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GG
Does this mean you only clear your desk every 5 Years. A clear desk is the sign of a sick mind
Good exercise going from CNS to MB, imagine the paperwork for aids/approaches and patterns. Mum would have to go by train, probably not a bad thing
. The weight of the paperwork would put me outside the envolope.
This morning at GLA 2240 local Dash inbound called Whisky Alpha/Bravo/ echo and every other letter of the alphabet with a final call for a 2 mile final.
To top it off a helo in the circuit then giving their positions abeam the whisky waypoints
Got to say the helo operator has just started. GLA is quite often used as a refuelling stop for all levels of operators, so wouldn't it be easier and safer to given positions relative to the Airport. As I've said before I know where the waypoints are, but possibly the 182 that dropped in just after, didn't
Frothy
Does this mean you only clear your desk every 5 Years. A clear desk is the sign of a sick mind
Good exercise going from CNS to MB, imagine the paperwork for aids/approaches and patterns. Mum would have to go by train, probably not a bad thing
. The weight of the paperwork would put me outside the envolope.This morning at GLA 2240 local Dash inbound called Whisky Alpha/Bravo/ echo and every other letter of the alphabet with a final call for a 2 mile final.
To top it off a helo in the circuit then giving their positions abeam the whisky waypoints
Got to say the helo operator has just started. GLA is quite often used as a refuelling stop for all levels of operators, so wouldn't it be easier and safer to given positions relative to the Airport. As I've said before I know where the waypoints are, but possibly the 182 that dropped in just after, didn't
Frothy
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Garygnu
"My question is do pilots have the discretion to carry out an RNAV GNSS approach at a non-towered aerodrome in VMC? One reading of the regs says no they do not."
Thats just one way to establish yourself on a 5 mile final.
Thats just one way to establish yourself on a 5 mile final.
GG the material you quote from was written by the same bloke who dreamt up the procedures. He had absolutely no idea about RPT operations. Its not surprising that there are many variations on the radio calls. If you are VFR and you hear an RPT jet give an inbound call via a GPS waypoint for a particular runway, just look for the landing lights on the approach path. My personal view is that all RPT traffic should approach any CTAF(R) for a straight in approach via a GPS approach point. This would allow for a 10 mile final, both pilots looking forward and the automatics can be used for longer.
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LL - the "look for landing lights" advice is not always helpful for quite a few reasons:
GG - "Assure that you are aware of the IFR Instrument and GPS approach paths and remain clear as far as you can .... charts are available on the Airservices Website". Not from the near future, I believe.... who are the idiots who "coordinate" the advice and educational materials?
- the GNSS RNAV APCH may have been started from one of the initial "dog leg" positions ofthe APCH and thus not "straight in" from the time of the call;
- the IFR ACFT (RPT in this discussion) may be descending through IMC into VMC below and thus not visible;
- the conflicting VFR ACFT may be below or to the side and thus not be able to see the landing lights;
- the rising/setting sun +/- haze may still be within limits to legally fly VFR but doesn't give great long distance viz.
GG - "Assure that you are aware of the IFR Instrument and GPS approach paths and remain clear as far as you can .... charts are available on the Airservices Website". Not from the near future, I believe.... who are the idiots who "coordinate" the advice and educational materials?
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Interesting how this debate is still going after several pages. It's obvious by the amount if interest that there is a problem or at the very least some concern about safety whilst arriving at a CTAF both under the VFR & the IFR. So far the best way around this that I can see is to be a little smarter when you fly into an unknown airport with all it's associated approach avenues. By that I mean employ that saying........"chance favours the prepared mind", be prepared.........Obviously arriving at a famil AD will usually mean you are aware of such IFR inbound routes but many basic VFR drivers get about on an irregular basis & so they should too, it's a free country & we can fly pretty much anywhere within, just that being a free country doesn't mean we (as in both VFR & IFR) can be complacent & hope the 'other' guy will stay out of yr way.
I see/hear some pretty professional VFR pvt pilots when I am out & about & some not so professional professionals too.
Wmk2
.I see/hear some pretty professional VFR pvt pilots when I am out & about & some not so professional professionals too.
Wmk2
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Whats that? No more RPT jets into uncontrolled aerodromes? Finally, are we catching up with the REST OF THE WORLD?
Surely Not! We already use worlds best practice.
Surely Not! We already use worlds best practice.
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I had the opportunity to tag along on some of the training flights that my instructor did with his CPL students.
He always stresses on keeping it simple so that the VFR pilots will understand his transmissions.
He always stresses on keeping it simple so that the VFR pilots will understand his transmissions.
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Quadrant and distance!
Everyone should know it, amazing how many don't.
I'm sick to death of flying into places and hearing locals broadcast "all stations abc just coming up on fred's creek." "yep jim I'm over malcom's homestead now"
Only to hear the IFR traffic have to clutter the frequency with "can you guys give me a quadrant and distance please?" (Usually followed by silence)
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Everyone should know it, amazing how many don't.
I'm sick to death of flying into places and hearing locals broadcast "all stations abc just coming up on fred's creek." "yep jim I'm over malcom's homestead now"
Only to hear the IFR traffic have to clutter the frequency with "can you guys give me a quadrant and distance please?" (Usually followed by silence)
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbzzzzzz
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Swannie
Thats just one way to establish yourself on a 5 mile final.
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Ok here's what a typical inbound call we use in our Co. to a CTAF & or R
XXX traffic XXX IFR B200 25 miles to the SW (sometimes via a radial if an omni is being used) passing 5500 ' manovering for a 5 mile final rwy 27, circuit 15, traffic XXX for Eg. That's if the App is in VMC if not then I add minimal info to enhance the above for the benifit of IFR pilot/s inbound although we ought to know about each other via ATC. Now I believe that's enough info at first for anyone else inbound that maybe coming from a SW or W direction, further mental picture forming can take place for all if there is a belief that a possible conflict exists. Yr eyes & yr ears are yr best defence. I'm not a huge fan of straight in Appr's but when it's of an urgent nature I weigh up the added risks on an individual basis & conduct one as I see fit.
Remember, nothing is ever that urgent in aviation & there are no dumb questions when it comes to aviation, this I have learnt over the years.
Wmk2
XXX traffic XXX IFR B200 25 miles to the SW (sometimes via a radial if an omni is being used) passing 5500 ' manovering for a 5 mile final rwy 27, circuit 15, traffic XXX for Eg. That's if the App is in VMC if not then I add minimal info to enhance the above for the benifit of IFR pilot/s inbound although we ought to know about each other via ATC. Now I believe that's enough info at first for anyone else inbound that maybe coming from a SW or W direction, further mental picture forming can take place for all if there is a belief that a possible conflict exists. Yr eyes & yr ears are yr best defence. I'm not a huge fan of straight in Appr's but when it's of an urgent nature I weigh up the added risks on an individual basis & conduct one as I see fit.
Remember, nothing is ever that urgent in aviation & there are no dumb questions when it comes to aviation, this I have learnt over the years.
Wmk2
