IFR in VMC
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If "simulated instrument time" under the hood doesn't count as instrument time in flight, then how do all those in locations with good weather get instrument ratings?
The regs state that we need "40 hours instrument time of which not less than 20 hours must be on the relevant aircraft category " and "10 hours dual instrument time" to be issued with a CIR. I know I would not have been able to get the 20 hours instrument time in flight without the use of the hood, due to Melbourne's absolutely *splendid* weather.
Whilst under the hood in flight, you are controlling the A/C by sole reference to instruments, hence why it can be logged as instrument time in flight. My test was on a near CAVOK day, so surely if the test counts as IF time, anything else under the hood does as well. Logging every minute of an IFR flight plan as instrument time is obviously very rare, but hey, that's what airmanship is for.
The regs state that we need "40 hours instrument time of which not less than 20 hours must be on the relevant aircraft category " and "10 hours dual instrument time" to be issued with a CIR. I know I would not have been able to get the 20 hours instrument time in flight without the use of the hood, due to Melbourne's absolutely *splendid* weather.
Whilst under the hood in flight, you are controlling the A/C by sole reference to instruments, hence why it can be logged as instrument time in flight. My test was on a near CAVOK day, so surely if the test counts as IF time, anything else under the hood does as well. Logging every minute of an IFR flight plan as instrument time is obviously very rare, but hey, that's what airmanship is for.
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Shimmer
Just confirm that your log book dosen't have separate columns for actual and simulated instrument time. I think the argument is in a do-loop due to different terminology. Instrument time can be broken down into actual and simulated. Actual=IMC, simulated=hood/visor etc. Therfore your 40 hours instrument time can be made up of actual and simulated. I know how much actual time i have logged and it is nothing compared to the simulated time. I have always known that you can only log actual if you are IMC.
Just confirm that your log book dosen't have separate columns for actual and simulated instrument time. I think the argument is in a do-loop due to different terminology. Instrument time can be broken down into actual and simulated. Actual=IMC, simulated=hood/visor etc. Therfore your 40 hours instrument time can be made up of actual and simulated. I know how much actual time i have logged and it is nothing compared to the simulated time. I have always known that you can only log actual if you are IMC.
Gundog01
I think if you have a closer look in your logbook again you will find instrument time is broken down into: Simulator, Approaches and Flight. I have five logbooks and not one has a column that is labelled “Simulated”. For the record all “IF” time in the aircraft whether it be actual IMC or simulated IMC under the hood goes into the “Instrument Flight” column. Synthetic trainer and simulator time goes into the “Instrument Simulator” column and the type of approach and number performed goes into the “Instrument Approach” column.
I think if you have a closer look in your logbook again you will find instrument time is broken down into: Simulator, Approaches and Flight. I have five logbooks and not one has a column that is labelled “Simulated”. For the record all “IF” time in the aircraft whether it be actual IMC or simulated IMC under the hood goes into the “Instrument Flight” column. Synthetic trainer and simulator time goes into the “Instrument Simulator” column and the type of approach and number performed goes into the “Instrument Approach” column.
'404' too true
Here's a point to ponder.
Yr conducting an app under the IFR SP no hood normal commercial job(NDB for Eg) You start the app in cloud, fair enough but 30 secs after you start say from over head the aid you re-enter VMC say outbound but can clearly see another cloud layer beneath you so obiously you continue the App again still in VMC looking outside 'cause it's easier keeping an eye on tracking/timing etc 'till entering IMC again. You finish the app or whatever but the point is do you log that whole app as IF ? You bet you do & there was no hood or second pilot to be seen!
Wmk2
Here's a point to ponder.
Yr conducting an app under the IFR SP no hood normal commercial job(NDB for Eg) You start the app in cloud, fair enough but 30 secs after you start say from over head the aid you re-enter VMC say outbound but can clearly see another cloud layer beneath you so obiously you continue the App again still in VMC looking outside 'cause it's easier keeping an eye on tracking/timing etc 'till entering IMC again. You finish the app or whatever but the point is do you log that whole app as IF ? You bet you do & there was no hood or second pilot to be seen!
Wmk2
I have a stop watch on the dash - whenever I go into IMC I start the stop watch and when I pop back into VMC I stop the stop watch. Keeps me pretty busy when I am flying through broken CU. After a 3 hour flight I take the accumulated time in IMC off the stop watch (ie 1 hr 3 min 25 sec) and write it up in my log book.
Isn't that what everybody does?
Sure it is!
Dr
Oh dear, has it really come to this? If we can't even get common agreement on how to log IF time, what hope is there of getting the important stuff right!
Isn't that what everybody does?
Sure it is!
Dr
Oh dear, has it really come to this? If we can't even get common agreement on how to log IF time, what hope is there of getting the important stuff right!
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 19th Dec 2008 at 11:00.
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Can someone tell me the definition of an "airborne radar approach". I was unable to find the defintion in AIP. This is mentioned in the Pilots Log Book - General Guidance, in the front of the CASA issued log book. For some unknown reason it says "instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilots in the case of an airborne radar approach" I have never heard of a specific ground borne radar approach though.
Maybe it means a surveillance radar approach where the ground borne radar operator talks you down. Or overseas maybe its a GCA or ground controlled approach where you are talked down too. But either way why should both pilots in a two crew aircraft be entitled to log the "airborne radar approach" when on a normal instrument approach such as NDB, VOR, ILS, DME arrival etc only one pilot can log the instrument approach?
Maybe it means a surveillance radar approach where the ground borne radar operator talks you down. Or overseas maybe its a GCA or ground controlled approach where you are talked down too. But either way why should both pilots in a two crew aircraft be entitled to log the "airborne radar approach" when on a normal instrument approach such as NDB, VOR, ILS, DME arrival etc only one pilot can log the instrument approach?
Sorry for the long post but this is what CASA wants you to do straight from their web site, even some of the CASA log books have reference in the front to AIC/rules which are out of date or incorrect.
Gundog - The red text is the area you may be interested in, all they care about is that it is instrument flight time and logged as such.
Logging of Flight Time
Flight time may be recorded in hours and decimals of hours, or hours and minutes. Pilots should record flight time accrued under the definition given above as follows:
Check Pilot/Approved Testing OfficerWhen not designated as pilot in command, flight time may be logged as co-pilot. In addition, the time may be recorded in the 'Specialist/Instructor' column as a record of check pilot experience.
Co-PilotIncludes all flight time as co-pilot or second officer. This flight time must not to be added to Grand Total Hours or Total Aeronautical Experience when ICUS is logged.
Dual FlyingDual time is recorded in the single or multi-engine dual column.
Flight Simulator or Synthetic Trainer TimePractice in an approved simulator or trainer may be recorded in the section provided at the rear of the log book. The instrument flight element of the simulator time may be transferred to the 'Ground' column of the Instrument Flight section of the flight record.
If a Flight Simulator or Synthetic Trainer Practice section is not available in the log book, the details may be entered chronologically in the flight record, and the Instrument flight element transferred to a suitably titled column.
In older log books, the 'Ground Training' or 'Simulator' column of the Instrument section of the flight record may be used for 'Ground' entries.
Grand Total Flying HoursGrand Total Flying Hours is calculated by adding all numbered columns in the flight record, plus ICUS, and recording the total at the bottom of the page.
In Command Under Supervision (ICUS)Includes all flight time when assigned as co-pilot acting in command under supervision as defined above:ICUS may be logged as follows:
a) in log books with single and multi-engine ICUS columns, the flight time is logged accordingly and is included in the Grand Total Hours;
b) if the log book does not have an ICUS column then ICUS may be logged in the Pilot in Command column as long as it is clearly identified as ICUS and the pilot in command is also identified;
c) alternatively, another unused column may be used to log ICUS.
Instrument ApproachesThe number and type of approaches may be recorded in the Instrument Approach column as a record of recent experience. If such a column is not available in the log book, the number and type of approaches may be recorded in the Remarks/Route, or another suitably retitled unused column.
Instrument TimeInstrument time is recorded in the Instrument column as either 'Flight' or 'Ground'.
Instrument Flight TimeAll flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.
Instrument Ground TimeVisual and instrument flight conducted in an approved flight simulator or synthetic trainer may be recorded in the appropriate section at the rear of the log book. The instrument element of a flight conducted in a simulator or synthetic flight trainer may be transferred to the 'Ground', 'Ground Training' or 'Simulator' column in the Instrument section of the flight record.
Mutual Instructor FlyingInvolves two pilots who are qualified on type, flying together for mutual practice on a flying instructor course. One designated pilot may log time in command and the other student instructor may log time as co-pilot. This flight time may be included in the Grand Total Hours.
Pilot In CommandIncludes all flight time while designated as pilot in command.
Route/Remarks/DetailsRecord all points of take-off and landing, nature of the flight (eg, mustering, aerobatics, scenic, etc) and, if required for recency, the number of landings.
Specialist/Instructor ColumnThe specialist column may be used for recording appropriate specialist activities; eg, glider towing, agricultural, check pilot, basic or navigation instruction. The activity involved should be clearly identified for each log book entry. This time is not to be included in the Grand Total Hours.
Summary of ExperienceThis section at the rear of the log book is available for use as required for type, periodical, seasonal or other summaries.
Total Aeronautical ExperienceTotal aeronautical experience is calculated by adding the totals of flight times recorded in each column but in such a way that that any flight time is not included more than once in the grand total hours.
Note also that only 50% of the time logged as a co-pilot may be included in the total.
Gundog - The red text is the area you may be interested in, all they care about is that it is instrument flight time and logged as such.
Logging of Flight Time
Flight time may be recorded in hours and decimals of hours, or hours and minutes. Pilots should record flight time accrued under the definition given above as follows:
Check Pilot/Approved Testing OfficerWhen not designated as pilot in command, flight time may be logged as co-pilot. In addition, the time may be recorded in the 'Specialist/Instructor' column as a record of check pilot experience.
Co-PilotIncludes all flight time as co-pilot or second officer. This flight time must not to be added to Grand Total Hours or Total Aeronautical Experience when ICUS is logged.
Dual FlyingDual time is recorded in the single or multi-engine dual column.
Flight Simulator or Synthetic Trainer TimePractice in an approved simulator or trainer may be recorded in the section provided at the rear of the log book. The instrument flight element of the simulator time may be transferred to the 'Ground' column of the Instrument Flight section of the flight record.
If a Flight Simulator or Synthetic Trainer Practice section is not available in the log book, the details may be entered chronologically in the flight record, and the Instrument flight element transferred to a suitably titled column.
In older log books, the 'Ground Training' or 'Simulator' column of the Instrument section of the flight record may be used for 'Ground' entries.
Grand Total Flying HoursGrand Total Flying Hours is calculated by adding all numbered columns in the flight record, plus ICUS, and recording the total at the bottom of the page.
In Command Under Supervision (ICUS)Includes all flight time when assigned as co-pilot acting in command under supervision as defined above:ICUS may be logged as follows:
a) in log books with single and multi-engine ICUS columns, the flight time is logged accordingly and is included in the Grand Total Hours;
b) if the log book does not have an ICUS column then ICUS may be logged in the Pilot in Command column as long as it is clearly identified as ICUS and the pilot in command is also identified;
c) alternatively, another unused column may be used to log ICUS.
Instrument ApproachesThe number and type of approaches may be recorded in the Instrument Approach column as a record of recent experience. If such a column is not available in the log book, the number and type of approaches may be recorded in the Remarks/Route, or another suitably retitled unused column.
Instrument TimeInstrument time is recorded in the Instrument column as either 'Flight' or 'Ground'.
Instrument Flight TimeAll flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.
Instrument Ground TimeVisual and instrument flight conducted in an approved flight simulator or synthetic trainer may be recorded in the appropriate section at the rear of the log book. The instrument element of a flight conducted in a simulator or synthetic flight trainer may be transferred to the 'Ground', 'Ground Training' or 'Simulator' column in the Instrument section of the flight record.
Mutual Instructor FlyingInvolves two pilots who are qualified on type, flying together for mutual practice on a flying instructor course. One designated pilot may log time in command and the other student instructor may log time as co-pilot. This flight time may be included in the Grand Total Hours.
Pilot In CommandIncludes all flight time while designated as pilot in command.
Route/Remarks/DetailsRecord all points of take-off and landing, nature of the flight (eg, mustering, aerobatics, scenic, etc) and, if required for recency, the number of landings.
Specialist/Instructor ColumnThe specialist column may be used for recording appropriate specialist activities; eg, glider towing, agricultural, check pilot, basic or navigation instruction. The activity involved should be clearly identified for each log book entry. This time is not to be included in the Grand Total Hours.
Summary of ExperienceThis section at the rear of the log book is available for use as required for type, periodical, seasonal or other summaries.
Total Aeronautical ExperienceTotal aeronautical experience is calculated by adding the totals of flight times recorded in each column but in such a way that that any flight time is not included more than once in the grand total hours.
Note also that only 50% of the time logged as a co-pilot may be included in the total.
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I think you will find that Gundog may have a military logbook.....
Thats always gonna create some differences....damn civvies. I guess in the wash up it is all instrument time just logged differently.
43
I see where you're coming from but in the very next line (C) it says.
A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
Wasn't long ago when a Virgin Blue captain realised he was out of currency and after landing instructed his first officer who was completing the legal paperwork on the ground, to "put me down for two hours instrument flying"
It does not state actual or simulated IMC, so simulated IMC would be accepted. If it stated flight in actual IMC only may be logged then it would be a contradiction.
framer - VFR pilots may navigate totally without reference to the ground if using radio navigation as well. The difference is an IFR pilot may operate below VMC, that is in IMC conditions, and fly only by aircraft instrument reference for flight path guidance.
I have found that it is very important for EFIS, autopilot equiped pilots to be vigilant with maintaining IFR scan currency. It is easy to get complacent whilst everything is working properly and you just have to watch the FMS/autoflight do the job. The most likely time you may loose your primary flight displays is at night in IMC after a lightning strike or surge due high power demand.
There have actually been a number of large aircraft accidents caused by flight crew disorientation at night/IMC when proper scanning and understanding of the aircraft displays would have averted the disaster, this includes A320 and 737 types. To say that currency does not matter just because they fly every day is complete rubbish.
framer - VFR pilots may navigate totally without reference to the ground if using radio navigation as well. The difference is an IFR pilot may operate below VMC, that is in IMC conditions, and fly only by aircraft instrument reference for flight path guidance.
I have found that it is very important for EFIS, autopilot equiped pilots to be vigilant with maintaining IFR scan currency. It is easy to get complacent whilst everything is working properly and you just have to watch the FMS/autoflight do the job. The most likely time you may loose your primary flight displays is at night in IMC after a lightning strike or surge due high power demand.
There have actually been a number of large aircraft accidents caused by flight crew disorientation at night/IMC when proper scanning and understanding of the aircraft displays would have averted the disaster, this includes A320 and 737 types. To say that currency does not matter just because they fly every day is complete rubbish.
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43inches, you obviously don't fly a 737!
3-4 times a year we get a 'lightning strike', at night in bad weather... then do a non precision approach, have a missed approach, lose an engine, do an engine out ILS, go around, catch fire, do an engine out night visual circuit on fire and land.
Whether the flight is all in the clear, or all in the gloop, we reference the instruments the exact same amount. I imagine that since an airliner instrument scan is totally independant from the weather (except for the two extremes of low visibility operations, or visual approaches), some pilots treat IF time arbitarily.
3-4 times a year we get a 'lightning strike', at night in bad weather... then do a non precision approach, have a missed approach, lose an engine, do an engine out ILS, go around, catch fire, do an engine out night visual circuit on fire and land.
Whether the flight is all in the clear, or all in the gloop, we reference the instruments the exact same amount. I imagine that since an airliner instrument scan is totally independant from the weather (except for the two extremes of low visibility operations, or visual approaches), some pilots treat IF time arbitarily.
Instrument Flight Time:All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column
Dr
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:)
Thanks guys for all the inputs, i didn't expect it to start such a fuss, but I learned a lot of things through your posts.
Just to sum it up for my situation and i hope I have understood the rules: I am allowed to fly instrument approaches in VMC without a safety pilot, in order to satisfy my IFR approach recency requirements. However it is common sense to take a safety pilot even in VMC so I can concentrate on the approach. Also, i can fly under the hood in VMC for 3 hours every 90 days while taking a safety pilot to satisfy the IFR flight recency requirements.
Thank you for your times again.
Just to sum it up for my situation and i hope I have understood the rules: I am allowed to fly instrument approaches in VMC without a safety pilot, in order to satisfy my IFR approach recency requirements. However it is common sense to take a safety pilot even in VMC so I can concentrate on the approach. Also, i can fly under the hood in VMC for 3 hours every 90 days while taking a safety pilot to satisfy the IFR flight recency requirements.
Thank you for your times again.
framer - VFR pilots may navigate totally without reference to the ground if using radio navigation as well. The difference is an IFR pilot may operate below VMC, that is in IMC conditions, and fly only by aircraft instrument reference for flight path guidance.
To say that currency does not matter just because they fly every day is complete rubbish.
There have actually been a number of large aircraft accidents caused by flight crew disorientation at night/IMC when proper scanning and understanding of the aircraft displays would have averted the disaster, this includes A320 and 737 types
Lancer, I do not fly a 737, but struggle to understand how it is vastly different to any other aircraft of its size. They are flown by the numbers as you say in all operations, but if this was sufficient then why do they still come to grief in CFIT accidents? The largest cause is loss of situational awareness in a high workload environment, mostly in a perfectly serviceable aircraft, the overall flight path of the aircraft is misinterpreted. In some cases the loss of currency may not manifest itself in direct flight path deviation but some other area neglected as a result of the pilots focus on control.
I assume you refer to sim exercises which whilst is very good training, the crew are usually aware and well prepared for rather than just sprung at random when your fatigued at the worst possible time. Do you have to study for a sim or do you just turn up and pass because you've kept up to date during the 3-6 months between them? A lot is still left to the individual to ensure they maintain a constant state of readiness for the unusual in the interim period. If your a little rusty on the controls it only makes dealing with a problem that little bit harder.
Simulator training/checking is all part of currency and helps to make pilots subject to it safer overall. Emrgency procedure training/crew briefs/planning and basic hands on flying skill all add to safety. When mentioning currency earlier I was not just refering to the CASA minimums.
Just had to add that I agree that Aus does have good training/support & procedures for airline pilots, however we are also in an area with mild weather conditions and low terrain compared to Europe/Asia/Nth & Sth America.
I assume you refer to sim exercises which whilst is very good training, the crew are usually aware and well prepared for rather than just sprung at random when your fatigued at the worst possible time. Do you have to study for a sim or do you just turn up and pass because you've kept up to date during the 3-6 months between them? A lot is still left to the individual to ensure they maintain a constant state of readiness for the unusual in the interim period. If your a little rusty on the controls it only makes dealing with a problem that little bit harder.
Simulator training/checking is all part of currency and helps to make pilots subject to it safer overall. Emrgency procedure training/crew briefs/planning and basic hands on flying skill all add to safety. When mentioning currency earlier I was not just refering to the CASA minimums.
Just had to add that I agree that Aus does have good training/support & procedures for airline pilots, however we are also in an area with mild weather conditions and low terrain compared to Europe/Asia/Nth & Sth America.
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Depending on who's paying...
Hey Tom,
The only thing I would add to your last post is that if instead of flying three hours as PIC you may want to only do one hour of Dual or ICUS (if you are working for a company willing to assign you as ICUS). Additionaly, if ICUS, Dual or PIC (with safety pilot) there's no requirement for the other pilot to have an Instrument Rating (think about all those fresh-faced non-rated instructors getting a CPL students 10 hours up).
Have fun,
FRQ CB
The only thing I would add to your last post is that if instead of flying three hours as PIC you may want to only do one hour of Dual or ICUS (if you are working for a company willing to assign you as ICUS). Additionaly, if ICUS, Dual or PIC (with safety pilot) there's no requirement for the other pilot to have an Instrument Rating (think about all those fresh-faced non-rated instructors getting a CPL students 10 hours up).
Have fun,
FRQ CB
43Inches, do you actually fly the a/c differently depending on whether you're VMC or IMC? I understand your need to stay current if that is the case.
About the only difference I can think of above 10,000ft, is that if I'm VMC and get TCAS traffic I'll actually look for it. Apart from that, and the occasional longing look at a surf break, there's no difference to me.
About the only difference I can think of above 10,000ft, is that if I'm VMC and get TCAS traffic I'll actually look for it. Apart from that, and the occasional longing look at a surf break, there's no difference to me.
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Hi FRQ CB, thanks for the additional points. Just one thing to clarify, when you say dual or ICUS, does that mean i just need to fly with a classmatef for 1 hour every 90 days to get current on my IFR?
Cheers.
Tom
Cheers.
Tom