Where do you go after a failed CPL exam appeal to CASA?
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For all those out there that have yet to get over how soft I am. Take another look at the title of the thread "WHERE DO YOU GO AFTER A FAILED CPL EXAM APPEAL TO CASA?"
I didn't ask where to go to cry about a failed exam, I didn't ask where to go for personal advice and I didn't ask where to go to listen to some old git rave about how hard life was when he was a budding pilot.
Good on you guys for coming out and slinging a bit of mud. Makes for a good laugh when reading this. Now that Bluesky300 has posted on here I think I might be on to something. Pretty sure he'll be able to offer some advice in this area!
Yeah it might upset the boys at CASA if I keep fighting this but I think it's a matter of principle. I'd rather give my hard earned money to a lawyer to fight for what is right than give it to ASL/CASA.
TID EDIT
Appreciate the advice Nipper. Just means that when you sit down for an exam do you look in to the details of the law or do you just go with the "key words" read the first paragraph and ignore the rest of the requirements?! Not having a go at you Nipper I just think they should be as particular in an exam as they would be in the real world.
I didn't ask where to go to cry about a failed exam, I didn't ask where to go for personal advice and I didn't ask where to go to listen to some old git rave about how hard life was when he was a budding pilot.
Good on you guys for coming out and slinging a bit of mud. Makes for a good laugh when reading this. Now that Bluesky300 has posted on here I think I might be on to something. Pretty sure he'll be able to offer some advice in this area!
Yeah it might upset the boys at CASA if I keep fighting this but I think it's a matter of principle. I'd rather give my hard earned money to a lawyer to fight for what is right than give it to ASL/CASA.
TID EDIT
Appreciate the advice Nipper. Just means that when you sit down for an exam do you look in to the details of the law or do you just go with the "key words" read the first paragraph and ignore the rest of the requirements?! Not having a go at you Nipper I just think they should be as particular in an exam as they would be in the real world.
Last edited by Integro; 18th Dec 2008 at 02:15.
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Dogmatic types abound in flying.
Integro is just another one in the making.
Me! I've seen the odd anomally in the exact science of aviation. Funnily enough I think the rules worldwide and from their inception have been drafted with this in mind.
CASA though, well they breed dogmatic types so integro will probably have a win.
Me! I wouldn't give money to lawyers.
Integro is just another one in the making.
Me! I've seen the odd anomally in the exact science of aviation. Funnily enough I think the rules worldwide and from their inception have been drafted with this in mind.
CASA though, well they breed dogmatic types so integro will probably have a win.
Me! I wouldn't give money to lawyers.
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I'm pretty sure I got this question on my PPL theory exam. I too was torn between the two options, as both were reasonably valid but incomplete answers. I picked one, and don't remember whether I got it marked right or not. There was another dodgy question about what is the most likely personal defect to render a pilot incapacitated. If I had read that question out in a game of Trivial Pursuit (tm) I'd have said, "Nup, crap question..." and chucked the card on the fire.
The point being, if this one question was on the knife edge of whether you passed or not then there were clearly plenty of other questions in the test that you were not properly prepared for. Learn your stuff and it wouldn't be a problem.
You failed the test, well rise above it and do it again.
The point being, if this one question was on the knife edge of whether you passed or not then there were clearly plenty of other questions in the test that you were not properly prepared for. Learn your stuff and it wouldn't be a problem.
You failed the test, well rise above it and do it again.
Hey Integro,
Sorry to hear about it. I had a similar situation in the CPL AGK exam. I found that in all honesty if I had my time over I just would have accepted CASA's bullsh1t answer and try again.
Believe it or not, I actually had two different officers in the Flight Crew Licensing division fighting with one another as to the wording and correct answers. Now if they can't agree amongst themsleves, what hope do they have of agreeing with you...
What I did was get exceedingly blind drunk after the exam and started over. I got it the second time around, and the ambiguous questions were still there, I just knew which answers they wanted to hear.
IMHO, the majority of the CASA exams lack any kind of industry relevance and are simply a hoop jumping exercise.
Good Luck with the re-sit Integro,
j3
Sorry to hear about it. I had a similar situation in the CPL AGK exam. I found that in all honesty if I had my time over I just would have accepted CASA's bullsh1t answer and try again.
Believe it or not, I actually had two different officers in the Flight Crew Licensing division fighting with one another as to the wording and correct answers. Now if they can't agree amongst themsleves, what hope do they have of agreeing with you...
What I did was get exceedingly blind drunk after the exam and started over. I got it the second time around, and the ambiguous questions were still there, I just knew which answers they wanted to hear.
IMHO, the majority of the CASA exams lack any kind of industry relevance and are simply a hoop jumping exercise.
Good Luck with the re-sit Integro,
j3
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Gee thee are some cruel people in here, I wonder what brings out that mean streak when someone is involved in aviation? My father said you would think that we where part of the painters & dockers union where thuggery was rife. I know there are mean spirited people in all walks of life even in my church believe it or not but it's as if someone has burnt an Aussie flag (something that's looked upon as an insult especially in the states) just because he wants to seek some answers, right or wrong.
So far I've not failed any exams but at 'integro's expense I think it would be wise for myself who's 'green' not to say too much in these pages about how to go about anything!
Harden the f#%#% ? that's disgusting & to think that there are some professional pilots here!
Flyinggit
So far I've not failed any exams but at 'integro's expense I think it would be wise for myself who's 'green' not to say too much in these pages about how to go about anything!
Harden the f#%#% ? that's disgusting & to think that there are some professional pilots here!
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I'm too embarrassed to mention the number of times I attempted the CPL Air Law exam. The worst thing about my result was the fact that I missed out by one mark on two occasions, my situation with Dad's passing did not help me prepare for the exam thoroughly but I was determined and managed to get 93%.
I hope I never have to sit another exam the same number of times.
Make sure your CAO's, CAR's and AIP's are tabbed and up to date so that you can find the info quickly. The exam takes about an hour to do, the rest of your time should be spent checking your answers..
I hope I never have to sit another exam the same number of times.
Make sure your CAO's, CAR's and AIP's are tabbed and up to date so that you can find the info quickly. The exam takes about an hour to do, the rest of your time should be spent checking your answers..
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TID EDIT
Back on topic:
My flight school didn't have an AIP and I'd ordered and paid for my Jep's so I didn't want to go out and buy an AIP (the Jep's book took about a week longer than the guy told me it would to arrive).
Lesson learned with that one, also learned a lesson about asking for a little bit of advice from the people here on PPRuNe.
I just wanted some info on the appeal process and ended up getting some of that as well as a heap of views on my personality or weaknesses. Water off a ducks back but I think I'll just stick with speaking to trusted colleagues for advice in the future. Pity as there are some really helpful people on here, as always it's the minority that ruin it for the rest.
After I've finished with the appeal process I'll put up a post offering some insight as to how it all went and what steps I end up taking.
Cheers for the help guys!
Back on topic:
My flight school didn't have an AIP and I'd ordered and paid for my Jep's so I didn't want to go out and buy an AIP (the Jep's book took about a week longer than the guy told me it would to arrive).
Lesson learned with that one, also learned a lesson about asking for a little bit of advice from the people here on PPRuNe.
I just wanted some info on the appeal process and ended up getting some of that as well as a heap of views on my personality or weaknesses. Water off a ducks back but I think I'll just stick with speaking to trusted colleagues for advice in the future. Pity as there are some really helpful people on here, as always it's the minority that ruin it for the rest.
After I've finished with the appeal process I'll put up a post offering some insight as to how it all went and what steps I end up taking.
Cheers for the help guys!
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Your flight school didn't have an AIP!!! They let you go into an Air Law exam without one? Holy Smokes!!! Alarm bells are ringing mate.
How could you even study for the exam without an AIP? Half of the exam is based on rules/regs/proceedures out of the AIP. - I would be angry at your flight school, not the muppets at ASL.
For the record i picked up a few in-accuracies in my CPL exams (Spelling mistakes, wrong aerodrome id's, bad grammar) and i made note of all these and presented them to the examiner at the end of the exam. She was a bit unsure of what to do but forwarded them to her supervisor, and on each occasion i got an email from the head honcho of ASL thanking me for bringing these things to light and advising that said questions had been amended.
Good luck with the appeal mate, i am keen to know what the process and outcome is.
povopilot
How could you even study for the exam without an AIP? Half of the exam is based on rules/regs/proceedures out of the AIP. - I would be angry at your flight school, not the muppets at ASL.
For the record i picked up a few in-accuracies in my CPL exams (Spelling mistakes, wrong aerodrome id's, bad grammar) and i made note of all these and presented them to the examiner at the end of the exam. She was a bit unsure of what to do but forwarded them to her supervisor, and on each occasion i got an email from the head honcho of ASL thanking me for bringing these things to light and advising that said questions had been amended.
Good luck with the appeal mate, i am keen to know what the process and outcome is.
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I love having a bitch & moan as much as anybody.
Integro,
You lodged a complaint about a perceived injustice & got shot down. Good for you.
By taking further action you are figuratively banging your head against a brick wall about a non safety related issue. This is perceived at best as being misguided/delusional and at worst, a whiner. Hence the negative reactions.
Both the military and the airlines despise perceived whiners & I can guarantee that any hint of complaint as an OFF CDT that's seen as whining will be met with a "harden the f
k up".
Aviation is full of injustices that are too numerous to mention. The smart money is on saving your fight for the times that people in aviation will try to kill you.
You lodged a complaint about a perceived injustice & got shot down. Good for you.
By taking further action you are figuratively banging your head against a brick wall about a non safety related issue. This is perceived at best as being misguided/delusional and at worst, a whiner. Hence the negative reactions.
Both the military and the airlines despise perceived whiners & I can guarantee that any hint of complaint as an OFF CDT that's seen as whining will be met with a "harden the f
k up".Aviation is full of injustices that are too numerous to mention. The smart money is on saving your fight for the times that people in aviation will try to kill you.
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By taking further action you are figuratively banging your head against a brick wall about a non safety related issue. This is perceived at best as being misguided/delusional and at worst, a whiner. Hence the negative reactions.
540....
" back then it was a proper 8? exams over two days. "......
In NOV - was it '65? - a couple of us got together and stirred each other into sitting for the whole 5 in one sitting. (CPL- At Bondi Pavilion)
"Twas the last exam where 'Engines' and 'Airframes' were two separate subjects. We even managed a pass in SCPL MET at this sit.
We Passed all 5 OK - Then they were....O V A H !
Yeah.....'Landing Wires' - wot were they for now????
" back then it was a proper 8? exams over two days. "......
In NOV - was it '65? - a couple of us got together and stirred each other into sitting for the whole 5 in one sitting. (CPL- At Bondi Pavilion)
"Twas the last exam where 'Engines' and 'Airframes' were two separate subjects. We even managed a pass in SCPL MET at this sit.
We Passed all 5 OK - Then they were....O V A H !
Yeah.....'Landing Wires' - wot were they for now????
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Where do you go after a failed CPL exam appeal to CASA?
As the above poster said, sit it again. But to add another answer to yr original question 'integro', don't come to PPRUNE for an answer. You now know this now but had to get 'run over' by a few to find out that it's dangerous to cross the PPRUNE rd.
I'm sorry you got abuse from some of us in here, at least you have charactor, you have shown that your willing not to take something you believe in enough lying down. 'Howard Hughes" summed it up well.
Flyinggit
As the above poster said, sit it again. But to add another answer to yr original question 'integro', don't come to PPRUNE for an answer. You now know this now but had to get 'run over' by a few to find out that it's dangerous to cross the PPRUNE rd.
I'm sorry you got abuse from some of us in here, at least you have charactor, you have shown that your willing not to take something you believe in enough lying down. 'Howard Hughes" summed it up well.
Flyinggit
Nunc est bibendum
For some reason this old tale seems appropriate:
Integro, I suggest re-reading management lesson 1. Then have a good hard think about lesson 2. Personally I reckon that if you persist in appealing then you're going to be living in lesson 3.
Of course, I could just be another person hanging crap on you too.
Good luck either way.
A little bird was flying south for the winter. It was so cold the bird froze and fell to the ground in a large field. While it was lying there, a cow came by and dropped some dung on it. As the frozen bird lay there in the pile of cow dung, it began to realize how warm it was. The dung was actually thawing him out! He lay there all warm and happy, and soon began to sing for joy. A passing cat heard the bird singing and came to investigate. Following the sound, the cat discovered the bird under the pile of cow dung, and promptly dug it out and ate it.
Management Lesson:
1) Not everyone who ****s on you is your enemy.
2) Not everyone who gets you out of **** is your friend.
3) And when you’re in deep ****, it’s best to keep your mouth shut.
Management Lesson:
1) Not everyone who ****s on you is your enemy.
2) Not everyone who gets you out of **** is your friend.
3) And when you’re in deep ****, it’s best to keep your mouth shut.
Of course, I could just be another person hanging crap on you too.
Good luck either way.
That dog question in the CPL law exam has been around for years .. it was around when I sat for CPL law some 20 years ago now. Do you really think CASA is going to change the answer to that question after all these years, based on your appeal? If they do, it will mean that there's been an error in an exam question for over many years .. I doubt whether CASA will ever admit to that.
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"The dog should be carried in the cabin and restrained" is correct. The fact that it doesn't mention the mat is misleading, but it doesn't state that there is no mat. It leaves the mat question open. There are a lot of other requirements for the flight that are not mentioned as well. The question does not specifically state that the aircraft has a current MR or is below its MTOW or that the pilot has a medical.
It is an exercise in semantics, it is misleading and as someone who obviously knows the reg it must be very frustrating for you. There are many other equally badly worded questions in the air law exam. I guess the examiners are trying not to quote whole slabs of the regs in the answers to make it very clear, as that would jog your memory and make it easy. It is one of the failings of multiple choice questions when testing something that is more complex than a simple black and white answer.
If I ask the question "Is it permissible to carry a dog in the cabin of an aircraft?", the answer is "Yes". There are other requirements, but the answer is still "Yes". The fact that compliance with the other requirements is not specified in the question does not change the answer. If I add the word 'restrained' in front of 'dog', the answer is the same. If I add 'on an absorbent mat' after 'dog' its still the same.
The exam question is misleading because it does mention one other requirement (restraint), but does not address the mat issue.
It is not 'fair', but as others have said it is time to get over it and move on.
Good luck next time around.
It is an exercise in semantics, it is misleading and as someone who obviously knows the reg it must be very frustrating for you. There are many other equally badly worded questions in the air law exam. I guess the examiners are trying not to quote whole slabs of the regs in the answers to make it very clear, as that would jog your memory and make it easy. It is one of the failings of multiple choice questions when testing something that is more complex than a simple black and white answer.
If I ask the question "Is it permissible to carry a dog in the cabin of an aircraft?", the answer is "Yes". There are other requirements, but the answer is still "Yes". The fact that compliance with the other requirements is not specified in the question does not change the answer. If I add the word 'restrained' in front of 'dog', the answer is the same. If I add 'on an absorbent mat' after 'dog' its still the same.
The exam question is misleading because it does mention one other requirement (restraint), but does not address the mat issue.
It is not 'fair', but as others have said it is time to get over it and move on.
Good luck next time around.
Last edited by scrufflefish; 7th Dec 2008 at 16:03. Reason: I like editing
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Hey Psycho Joe, a far more reasonable post. Thanks for the insight, I had a feeling that I would be banging my head against a brick wall trying to fight CASA.
On the not about being a whiner I see CASA, Qantas and ADF as 3 completely different situations. While some people may act the same no matter where they are I do not.
I think with the ADF you're stepping in to a situation where you leave all of your rights and opinions at the door (some may not see it that way). I figure they are after "yes men" and that's what they'll get. For example, in the FSP you may rank very highly and may have blitzed the theory stuff and then in the OSB none of them want you because "they don't like you". There's nothing that you can do about that and you have to be prepared for that.
However ASL exam, I don't feel I owe ASL anything (I pay their wages not the other way around) and CASA are a governing body, some where that you would expect to be able to make an appeal.
Qantas and ADF may one day pay my wage for me = I do as I'm told when I'm told and how I'm told to do it.
Bit of a drift but something I thought I should mention.
On the not about being a whiner I see CASA, Qantas and ADF as 3 completely different situations. While some people may act the same no matter where they are I do not.
I think with the ADF you're stepping in to a situation where you leave all of your rights and opinions at the door (some may not see it that way). I figure they are after "yes men" and that's what they'll get. For example, in the FSP you may rank very highly and may have blitzed the theory stuff and then in the OSB none of them want you because "they don't like you". There's nothing that you can do about that and you have to be prepared for that.
However ASL exam, I don't feel I owe ASL anything (I pay their wages not the other way around) and CASA are a governing body, some where that you would expect to be able to make an appeal.
Qantas and ADF may one day pay my wage for me = I do as I'm told when I'm told and how I'm told to do it.
Bit of a drift but something I thought I should mention.
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Hey there,
I have sat for the ASL Air Law exams and had a question that went like this :
What are the hours of activation of RXXX.
I looked it up in ERSA double checked it, then ticked the right answer. Went through the entire paper again and tripple checked every answer.
Guess what!? I got that particular question wrong! How can that be? I refered to the correct source to check if the area was active or not.
Even if i did pass with 85%, i think it would be unfair, say if someone else had gotten 78% and failed because he answered correctly the same question!
( Told a mate of mine to answer the same question wrongly and he got the same Q and put down the wrong answer....passed with 80%)
ASL and CASA have to be sure, its their job!
I have sat for the ASL Air Law exams and had a question that went like this :
What are the hours of activation of RXXX.
I looked it up in ERSA double checked it, then ticked the right answer. Went through the entire paper again and tripple checked every answer.
Guess what!? I got that particular question wrong! How can that be? I refered to the correct source to check if the area was active or not.
Even if i did pass with 85%, i think it would be unfair, say if someone else had gotten 78% and failed because he answered correctly the same question!
( Told a mate of mine to answer the same question wrongly and he got the same Q and put down the wrong answer....passed with 80%)
ASL and CASA have to be sure, its their job!
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Surely someone should independently go in and audit all casa exams or casa should provide you when you have finished the exam the question you got wrong and the correct answer whilst at the testing centre on line. 