Merged: Willy ATCO's get 4 weeks holiday, meanwhile CAGRO At Newcastle saves the day!
Gundog, thanks.
By the way, anyone who thinks I risk defamation action for claiming that CASA has prepared a fake safety case for Williamtown need have no fear.
I just feel sorry for the good people at CASA who have been led down this path.
Possibly something similar happened at the Wheat Board - and in that case it was not human lives at risk.
By the way, anyone who thinks I risk defamation action for claiming that CASA has prepared a fake safety case for Williamtown need have no fear.
I just feel sorry for the good people at CASA who have been led down this path.
Possibly something similar happened at the Wheat Board - and in that case it was not human lives at risk.
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Why not have some civilians at Willy, they do at Nowra (there were moves to put some at Richmond?)
There are alot of controllers who would be more than happy to leave ASA live around Nelsons Bay, Tea Gardens, Hawks Nest (heaven) and go on contract at Willy and provide a service outside of Willies core hours. This would allow flexibilty for the RAAF, we could even become reservists.
Where do I sign.
There are alot of controllers who would be more than happy to leave ASA live around Nelsons Bay, Tea Gardens, Hawks Nest (heaven) and go on contract at Willy and provide a service outside of Willies core hours. This would allow flexibilty for the RAAF, we could even become reservists.
Where do I sign.
I believe there are a couple of reasons why there are no civilian (APS) ATCOs employed at Willy:
- it's typically not a difficult base to staff, despite the fact that it been fairly consistently in the public eye lately, the ATCOs are the meat in a couple of political sandwiches and the fact that you know you'll work hard there (and struggle to get leave), given the staffing levels. I'm pretty sure plenty of people want to go there, as the traffic is generally pretty good and, as you suggest max, Newcastle/Port Stephens is a nice place to live.
- Willy, along with a few of the others, is seen as an important base to develop RAAF ATCOs. The base is kept in blue to retain the experience gained for deployments. Look at the operational deployments that have been undertaken as far back as Somalia to see why.
As you well know max, there aren't enough controllers within AsA or RAAF to go around. The 20 or more RAAFies that have transitioned to AsA this year haven't helped. There are political ramifications associated with adjusting ATS at the joint user bases. RAAF is committed to providing ATS at Oakey and Nowra in support of Army and Navy, respectively. There are capability arguments for continuing to provide services at other bases (eg pilot training at Pearce). Rather than saying, 'Righto (for instance) Amberley, you get no ATS for a couple of years while we redeploy these ATCOs to where they're really needed.', RAAF seems to prefer to trim the very thin layer of fat across all the bases.
The reason that Willy ATCOs appear to only be there for local fast jet ops is largely a staffing issue, I believe. It has been worse in the past when they couldn't even cover what the locals wanted, it's just that Newcastle Airport is supporting more than B1900s and Jetstream 31s now. For El Perro's benefit, it's not RAAF ATCOs who decide that they're there for local jets only. The direction that gets you so tired and emotional comes from a higher level. They probably could have chosen to reduce the intensity of local mil flying and spread ATS over a longer period, however, the local (aircrew) hierarchy clearly didn't go for it.
The APS ATCOs employed by Defence are there for core ATC hours. The job ad in the APS Gazette is looking for ATCOs in order to transition Richmond, East Sale, Edinburgh and Nowra to a wholly APS workforce. I assume those bases were chosen because of the dot points above ie those bases are not a popular posting choice and the RAAF gets better bang for it's buck from a development perspective at the other bases. I guess any surplus blue shirts gained would be posted to Darwin/Townsville/Willy/Pearce etc.
Notwithstanding the legal issues that have been touched on, contract controllers for OOH and weekend work sounds like a great job for a semi-retired controller. Pity I'm too young have a go at it...
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For the record:
Williamtown is not a training base. It is the primary Operational Fighter base for the RAAF. 'Operational ElPerro' must've missed that nugget of info while he was single-handed taking out 35 Taliban from his o'seas post.
There weren't 'school holidays' for the RAAF Fighter boys in 02... (I know this because my bearcat scanner was going ballistic with their comm!) And I imagine that they won't be taking leave whenever their services might be needed in the future.
Elperro, in my books you're up there with mostlytossas. He says in one spread that WLM ATC can resign for all he cares (and taunts them about their inevitable unemployment), then waxes lyrical about how to boost ATC recruitment to fill the obvious shortage of manpower in that role.
Stop embarrassing yourself with comments about the cost of a hornet vs a civvy jet, clearly that is not the issue, and clearly you know very little about Williamtown.
The biggest safety issue at willytown occurs when someone gets his knickers in a knot for being held for 3 minutes at Nobby's, then goes on to rant and rave over the control freq, drowning out any communications from the aircraft that ATC are trying to separate him from. (Demonstrating to us all the true fundamentals of aviation professionalism and airmanship eh Dick!)
The issue is that CASA dropped the ball, ASA are undermanned and that the poor bastards at WLM have picked it up for them.
Instead, why don't you raise a glass the guys and girls who found out 1 day before they planned to go on leave that they needed to cancel flights home, holiday accommodation etc and break it to the missus/hubby/kids that they would be going nowhere other than work for the next 4 weeks.... Merry Christmas!
If you hear WLM ATC whinge about being deployed to the desert, then tell them to 'harden up', 'you're in the military', 'look at me...I'm soooo operational blah, blah' etc. But when it's to cover for beaurocratic failings, let them vent.
Williamtown is not a training base. It is the primary Operational Fighter base for the RAAF. 'Operational ElPerro' must've missed that nugget of info while he was single-handed taking out 35 Taliban from his o'seas post.
There weren't 'school holidays' for the RAAF Fighter boys in 02... (I know this because my bearcat scanner was going ballistic with their comm!) And I imagine that they won't be taking leave whenever their services might be needed in the future.
Elperro, in my books you're up there with mostlytossas. He says in one spread that WLM ATC can resign for all he cares (and taunts them about their inevitable unemployment), then waxes lyrical about how to boost ATC recruitment to fill the obvious shortage of manpower in that role.
Stop embarrassing yourself with comments about the cost of a hornet vs a civvy jet, clearly that is not the issue, and clearly you know very little about Williamtown.
The biggest safety issue at willytown occurs when someone gets his knickers in a knot for being held for 3 minutes at Nobby's, then goes on to rant and rave over the control freq, drowning out any communications from the aircraft that ATC are trying to separate him from. (Demonstrating to us all the true fundamentals of aviation professionalism and airmanship eh Dick!)
The issue is that CASA dropped the ball, ASA are undermanned and that the poor bastards at WLM have picked it up for them.
Instead, why don't you raise a glass the guys and girls who found out 1 day before they planned to go on leave that they needed to cancel flights home, holiday accommodation etc and break it to the missus/hubby/kids that they would be going nowhere other than work for the next 4 weeks.... Merry Christmas!
If you hear WLM ATC whinge about being deployed to the desert, then tell them to 'harden up', 'you're in the military', 'look at me...I'm soooo operational blah, blah' etc. But when it's to cover for beaurocratic failings, let them vent.
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Civi's in the TWR
Defence realised that having all defence ATC units staffed with uniformed ATC is no longer viable (because they keep leaving) and a decision was made to civilianise some TWRS (not contract) and leave uniforms at others.
The reason used for the Southern Bases (RIC,NWA,ESL,EDN) to go all APS was based on traffic types and density, which then leaves the other bases for uniformed ATC, plus OAK mixed with uniforms and APS. That way uniformed staff get exposure to the traffic and ops that they will encounter when deployed. Simple as that.
Yes, you could have APS in the TWR at Willy (spots would be filled in a heartbeat) but that option was not taken. As Willy is an operational base as well as training, it was decided that it would stay all blue.
Dick,thanks for the reply. If you took that approach more often I think more would support you.
The reason used for the Southern Bases (RIC,NWA,ESL,EDN) to go all APS was based on traffic types and density, which then leaves the other bases for uniformed ATC, plus OAK mixed with uniforms and APS. That way uniformed staff get exposure to the traffic and ops that they will encounter when deployed. Simple as that.
Yes, you could have APS in the TWR at Willy (spots would be filled in a heartbeat) but that option was not taken. As Willy is an operational base as well as training, it was decided that it would stay all blue.
Dick,thanks for the reply. If you took that approach more often I think more would support you.
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There weren't 'school holidays' for the RAAF Fighter boys in 02... (I know this because my bearcat scanner was going ballistic
Farm em out to other bases and leave Williamtown for ASA controllers. If the blue suited controllers want to control jets they can take a posting to Tindal.
I'd call Balad or Tarin Kowt an operational base. Williamtown is a training base.
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Elperro,
I'm curious. What do you do, or what have you done in life, that allows you to form such an expert opinion about the role of RAAF Williamtown ?
Williamtown is a training base.
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Not bait mate, just fact.
Tell me the last move at YWLM related to an Operation in the last 50 years, and I'll bet you that it wasn't a Williamtown based aircraft? You may be able to site one or two in the last fifty years - but they don't justify the extra cost of having RAAF pers manning ATC.
It's a "Raise, Train, Sustain" base. Nothing to do with operations.
I believe the ATC services should be handed over to ASA. As previously mentioned, YWLM won't man outside standard published hours for actual moves related to Operations, so why the need for blue suiters? Hand it over (after all RAAF ATC are so short), move the guys to other bases so that they can man for operational moves such as those performed by the AP-3C's.
ASA are far more flexible and willing to provide a service at short notice for non-scheduled moves. They'll just bill you for it. RAAF ATC just say "No". Hand it over to ASA on a contract until the RAAF gets it numbers back up. It's not like the RAAF needs to man YWLM because they have a bunch of controllers that need to be "Deployable" on short notice.
At least the actual moves related to Operations would be services by ASA as opposed to the RAAF controllers.
Dick Smith,
I'm yet to hear a compelling reason why RAAF pers have to run the tower there. Perhaps responsibility should be transferred to ASA. For out of hours moves ASA appears flexible enough to man for a payment.
To quote the immortal "Beavis and Butthead" - "Dude, if you have to ask, you'll never know." To answer "we need deployable guys" is not relevant at all when the RAAF is so short of controllers. The requirement for the current CE of controllers is not Williamtown specific.
You should answer my questions about why Blue Suiters have to perform the tower / ground job at YWLM rather than question the basis of my knowledge.
You don't utilise any of the classified systems in tower - so there is no need for a defence member to man it. You guys are notorious defence wide (in the aircrew community outside ACG for providing a completely non - existent service for non locally based aircraft. You made your bed - Dick Smith has pointed out the bed you have made - time to lie in it.
How many times have you guys declared MBZ / CTAF whilst a non ACG aircraft is taxiing? You provide nothing to Defence other than clearing the RTS YWLM based aircraft to land.
Tell me the last move at YWLM related to an Operation in the last 50 years, and I'll bet you that it wasn't a Williamtown based aircraft? You may be able to site one or two in the last fifty years - but they don't justify the extra cost of having RAAF pers manning ATC.
It's a "Raise, Train, Sustain" base. Nothing to do with operations.
I believe the ATC services should be handed over to ASA. As previously mentioned, YWLM won't man outside standard published hours for actual moves related to Operations, so why the need for blue suiters? Hand it over (after all RAAF ATC are so short), move the guys to other bases so that they can man for operational moves such as those performed by the AP-3C's.
ASA are far more flexible and willing to provide a service at short notice for non-scheduled moves. They'll just bill you for it. RAAF ATC just say "No". Hand it over to ASA on a contract until the RAAF gets it numbers back up. It's not like the RAAF needs to man YWLM because they have a bunch of controllers that need to be "Deployable" on short notice.
At least the actual moves related to Operations would be services by ASA as opposed to the RAAF controllers.
Dick Smith,
I'm yet to hear a compelling reason why RAAF pers have to run the tower there. Perhaps responsibility should be transferred to ASA. For out of hours moves ASA appears flexible enough to man for a payment.
Originally Posted by C-Change
I'm curious. What do you do, or what have you done in life, that allows you to form such an expert opinion about the role of RAAF Williamtown ?
You should answer my questions about why Blue Suiters have to perform the tower / ground job at YWLM rather than question the basis of my knowledge.
You don't utilise any of the classified systems in tower - so there is no need for a defence member to man it. You guys are notorious defence wide (in the aircrew community outside ACG for providing a completely non - existent service for non locally based aircraft. You made your bed - Dick Smith has pointed out the bed you have made - time to lie in it.
How many times have you guys declared MBZ / CTAF whilst a non ACG aircraft is taxiing? You provide nothing to Defence other than clearing the RTS YWLM based aircraft to land.
Last edited by ElPerro; 21st Dec 2008 at 08:26.
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How about this from Mr.Rudd? "I order you lot to stay the f#$k open!!!!"
Just who does the military work for again? Talk about a freakin' gravy train!!!
Man Willy before it rains metal.........
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zz
Just who does the military work for again? Talk about a freakin' gravy train!!!
Man Willy before it rains metal.........
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zz
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Buzzy,
When they don't have the people they can't man. The solution is to hand it to ASA and move the RAAF controllers to other bases. It would assist the other RAAF bases that are not fully manned.
I'm yet to hear a specific reason why RAAF members have to man at YWLM. Sure you need to keep a certain number of controllers current for deployment purposes, but when you don't have those numbers what exactly is the reason for RAAF members to man tower?
When they don't have the people they can't man. The solution is to hand it to ASA and move the RAAF controllers to other bases. It would assist the other RAAF bases that are not fully manned.
I'm yet to hear a specific reason why RAAF members have to man at YWLM. Sure you need to keep a certain number of controllers current for deployment purposes, but when you don't have those numbers what exactly is the reason for RAAF members to man tower?
Thread Starter
Hey 'El P',....
Your quote,
"ASA are far more flexible and willing to provide a service at short notice for non-scheduled moves. They'll just bill you for it"........
I Don't Think So.......
Not this week I think - nor next week, nor the week after....ad infinitum...
Try perusing the thread re ATC STAFF SHORTAGE.
(This ain't gunna work...??)
Your quote,
"ASA are far more flexible and willing to provide a service at short notice for non-scheduled moves. They'll just bill you for it"........
I Don't Think So.......
Not this week I think - nor next week, nor the week after....ad infinitum...
Try perusing the thread re ATC STAFF SHORTAGE.
(This ain't gunna work...??)
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I wouldn't exactly say that ASA are flushed with extra controllers either.
Somebody needs to put their fat performance bonus aside for a moment and start spending some money!
Passenger loads into that beautiful part of the country are soaring so why shouldn't it be serviced by a safe airport?
tic tic tic tic...........
Somebody needs to put their fat performance bonus aside for a moment and start spending some money!
Passenger loads into that beautiful part of the country are soaring so why shouldn't it be serviced by a safe airport?
tic tic tic tic...........
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Elperro,
I have answered this several times. You can put who ever you like in Willy TWR. I'm only quoting the same reason that was passed to me by management (SRG). Put AsA in there, put APS in there, maybe even Serco, I don't care who does the job personally but that is the reason we have been given. You also seem to have not noticed that AsA have enough staff dramas as it is. They can't man what they currently have. Where are they going to come from, the magic ATC hat ?
Don't forget one critical fact, RAAF are cheaper than Asa. That counts more than ever when Defence need to save 10 billion over 10 years.
Why do you think the Southern Bases stayed APS. Because its cheaper. AsA charge a fortune for the service, have a look at Pea. It ain't cheap.
Were you aware that RAAF ATC also controlled at Balad ?
As far questioning the basis of your knowledge, lots out there have opinions on things that they know very little about. Wasn't after a dot point summary, just wondering if you had ever been to the place.
Actually I didn't make the bed mate, others created the situation we are now in. I like many others out there turn up each day and do my job. I'm not in charge of Oz ATC. Maybe if some of the other FEGS had supported us over the years instead of bitching, we would be in a better state these days.
Are you also saying that when I complete a 9 hour shift for the local units that I then must stay for your arrival, then for the next one and so on. That little bit extra here and there soon adds up. You've landed but then the next one turns up and before you know it an hour has rolled by and then I'm violating rules. Good one. Just like you, I have to do as I'm told. Give us the staff and the means to keep them for a while and we will stay for FLIP hours.
You could also try saying thanks to those that stay and put up with the bull**** !!!!
You should answer my questions about why Blue Suiters have to perform the tower / ground job at YWLM rather than question the basis of my knowledge.
Don't forget one critical fact, RAAF are cheaper than Asa. That counts more than ever when Defence need to save 10 billion over 10 years.
Why do you think the Southern Bases stayed APS. Because its cheaper. AsA charge a fortune for the service, have a look at Pea. It ain't cheap.
I'd call Balad or Tarin Kowt an operational base.
As far questioning the basis of your knowledge, lots out there have opinions on things that they know very little about. Wasn't after a dot point summary, just wondering if you had ever been to the place.
You made your bed - Dick Smith has pointed out the bed you have made - time to lie in it.
Are you also saying that when I complete a 9 hour shift for the local units that I then must stay for your arrival, then for the next one and so on. That little bit extra here and there soon adds up. You've landed but then the next one turns up and before you know it an hour has rolled by and then I'm violating rules. Good one. Just like you, I have to do as I'm told. Give us the staff and the means to keep them for a while and we will stay for FLIP hours.
You could also try saying thanks to those that stay and put up with the bull**** !!!!
Last edited by C-change; 21st Dec 2008 at 09:42. Reason: Spelling error
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You can put who ever you like in Willy TWR.
Don't forget one critical fact, RAAF are cheaper than Asa
Were you aware that RAAF ATC also controlled at Balad ?
I like many others out there turn up each day and do my job. I'm not in charge of Oz ATC.
Maybe if some of the other FEGS had supported us over the years instead of bitching, we would be in a better state these days.
re you also saying that when I complete a 9 hour shift for the local units that I then must stay for your arrival, then for the next one and so on. That little bit extra here and there soon adds up
You could also try saying thanks to those that stay and put up with the bull**** !!!!
As I asked: When was the last time you specifically change the FLIP hours for an operational move? You accommodate the operational move when it fits in with the local training flights.
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ElPerrow,
You're a wind-up merchant whether you know it or not.
$220K+ for a SMC or TWR rated kid at WLM... you're smoking crack.
Last OPS out of WLM... 'if you have to ask, you'll never know'.
Why would you have RAAF vs ASA ATC out of WLM.... 'if you have to ask, you'll never know'.
You need to look up the definition of 'fact'. Eg. Chuck Norris can lead a horse to water AND make it drink..... FACT!
You're a wind-up merchant whether you know it or not.
$220K+ for a SMC or TWR rated kid at WLM... you're smoking crack.
Last OPS out of WLM... 'if you have to ask, you'll never know'.
Why would you have RAAF vs ASA ATC out of WLM.... 'if you have to ask, you'll never know'.
You need to look up the definition of 'fact'. Eg. Chuck Norris can lead a horse to water AND make it drink..... FACT!
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Like most snap decisions by people who think they know everything and actually know very little there are many other considerations why AsA cannot and should not take over ADF ATC. To do Balad as a flyer or as ATC you have to do WLM or OAK etc and if you have to ask why you do not know. To do WLM and other bases there are 'situational' security and OH&S considerations that prevent AsA from doing the job. To do WLM as a joint user base there are specilised knowledge requirements that fall outside of AsA ATC practice and again - if you have to ask you surely do not know. The risk managmeent process for ADF is quite different to AsA (sometimes you have to accept higher risk in ADF [obviously])) for operational purposes. To make changes that try to implement AsA ATC into ADF bases without considering all the facts is why Project Genesis, after all of those attempts and years, failed. Snap decision making isn't quite the vogue of the ADF unlike just about every other area of Oz Aviaton. I doubt that ADF flying would want ADF ATC to be too closeley associated with the mess that AsA has become. Easy to go there and difficult to come back.
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To do Balad as a flyer or as ATC you have to do WLM or OAK etc and if you have to ask why you do not know.
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It's a "Raise, Train, Sustain" base. Nothing to do with operations.
Ah ..........so now I understand your confusion.
"Raise, Train, Sustain" is everything to do with operations.
"Raise, Train, Sustain" is everything to do with operations.