Merged: Aircraft midair in Bankstown area

[omnidirectional wind]

ovation said

when I was exactly over the top and about to key my inbound call. After lots of head twisting looking for an aircraft at 2RN, it was really a twin about 2 miles to the S who called inbound early.

and then

Now if someone calls 2RN that's exactly where they should be

read the ERSA ovation, and i quote FAC S - 41 8.3(a)

...2RN (S of 2RN radio mast)

the reporting point is south of the mast as per the ERSA. if you were exactly overhead then the airmanship was poor on your part. The twin was south of 2RN to avoid people like you...

thanks for giving us an insight into your wonderful airmanship. BK tower separating aircraft by radar, wonder why BK is a GAAP not class C

[Robin Pilot]

I just had a look at a video on the Daily Terror website, which is from a tracker website.

It shows the liberty descending slightly as it approached the impact point - the Cessna was slightly climbing towards the point - then the Liberty basically sat on the Cessna. So definitely ads a bit of weight - in my unexperienced mind at least - to the earlier suggestion of a low vs high wing situation. Although what you can do about that I have no idea.

[LambOfGod]

Was the 89yo in the plane that landed safely?

rip.

[KRUSTY 34]

The 89 year old instructor in the A/C that landed safely was K.A. my sources inform me. Thankfully he and his student appear ok. Absolutely terrible when something like this happens.

"Fate is the Hunter"

[BPH63]

a high wing reporting point and a low wing reporting point or wot dick says

[Clearedtoreenter]

Seriously bad airmanship by the guy in the twin - he knew I was there and chose to make a deceptive call to get circuit entry instructions early. BK TWR was so busy I couldn't announce inbound until almost over the lake, and I was over-transmitted by another aircraft inbound from Prospect who became conflicting traffic for 11R, so I was given 11C.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one thing I will assume is that BK TWR is able to see local traffic on radar - there needs to be some thought given to whether they can give advisories to avoid the sad event that happened today.

Ovation, Not bad airmanship at all. You decribe a 'normal' situation at BK, and particularly 2RN. Its best to get in just before you get there, if you can, but often you just cannot until well past. Sometimes its downright scary when you can hear a Citation or an Kingair (or maybe even a Mooney) up your bum. Closing of HOX can only make this worse and more dangerous. Radar? Ha! From what I understand, yes, the coverage is all there but due to more superb Airservices Australia mismanagement, no-one in BK Tower is qualified/able/allowed to use it. Dick is right on those reporting points and its about time them and CASA listened. Both CN and BK urgently need revised congestion risk assessment, especially in the light of the HOX closure.

[DanArcher]

very sad news, sincere condolences to the familys, friends & loved ones,

I just wonder how much coincidence there is involved with the recent closure of YHOX and the extra traffic now at BK & CN.
What really SH&Ts me is that the goverment received millions for the sale of sydney basin airports & the useless pricks couldn't part with a little to give BK radar...... more than likely 2 lives could have been saved today

sometimes I forget this is the 'lucky country' seems more & more like the greed country every passing year

[telephonenumber]

See and avoid doesn't work. TCAS doesn't work. The only thing that works spearing into YSBK with a mess of high wing, low wing, fast and slow aircraft funneled over two points in space at the same altitude is luck. Going somewhere else also works. (And that will make BAL happy too.)

[telephonenumber]

Music to BAL's ears

I'll bet you that BAL has its PR people already working with this crash hoping to incite community action leading to the eventual closure of Bankstown. This will be done by the creation of objection groups within the community funded from WAY below the line by BAL - witness Essendon and Moorabbin. Be cynical, follow the dollar and you will find real estate development. And does the federal government care? Not a jot.

[Ovation]

Captain Mo wrote:

Ovation, you are not required, nor should you be exactly over the top. If you have a look at the ERSA for YSBK it decribes the reporting point to be the north eastern shore of Prospect or South of the TWRN radio mast. I have flown in and out of BK for years and the people who call over, north, 5 miles out, well past the mast, or at prospect over the middle of the reservoir, well to the west, the south, anywhere but the little quarry where if you look at your VTC the arrow points to. While this may have nothing to do with this accident, It never ceases to amaze me how many students (and believe me instructors) dont know the correct reporting points. It doesnt make a difference who calls first as sequencing instructions are given once you report at 3nm/warwick farm for 11, or downwind for 29, or given earlier to avoid confusion or conflict.

I too have flown in and out of YSBK for almost 30 yrs, and agree with everything you say. On a WATLE 4 arrival I was instructed by SY RADAR to "TRACK VIA 2RN" and given traffic advisories. My point is the pilot of the twin was NOT at 2RN when he said he was. Now had he called "INBOUND 2M S 2RN" there would be no confusion or anxiety.

Any time I fly over a VFR approach point with reporting delays due to other aircraft transmissions, I will qualify it with "APPROACHING" or "AT' or "JUST PAST", so other traffic know exactly where I am.

My latest ERSA is in the plane, but an out-of-date one says: "ARR ACT shall TR via, and REP at one of the FLW CTR APCH points <snip> and 2RN (S of 2RN radio mast)". How far S does that mean exactly? Does it give the distance S somewhere else?

Douche:

Pretty good for your first post - keep it up. Shot any messengers lately?

You're assuming the guy in the twin didn't understand the situation better than you. Most of them being IFR & dual COM chances are he would have had updates on your position on RADAR & be listening on BK TWR

I never assume anything. I know the difference between where he was and where he said he was was about 2 miles. BTW, Ovation was IFR with dual COM talking to SY RADAR (read above) and is as fast or faster than the twin in question.

Omndirectional wind wrote:

the reporting point is south of the mast as per the ERSA. if you were exactly overhead then the airmanship was poor on your part. The twin was south of 2RN to avoid people like you... thanks for giving us an insight into your wonderful airmanship. BK tower separating aircraft by radar, wonder why BK is a GAAP not class C

Sarcasm seems to be your strong point, and I'm guessing because you are unable to have a mature discussion. Unfortunately your post doesn't add to the debate about the safety of YSBK approach points where today, an Instructor and student both lost their life, and a very experienced pilot (ATO) was involved in the incident.

The TWR at YSBK will quickly tell you if you bust an altitude on departure, so they know who you are, where you are and where you're going - they'll even file an ESIR if they're in the wrong mood. Are you suggesting that aided with such modern tools, they should passively watch as two dots merge and one disappears, as indeed they did today?

[LambOfGod]

I saw on NBN news that the Liberty had a red mark from the Cessna. The marking was just behind the prop, anyone else see this?

[Lodown]

Like so many aviation accidents, this one is devastating and such a seemingly inexplicable, needless loss of life.

that nowhere in the USA do they have “reporting points” for general aviation aircraft to all track to (and no doubt collide) on the way in to a Class D or C airport.

Nowhere, anywhere, not even close in the USA do they have anything even faintly resembling the mess of Noise Abatement flightpaths that lie over the top of the entire Sydney area, including Bankstown, like an invisible colander filled with spaghetti either. It's combined with required, regular duty runway changes to spread the noise.

This arrangement for political expediency to "share the noise" necessitates VFR aircraft in the Sydney basin be treated like lepers; pushed out of controlled airspace and 'funnelled' to specific routes and altitudes in and out of Bankstown. It doesn't matter what airport in the USA it is, VFR pilots in the US aren't hamstrung by a convoluted mess of changing runways and rollercoaster lower level IFR flight paths for airline operations that almost entirely force VFR pilots into low level compressed "see and be hit" funnels with very few altitude options. Compare apples to apples Dick.

You want to fix the procedures in and out of Bankstown with the application of USA procedures? I don't have a problem with your efforts. But I can't see how changes at one location can be made without consideration for updating the noise abatement procedures in and out of Mascot to conform with USA practice first, so that Sydney VFR pilots have similar altitude and ATC options to those in the USA! I won't hold my breath.

[Uncle Festor]

A Sad Day

Once again another sad and tragic accident in GA. The use of two inbound points to Bankstown, lack of awareness of specific location of the report points as promulgated in ESRA combination of high wing versus low wing...who knows. I certainly dont doubt the abilities of K.A. and his age as the media are harping on about. Thoughts are with all those concerned.

[kimwestt]

Inbound to 2RN

Last Tuesday evening, around 1900 LMT, SY Radar was getting more than a little concerned - an inbound a/c to 2RN was catching another inbound to 2RN, with a closing speed of 60 kts(by radar). The rear a/c didn't seem concerned, could have changed altitude, or slowed down, but didn't. Radar controller ended up calling "traffic alert". There but for the grace of God went another incident. Viz was below average with mist and haze. Rear pilot VH-PG? didn't seem concerned then or later. What are pilots being taught these days? (I wasn't in either a/c)

[Chimbu chuckles]

Dick there is no way you can make the claim that your NAS would have negated this accident because it was just that...an accident. At least with inbound reporting points you have an idea where to look for other traffic..a bit like alerted see and avoid...if there were any number of 'acceptable' inbound tracks to a GAAP aerodrome you'd have no idea where other traffic might be or where to look.

That could easily lead to more separation breakdowns not less. Just like having completely anonymous GA aircraft sharing E airspace with RPT jets could, and in fact did, lead to separation breakdown there.

If something can happen it eventually will happen. Hence we have procedures in place like VFR reporting points and different classes of airspace to minimise the chances. Note I said minimise...you're no more likely to completely negate all accidents in the air than you're to regulate 100% road safety.

You're being your usual disingenuous self.

[Matt-YSBK]

avicon:
Perhaps we could use another frequency to make calls for the bk inbound/outbound lane and also approaching twrn and psp The Victor 1 frequency perhaps. A little like the old common frequency that was around pelican and warnervale.

[omnidirectional wind]

Another sad day, and an event that should not happen. My sympathies to all involved.

I had some anxious moments arriving over 2RN in the afternoon last September, when a twin reported 2RN inbound when I was exactly over the top and about to key my inbound call. After lots of head twisting looking for an aircraft at 2RN, it was really a twin about 2 miles to the S who called inbound early.

Now if someone calls 2RN that's exactly where they should be. It could be a fatal mistake to assume that the twin sighted to the S was the one calling over 2RN, because if it wasn't and there really was another twin at 2RN I could have ended my flying days in someone's backyard in Casula.

Seriously bad airmanship by the guy in the twin - he knew I was there and chose to make a deceptive call to get circuit entry instructions early. BK TWR was so busy I couldn't announce inbound until almost over the lake, and I was over-transmitted by another aircraft inbound from Prospect who became conflicting traffic for 11R, so I was given 11C.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one thing I will assume is that BK TWR is able to see local traffic on radar - there needs to be some thought given to whether they can give advisories to avoid the sad event that happened today.

how does this add to the debate about the safety of the approach points, other than you bagging the other twin for reporting south of the 2RN mast, where you are supposed to?

wouldn't reporting in the correct position give the tower the best opportunity to see you, given there is no radar separation?

you seem to be confusing the 2RN mast with the 2RN reporting point, they are in different places... just like prospect reservoir itself is not the prospect reporting point. you seem to want the exact location of the reporting point, check the VTC and the exact location is clearly marked some distance south of the mast.

oh and BTW, i'm sure the family is chuffed to receive your sympathies, i'm sure it makes all the difference to them - sarcastic enough for you?

and as a final piece of sarcasm you said

I never assume anything

and

but one thing I will assume is that BK TWR is able to see local traffic on radar

[flyinggit]

I know this area where this tragic event took place. Being new to this game I've looked up into the skies aroind 2RN & it's surrounding area a lot 'cause I can't help myself to see numerous planes in close proximity to each other. Am very saddened by this but not too surprised

Interesting to note that since this thread was posted there has been approx one posting per 6 mins, in around 8 hrs there has been around 80 posts, just goes to how how deep such a sad happening reaches far into the hearts of aviation enthusiasts.


Flyinggit

[Dj Dave]

Another way to help with traffic avoidance would be to, for example, have a requirement, within x miles BK and below 2000ft, to be AT 100kts for SE or 120kts for ME.

nothing worse than a fast twin closing in on a little 152.

[Dj Dave]

Avicon, edited my last. Not to say it but to have the req' just like jet arrivals so as to "self-sequence" and better traffic avoidance from xxmiles away BK