Where have all the jobs gone?
J3.... how can we not generalise when if we say Harry, Tom & Bill at XYZ Aviation all failed to be upgraded and are now back on the line.....
Tiddles and Tail Wheel would have a pink fit of naming names and more than likely I would be sin binned...... not likely sunshine.
Well, surprisingly enough this is exactly what happened this week at my mob, 3 guys of various nationalities and capabilities all got told that sorry mate you dont cut the mustard and back to the right seat for you.
There is one thing in common among all three - generation.
empacher48 makes a very good point and I faced the same thing. At 28 I found myself the Chief Pilot of a RPT operator with multi turbines, by 29 I realised that if I did not actively look for another position I would be in the job until I karked it, like the "Crusty old C*^@$" that are still there.
I went back o/s and have gone onto much bigger and better things, while I have mates at QF, DJ & J* they dont regret their moves but most of them are bored senseless and realise that they have golden handcuffs.
Plenty of these fellas did the hard yards, and some did it tougher than others, but when we get together and sink a couple, or chat more often than than not the APPARENT attitude of the younger crew members appears to be holding back their career progression.
These particular crew members are also the ones that have "generally" gained a licence straight out of school, generally done a quick stint in the bush or around the circuit at Bankstown and found themselves in the right seat of a regional for a year or so and next they passed selection to a big boy.
This is not wishy washy hearsay this is fact.
These guys and gals will be the ones that when they do get their command they will do it for 10 years and realise that the grass in not greener, and left seat for a 320 is as good as it gets without dropping to the bottom of someone elses seniority list...... then they retire from the industry at 45 finally realising that it may not have been really what they wanted.
If you are lucky enough like me to be some one who has turned their passion into their job then every day that you are doing what you want and not getting a train to an office, looking at the 4 walls of a cubicle waiting for 4:59:59........... then you are the luckiest guy alive.
Tiddles and Tail Wheel would have a pink fit of naming names and more than likely I would be sin binned...... not likely sunshine.
Well, surprisingly enough this is exactly what happened this week at my mob, 3 guys of various nationalities and capabilities all got told that sorry mate you dont cut the mustard and back to the right seat for you.
There is one thing in common among all three - generation.
empacher48 makes a very good point and I faced the same thing. At 28 I found myself the Chief Pilot of a RPT operator with multi turbines, by 29 I realised that if I did not actively look for another position I would be in the job until I karked it, like the "Crusty old C*^@$" that are still there.
I went back o/s and have gone onto much bigger and better things, while I have mates at QF, DJ & J* they dont regret their moves but most of them are bored senseless and realise that they have golden handcuffs.
Plenty of these fellas did the hard yards, and some did it tougher than others, but when we get together and sink a couple, or chat more often than than not the APPARENT attitude of the younger crew members appears to be holding back their career progression.
These particular crew members are also the ones that have "generally" gained a licence straight out of school, generally done a quick stint in the bush or around the circuit at Bankstown and found themselves in the right seat of a regional for a year or so and next they passed selection to a big boy.
This is not wishy washy hearsay this is fact.
These guys and gals will be the ones that when they do get their command they will do it for 10 years and realise that the grass in not greener, and left seat for a 320 is as good as it gets without dropping to the bottom of someone elses seniority list...... then they retire from the industry at 45 finally realising that it may not have been really what they wanted.
If you are lucky enough like me to be some one who has turned their passion into their job then every day that you are doing what you want and not getting a train to an office, looking at the 4 walls of a cubicle waiting for 4:59:59........... then you are the luckiest guy alive.
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I guess I fit in the Gen Y category, and while I don't like to generalise, I must say I am disappointed at times by the attitudes of some of some younger people in Aviation - I suppose for the same reason I loathe sms abbreviations so much. But that's the way of the world, and airlines are realising they need to adapt and cater for generational differences.
Pill, you must be joking about Kiwi pilots stealing Aussie jobs. Plenty of your boys over here, we're happy to have them, and I've enjoyed flying with many of them.
By the way, I think the original post has been taken out of context (apart from Florider's misguided comment about instructing). I wish her well with her endevours, as I remember how much of an uphill battle it can seem like at her stage of the game.
Pill, you must be joking about Kiwi pilots stealing Aussie jobs. Plenty of your boys over here, we're happy to have them, and I've enjoyed flying with many of them.
By the way, I think the original post has been taken out of context (apart from Florider's misguided comment about instructing). I wish her well with her endevours, as I remember how much of an uphill battle it can seem like at her stage of the game.
Last edited by Cloud Cutter; 7th Dec 2008 at 01:07.
TWOTBAGS
I do not have any doubt in my mind that there are numerous de-identified examples that you and your mates could provide me with, that wasn't my point. My point being that we're not all like that and your assumptions that we are is a little off putting. If you simply think that most young pilots you've encountered are like that therefore all must be, then you have a rather slanted view of reality. I am sure this is not the case though...
j3
I do not have any doubt in my mind that there are numerous de-identified examples that you and your mates could provide me with, that wasn't my point. My point being that we're not all like that and your assumptions that we are is a little off putting. If you simply think that most young pilots you've encountered are like that therefore all must be, then you have a rather slanted view of reality. I am sure this is not the case though...
j3
J3 we appear to be on the same page of the same book, but your is in English and mine is in American……. In other words very close but different.
A mate of mine saw this thread and rang me up says, yeah bags I agree, but I have to tell you this….
We commented upon the “fantastic fo phenomena” and recanted something he witnessed a few weeks back quite by chance that a few of the fantastics were talking about their own performance and basically had their own coming to Jesus.
However later when among other crew, they reverted to all piss and vinegar mode with a liberal scattering of non smelling sh!t.
The conversation left me with mixed feelings that it was good to know that some of these fellas have the sense to know that age and experience is no match for BS and bravado and that they may have areas where they can improve. However it saddened me that there was so much of a face issue that these individuals are so keen for what they see as the prize that it clouds their thought process.
Thankfully I am just a line schwein so I have no hand in culling the herd, but is it a Gen Y thing, that humility and biding ones time are such a distasteful tonic.
Are some that egotistical….. if so it is scary. Most of them have their Breitling etc, while half of us have Citizens or Casio’s. Maybe there is something to the “Big Clock = Small Cock” that the hosties giggle about!
Not meaning to pull punches just hopefully giving and insight to how many of the younger generation are viewed by their coworkers.
A mate of mine saw this thread and rang me up says, yeah bags I agree, but I have to tell you this….
We commented upon the “fantastic fo phenomena” and recanted something he witnessed a few weeks back quite by chance that a few of the fantastics were talking about their own performance and basically had their own coming to Jesus.
However later when among other crew, they reverted to all piss and vinegar mode with a liberal scattering of non smelling sh!t.
The conversation left me with mixed feelings that it was good to know that some of these fellas have the sense to know that age and experience is no match for BS and bravado and that they may have areas where they can improve. However it saddened me that there was so much of a face issue that these individuals are so keen for what they see as the prize that it clouds their thought process.
Thankfully I am just a line schwein so I have no hand in culling the herd, but is it a Gen Y thing, that humility and biding ones time are such a distasteful tonic.
Are some that egotistical….. if so it is scary. Most of them have their Breitling etc, while half of us have Citizens or Casio’s. Maybe there is something to the “Big Clock = Small Cock” that the hosties giggle about!
Not meaning to pull punches just hopefully giving and insight to how many of the younger generation are viewed by their coworkers.
If you think the gen Y's are bad, we aint seen nothing yet. Just round the corner are the Gen Z's. A type exemplified by the infamous party boy Cory Worthington. And it seems the girls are worse, asky anyone who works in a capital city shopping centre.
If it's anthing like most of my flying mates, then I'm pretty sure we're on the same page there and in the same language.
There were these kind of aviators about in previous generations too(I have met several
), however I think that the ratio has increased rather dramatically in Y.
The reason I get frustrated when the generalisations start flying is on a number of occassions, flying with older crew I have simply been classified as a 'young pr1ck what the f*ck would he know, they never listen and they think they know everything'.
So the next time a young guy or girl steps into the flight deck, leave the stereotyping until they ask you how long to command during their F/O line training. Then fire away as they deserve it! You may find some of us are quasi-human
And I can't mention on this forum the things I would like to do to that oxygen thief Corey and those of his ilk, but it involves pliers, teeth, and fingernails
Love the watch reference. Can't say I am a member of the Brietling club, the pulsar club, thats another matter!
j3
There were these kind of aviators about in previous generations too(I have met several
), however I think that the ratio has increased rather dramatically in Y.The reason I get frustrated when the generalisations start flying is on a number of occassions, flying with older crew I have simply been classified as a 'young pr1ck what the f*ck would he know, they never listen and they think they know everything'.
So the next time a young guy or girl steps into the flight deck, leave the stereotyping until they ask you how long to command during their F/O line training. Then fire away as they deserve it! You may find some of us are quasi-human
And I can't mention on this forum the things I would like to do to that oxygen thief Corey and those of his ilk, but it involves pliers, teeth, and fingernails
Love the watch reference. Can't say I am a member of the Brietling club, the pulsar club, thats another matter!
j3
I agree with everyone else on the forum that 440 hours is just out of school.
Can I just suggest that we don't go back to the GA I saw in the 90's and 2000's with the attitude like the one above of you've only got 400 hours that's nothing.... I flew a single for 2500 hours before flying a baron etc etc...
GA and flying in general should not be treated like it's a moonshot. It ain't that difficult overall and we should not be so focused on hours but on ability. I'm Gen X did the usual GA story and agree that Gen Y need a kick in the pants from time to time HOWEVER operators have had to start paying people properly, progression is throughout the industry and the whole hours dick measuring thing has gone out the window, if you're competent you're in. So lets take on some of the good things that have changed in Australia instead of trying to make GA the industry what it was 20 years ago where everyone just got screwed over.
Just to keep things in perspective in Europe with 440 hours this guy would be a FO on a jet so lets not start the whole thing of that isn't enough hours to wash my car BS.....please
Neville.
That comment was never suggesting that I would like things to go back to the way they were. What I was doing was agreeing with the sentiment from previous posters that 440hours is not enough hours to be looking for a second job. It was later revealed that Florider had to leave the job due to personal family reasons.
Should we be going back to they way it was (ie 2500 hours in a single before a twin) I sincerely hope not, however, in addition I would not like the situation to accelerate to the point where it is common place to do 200 hours in one job before moving on, or to be put on a high performance piston twin straight out of flying school, I think that would (and has recently) create unneccessary risk.
j3
That comment was never suggesting that I would like things to go back to the way they were. What I was doing was agreeing with the sentiment from previous posters that 440hours is not enough hours to be looking for a second job. It was later revealed that Florider had to leave the job due to personal family reasons.
Should we be going back to they way it was (ie 2500 hours in a single before a twin) I sincerely hope not, however, in addition I would not like the situation to accelerate to the point where it is common place to do 200 hours in one job before moving on, or to be put on a high performance piston twin straight out of flying school, I think that would (and has recently) create unneccessary risk.
j3
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Get over it!!
See this is what really pisses me off the bitter and twisted geeza's out there, who still believe that because they had it "tough" that therefore everyone else should follow suite with there ten milion hrs and three moon landings. Who gives a rats really you make your own luck in this game everyone knows that. The fact is aviation has changed over the past few years with the introduction of low cost carriers etc people can now fly for next to nothing and therefore the 5-10 year apprenticeship is just not needed any longer as demand for pilots went exponential. However I do agree with having sufficient stick time, bush time whatever you want to call it as it sets good foundations for maturity, life experience & future flying but as for stereotyping the Gen Ys before they have even step foot into the cockpit is just pathetic in my opinion, give them a chance as some may just turn out to be normal people without that chip on their shoulder. So to all the bitter geeza's out there either take it on the chin or retire early. Simple, just my two cents worth
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????
GA used to be a reasonable way to make a living and the pay was about the same as a teacher got. Endorsements were paid for by the company.
Then came a flood of wannabies who worked for nothing, paid for icus and endorsements and very soon stuffed everything up.
How can we respect them??
Then came a flood of wannabies who worked for nothing, paid for icus and endorsements and very soon stuffed everything up.
How can we respect them??
GA used to be a reasonable way to make a living and the pay was about the same as a teacher got. Endorsements were paid for by the company.
Then came a flood of wannabies who worked for nothing, paid for icus and endorsements and very soon stuffed everything up.
How can we respect them??
Then came a flood of wannabies who worked for nothing, paid for icus and endorsements and very soon stuffed everything up.
How can we respect them??
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Are you kidding??
Neville
Do you really think $50,000 is alot of money for flying an aeroplane in the outback? (I paid $70,000 over two years ago. Three of my ex pilots are now earning much more than that in GA and they want to stay in GA)
Do you really think it is a serious shortage of pilots if operators actually advertise job vacancies just like they do in all other jobs? i think it is normal business, and the way it should be.
I never sat down and sent out unsolicited resumes. People offered me jobs. I never worked free or cheap Sure it wasn't easy. What is?
Sure the bludging airlines recruited some of the pilots from GA instead of trainig their own and now, for a short time things are getting a bit more sensible. That is slowing down now. It may pick up again after a year or two.
There are very good safety (for GA) and IR reasons why airlines should train their own pilots, and the multi crew licence may help with this. GA needs a stable and well paid workforce to be safe and reliable. Under the present system that will never happen.
.
Do you really think $50,000 is alot of money for flying an aeroplane in the outback? (I paid $70,000 over two years ago. Three of my ex pilots are now earning much more than that in GA and they want to stay in GA)
Do you really think it is a serious shortage of pilots if operators actually advertise job vacancies just like they do in all other jobs? i think it is normal business, and the way it should be.
I never sat down and sent out unsolicited resumes. People offered me jobs. I never worked free or cheap Sure it wasn't easy. What is?
Sure the bludging airlines recruited some of the pilots from GA instead of trainig their own and now, for a short time things are getting a bit more sensible. That is slowing down now. It may pick up again after a year or two.
There are very good safety (for GA) and IR reasons why airlines should train their own pilots, and the multi crew licence may help with this. GA needs a stable and well paid workforce to be safe and reliable. Under the present system that will never happen.
.
Inspiration (Hopefully)
Until GA purchase some newer equipment and charge it's clients what doing business truly costs, then the lowest bidder will always win.
How many GA operators have a 5 year paint/interior plan and factor that into their quotations, or how many just flog them and pay the bare minimum to keep them going under schedule 5?
How many GA operators have a 5 year paint/interior plan and factor that into their quotations, or how many just flog them and pay the bare minimum to keep them going under schedule 5?
