Demotivated....Ideas Please.
Grandpa Aerotart
Sunny the obvious option, if you want to keep flying, is ownership.
There are MANY ways that this can be accomplished affordably...build your own RV 7/7a/8/8a via one of the quick build kits available. Peruse the vans performance aircraft website below
Van's Aircraft - Total Performance RV Kitplanes
Alternatively peruse this website
BARNSTORMERS.COM
There are many affordable classic aircraft out there. A mate just bought a C195 in the states that is in as new condition after the previous owner (a 777 captain and A/P) rebuilt her ground up like I am doing to my Bonanza. The purchase price was under 100k.
There are plenty of restored Cessna 170s etc for way less than 50k.
Now is a good time to be buying in the states as many US pilots see there retirement funds go up in a puff of smoke.
NOTHING beats having your own aircraft to go where you want when you want for as long as you want.
There are MANY ways that this can be accomplished affordably...build your own RV 7/7a/8/8a via one of the quick build kits available. Peruse the vans performance aircraft website below
Van's Aircraft - Total Performance RV Kitplanes
Alternatively peruse this website
BARNSTORMERS.COM
There are many affordable classic aircraft out there. A mate just bought a C195 in the states that is in as new condition after the previous owner (a 777 captain and A/P) rebuilt her ground up like I am doing to my Bonanza. The purchase price was under 100k.
There are plenty of restored Cessna 170s etc for way less than 50k.
Now is a good time to be buying in the states as many US pilots see there retirement funds go up in a puff of smoke.
NOTHING beats having your own aircraft to go where you want when you want for as long as you want.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 22nd Dec 2008 at 17:44.
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Agree that ownership is the way to go and if you want to go when and where you want the only way.
I have a RAA J160 which (fairly) cheap to own and operate which is important for what is basically a personal toy. At the same time the range permits trips which are difficult/impossible for most GA eg BDV-Lake Eyre-WMC (no one around)- Painted Hills-Northern Flinders Ranges to PAG.
If you do go the RAA route suggest that you do the conversion in something like a Thruster/Drifter where you will sharpen your skills especially in the low inertia area rather than just notching up another 5 hrs in something similar to what you have already flown.
I have a RAA J160 which (fairly) cheap to own and operate which is important for what is basically a personal toy. At the same time the range permits trips which are difficult/impossible for most GA eg BDV-Lake Eyre-WMC (no one around)- Painted Hills-Northern Flinders Ranges to PAG.
If you do go the RAA route suggest that you do the conversion in something like a Thruster/Drifter where you will sharpen your skills especially in the low inertia area rather than just notching up another 5 hrs in something similar to what you have already flown.
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The hang gliding federation of Australia practically doubled the annual fees this year to about $400. That coupled with the constant whining about "marketing hang gliding to attract new members" in the magazine they send out (Soaring Australia) is almost enough to make me want to get out.
What is it with obscure sporting groups being obsessed with spreading the word on their hobby? The spearfishing club I was in was the same.
I started flying a couple of years ago and they don't do much with all that money that effects new pilots like me who just want to fly locally for fun.
Anyway, maybe these factors will drive others out of the sport and my local ridge will have less traffic this summer. That might make it worthy of staying in for me!
What is it with obscure sporting groups being obsessed with spreading the word on their hobby? The spearfishing club I was in was the same.
I started flying a couple of years ago and they don't do much with all that money that effects new pilots like me who just want to fly locally for fun.
Anyway, maybe these factors will drive others out of the sport and my local ridge will have less traffic this summer. That might make it worthy of staying in for me!
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Hi mate - I've flown with Royal Vic down in Melbourne, and Clambacks in Sydney. All are good places and I can't imagine you would have too much difficulty taking an aircraft for a few days from one of these?
Agree with the earlier "sausage factory" poster - some of the schools are very focused on churning out the foreign students - have you given Lilydale a go? Might be a better fit.
Whatever you do, do NOT get out of the saddle! Aviation needs YOU (and all the GA / rec flying bug-smashers out there!)
Agree with the earlier "sausage factory" poster - some of the schools are very focused on churning out the foreign students - have you given Lilydale a go? Might be a better fit.
Whatever you do, do NOT get out of the saddle! Aviation needs YOU (and all the GA / rec flying bug-smashers out there!)
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Whatever you do, do NOT get out of the saddle!
I was going to suggest aeros, but we seem to have covered that great idea.
What about an endo in something a bit sportier than you usually hook about in? Maybe a Baron or similiar? Combine it with a ME NVFR perhaps?
Also, I have to concur on the Lilydale idea or as an option followinga nice scenic drive, Latrobe Valley aero Club. I haven't been in that neck of the woods for years but they were always very friendly and welcoming when I used to regularly drop in on charters over the years. great fireplace on cold, windy winter days too!
More locally, Pearson at EN don't do the sausage factory thing either.
Good luck Sunny & let us know what you end up doing.
G'Day 'Sunfish',
Have enjoyed most of yr previous posts, and find myself almost in the same position.
I have a CPL, - got it in June '66 - which I haven't used in anger for some time recently, probably because of circumstances, and that I am 'retired' now, and find the 'local' flying club / school at JT a bit of a 'Gen Y' club.
So, some time ago I headed to Northam, about 1 and a bit hrs drive away,
because as soon as the wheels leave the runway - I am IN the Training Area!!
And, there are NO delays chewing up the VDO!
My next plan is to join the RAA and do some 'real' flying - which will probably be at the very same airfield where I used to instruct from as the 'only' country instructor in the area - some 40 years ago!!
(And on the walls of the 'old' schoolhouse which was my office / clubhouse in dem ole days....STILL hang the cut off ties and a 'slip' or two from my student's first solo s)
Yes, times and economics have changed......
But we are here to have FUN !
(We are here for a GOOD time - Not a LONG time...) N'est ce pas???
E N J O Y !!!
Have enjoyed most of yr previous posts, and find myself almost in the same position.
I have a CPL, - got it in June '66 - which I haven't used in anger for some time recently, probably because of circumstances, and that I am 'retired' now, and find the 'local' flying club / school at JT a bit of a 'Gen Y' club.
So, some time ago I headed to Northam, about 1 and a bit hrs drive away,
because as soon as the wheels leave the runway - I am IN the Training Area!!
And, there are NO delays chewing up the VDO!
My next plan is to join the RAA and do some 'real' flying - which will probably be at the very same airfield where I used to instruct from as the 'only' country instructor in the area - some 40 years ago!!
(And on the walls of the 'old' schoolhouse which was my office / clubhouse in dem ole days....STILL hang the cut off ties and a 'slip' or two from my student's first solo s)
Yes, times and economics have changed......
But we are here to have FUN !
(We are here for a GOOD time - Not a LONG time...) N'est ce pas???
E N J O Y !!!
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Sunfish take a holiday in QLD (gold coast area) and go see J. Chesterfield V.Salmon or in Bne A. Dunbar. These are the sorts of people that you are looking for. They've been there done that and each time you fly with them you learn so much. J. Eglen (RIP) was another one of these priceless people in the SE QLD area. Didn't know him from a bar of soap went flying with him and used the skills imparted for years to come - to top it off it was extreemly affordable.
Sunfish
I am a little like you and I read with interest the suggestions of some people that suggest building your own aircraft or buying a "classic". I have done both and all of this is ok as long as you dont have to ask how much it is going to cost. Owning your on aircraft is great and the cost for the average PPL will only work out to about $900-$1200 per hour flying time. I'm not kidding, you will have hangerage, if its a classic, you will have maintenance (not a problem for me ) and insurance. All of this is unavoidable and ongoing. You wont build an RV for less that $140,000. And after all this will you feel any different? Hmmmm dont know. Try the gliding ( been there and done that too ) or the RAA. As you can see I'm a bit jaded myself.
Grandpa Aerotart
Wow, cynical Arnold.
How would this cost $900-1200/hr to run?
CubCrafters: Aircraft for sale.
Yes there is insurance, maintenance and hangarage.
For an aircraft like the above that might total $8k/annum. 100 hrs/annum = $80/hr.
DOCs for a cub might be $60/hr.
So far we are up to $140/hr.
An aircraft like this will not depreciate significantly so forget that.
Missed opportunity costs?
Well if you'd invested that $50k a few years ago in the stock market, or even a house, what would it be worth now?
You'd be bloody lucky if it was still worth anything..it might be 25k had you bought blue chip stocks...it could VERY easily be a big fat zero.
Lets say you just shoved it in a term deposit at 5%...you'd still have lost out because (real) inflation would have eaten it away at probably 10%.
At some point you can sell the Cub and while it wont have appreciated much, and probably not even held it value compared to real inflation, it likely would have done as well or slightly better than sticking the money in a term deposit. Yes sticking into an investment property would (historically) have meant you might turn you 50k into 100k (Before CGT) after 10 years, it wont mean that in the next 10 years.
And in the end we are here on this planet for a good time not a long time...you could be run over by a bus tomorrow...a personal aeroplane, like a boat, sports car etc, gives a great deal of satisfaction that can not be accurately valued by just adding up $.
How would this cost $900-1200/hr to run?
CubCrafters: Aircraft for sale.
Yes there is insurance, maintenance and hangarage.
For an aircraft like the above that might total $8k/annum. 100 hrs/annum = $80/hr.
DOCs for a cub might be $60/hr.
So far we are up to $140/hr.
An aircraft like this will not depreciate significantly so forget that.
Missed opportunity costs?
Well if you'd invested that $50k a few years ago in the stock market, or even a house, what would it be worth now?
You'd be bloody lucky if it was still worth anything..it might be 25k had you bought blue chip stocks...it could VERY easily be a big fat zero.
Lets say you just shoved it in a term deposit at 5%...you'd still have lost out because (real) inflation would have eaten it away at probably 10%.
At some point you can sell the Cub and while it wont have appreciated much, and probably not even held it value compared to real inflation, it likely would have done as well or slightly better than sticking the money in a term deposit. Yes sticking into an investment property would (historically) have meant you might turn you 50k into 100k (Before CGT) after 10 years, it wont mean that in the next 10 years.
And in the end we are here on this planet for a good time not a long time...you could be run over by a bus tomorrow...a personal aeroplane, like a boat, sports car etc, gives a great deal of satisfaction that can not be accurately valued by just adding up $.
Yeah! it probably is a bit cynical, but you should look at the whole picture. As you have pointed out the fixed cost could be around $140/ hr, but dont forget fuel. You only get the cost of the aircraft back if you sell it so as long as you have it, you have to include its cost as a running cost. Also in the future it is increasingly likely that the resale value of aircraft will fall damatically assuming you would be able to sell at all. You are quite right about not being able to put a dollar cost on a "hobby or enjoyment" but by the same token its better, I think, that people relalize what they are letting themselves in for before rushing out and making a very expensive investment which will never have a positive monitary return. As you say though, you cant put a dollar figure on pride of ownership and enjoyment.
HeySunfish
Where did you end up? Lately reading through these threads I am getting more depressed than ever. I am like you, although I do have a CPL. The concensus of opinion, Here, would have it that there is no future in GA. Crikkey, I have just spent $180k building an RV7. Does anybody here have anything positive to say? Right now I would like to sell my RV( anybody like to buy it?) and do something else. I notice there are a few people that have suggested getting a boat and going fishing, maybe not a bad idea. I have recently bought a go-kart and started racing with my son,(yeah even old far#s can have fun) and it's fun! Please guys, get me motivated again!
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Wizofoz:
I recon doing 1000k in a open class glider on nothing but a couple of puffs of hot air pretty close (says me working on my B certificate 
)
Sunfish: head out to Bacchus Marsh - three gliding clubs that operate just about every weekend, and start your real flying! If you want to stick with the cast iron thermals, there is a powered school there as well, that seems fairly quiet on the weekends!
I don't know what you've done up until now, but the satisfaction of flying,mastering, and competing in something like a Pitts S1 is near the pinnacle of aviation experiences.
)Sunfish: head out to Bacchus Marsh - three gliding clubs that operate just about every weekend, and start your real flying! If you want to stick with the cast iron thermals, there is a powered school there as well, that seems fairly quiet on the weekends!
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Boats??
Little tinnies are ok, but if you want anything bigger, the advice I got was "stand under a cold shower and tear up fifty dollar bills. It's much the same, and it's cheaper"
If you go to any capital city you will be able to find millions of dollars worth of "yachts" tied up at expensive moorings, growing barnacles. Sometimes they go sailing.
In the capital cities many of the aeroplanes are the same. GA may be dying in the cities. Many were never viable, like the yachts. They got a big boost decades ago when our government gave huge tax concessions on aircraft purchases (probably to aid in oil search) so all the tax dodgers bought an aeroplane, and the salespeople organised a charter licence for them. Fortunes were made selling aeroplanes to fools, and teaching other fools to fly them. (yes I was one of the fools.) It got quite frantic but soon the mining fever died down and things slowed. The aircraft makers expected every Tom Dick and Harry to buy an aeroplane and they flooded the country with two seat trainers. But Tom, Dick and Harry did not buy and the industry slowed down. The factories slowed, and some stopped, blaming insurance costs.
So we have lots of under utilised aeroplanes that have been poorly maintained. Some have flown lots of hours. Some have not. Many are sound airframes that need a new engine and some TLC. Some need major work.
GA will never die completely because we live in a huge country with lots of still undiscovered minerals and poor transport. Smart people will want to go out there and look. It is also the only sensible way to provide essentiall services for those who live out there. Boeings can't do it.
If you go to any capital city you will be able to find millions of dollars worth of "yachts" tied up at expensive moorings, growing barnacles. Sometimes they go sailing.
In the capital cities many of the aeroplanes are the same. GA may be dying in the cities. Many were never viable, like the yachts. They got a big boost decades ago when our government gave huge tax concessions on aircraft purchases (probably to aid in oil search) so all the tax dodgers bought an aeroplane, and the salespeople organised a charter licence for them. Fortunes were made selling aeroplanes to fools, and teaching other fools to fly them. (yes I was one of the fools.) It got quite frantic but soon the mining fever died down and things slowed. The aircraft makers expected every Tom Dick and Harry to buy an aeroplane and they flooded the country with two seat trainers. But Tom, Dick and Harry did not buy and the industry slowed down. The factories slowed, and some stopped, blaming insurance costs.
So we have lots of under utilised aeroplanes that have been poorly maintained. Some have flown lots of hours. Some have not. Many are sound airframes that need a new engine and some TLC. Some need major work.
GA will never die completely because we live in a huge country with lots of still undiscovered minerals and poor transport. Smart people will want to go out there and look. It is also the only sensible way to provide essentiall services for those who live out there. Boeings can't do it.
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Mate....... Sell a half share of your RV7 to Sunfish.......share the fixed costs 50-50 and work out a variable costs charge per hour you are both happy with to cover everything else.
Then you will get better bang for your buck.
A nice -7 is a really cool plane to own!
J
Then you will get better bang for your buck.
A nice -7 is a really cool plane to own!
J
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Let's save them.
If you think that GA only consists of the city based flying school and some hobbyists looking for cheap flying(don't we all?), then yes GA is probably dying. The young pilots are getting smarter and communication is getting better, so the rumours of the numerous skygod jobs are no longer brining so many chequebooks to the flying schools. The flying schools have to change. Those with some sort of agreement with airlines will spend the money for a multi crew licence but many others will not.
The real value of GA is outback, like PNG, where other forms of transport are not so good. And that demand will be there for a long long time.
And there are some good airframes out there that will die if the present trend continues. It is now well proven that many aircraft survive for half a century if they are properly looked after. {look at our military).
Chuckles Bonanza will serve him well for many years, and will be as good as a new one when he finishes refittnig it. I applaud his efforts
I remember seeing a beautiful Cessna 340 a few years ago. It did not look nice at the time. It was covered with dust and bird****. It was about 30 years old and had flown 300 hours.
There is treasure out there. Some of those machines the "junior skygods" call ****boxes, are in fact quite valuable.
GA will not die in Australia. It will change a bit, but it will not die. It is too important.
The real value of GA is outback, like PNG, where other forms of transport are not so good. And that demand will be there for a long long time.
And there are some good airframes out there that will die if the present trend continues. It is now well proven that many aircraft survive for half a century if they are properly looked after. {look at our military).
Chuckles Bonanza will serve him well for many years, and will be as good as a new one when he finishes refittnig it. I applaud his efforts
I remember seeing a beautiful Cessna 340 a few years ago. It did not look nice at the time. It was covered with dust and bird****. It was about 30 years old and had flown 300 hours.
There is treasure out there. Some of those machines the "junior skygods" call ****boxes, are in fact quite valuable.
GA will not die in Australia. It will change a bit, but it will not die. It is too important.