Army out of fixed wing...

[tiger19]

when the army were flying their single engine cessna's, that was OK, then they wanted to burn some Kero, so they got some Nomads and porters, and that was just OK, but then the Army went and got some of those pressurised birds that took them up into the flight levels!!! naughty naughty. You should know that up there its for the RAAF lads only. So listen here army and navy aviation, stay low and slow and keep out of the RAAFs flight levels. Maybe the army might want some caribous!!

[Razor]

Message to current 173 pilots

1. Don't loose any of the sqn history. There/were many pieces of memorabilia within the squadron - the scrapbooks are history within themselves. The MAAF sounds like a good place. For example - The Porter farewell flypast under the Sydney Harbour Bridge is captured in a framed picture somewhere in the squadron.

2. Also, if the FW capability is to go - there are many past Horizontal Pursuit Squadron pilots and maintainers out there that would have a real interest in sending the squadron off properly. Get this right!

[slow n low]

You should know that up there its for the RAAF lads only. So listen here army and navy aviation, stay low and slow and keep out of the RAAFs flight levels. Maybe the army might want some caribous!!

tiger, WTF? am I missing something? does that mean jump ships should keep out of the FL's to be reserved for QF and others? Best you keep out of the FL's too till you grow up. BTW our Chooks operate above the transition layer on ops, best send them a message to quit that as well.

[Flyingblind]

I often shake my head at this kind of short sightedness from those at the top whho should know better. That they mmake decisions like this clearly demonstare their lake of understanding of AAvn usefulness and keenes.

When tooting around in an Army aircraft i always had the greatest confidance in the maintainers and those at the stick, as some others have said for the type of tempo and type of flying they do with their resources they do an absolutly amazing job.

Like it or not we have inherited the British military system, for all its faults it is still a reasonably good system, however some modernisation needs to ocurr, perhaps outlining exactly who operates what would be a start, or if that ignited too many turf wars we could just morph into the Australian Marine Corps and everybody is (suposidly) on-side.

Any one who has operates along side those guys and girls will understand the simulatities we share.

Personaly this would be the strucute that i would like to see, pick the best bits and go from there. Also kind of ironic the the mighty 'Bou was originaly designed for the US Army as a 100hr Army flying truck, something that seems to be lost on our currant swag of aircraft designers - simplicity,rugedness and dependability! thats pretty much all Army Aviation wants out of its gear, here and the US.

Think the days of Golden Bullet soloutions may have had its day, even the US AF is struggling for funds to buy the nubers of zoomie types it wants. Perhaps they should outsourse their procurment division and buy thousands of J-10's whilst we pin a tag on order

[JOAT]

173 History

Razor,

I hear the boys are on to it...saw the scrapbooks and the pictures in the Redback Club very recently. Some awesome photos.

I also hear there is serious discussion about a farewell function in Early Nov, should hear about it soon.....bit of a sad day when it happens...think there would be a few interested?

Ill yalk to the boys about it...

Choi

JOAT (MON)

[flying-spike]

Reunion?

Please PM with details when they come to hand

[Arm out the window]

One of the reasons for transfer of the RW was the nature of the tasking orders and the potential for the Air Component Commander to be out of touch with the needs of the field commander. Having the ability to put the asset in In Spt, or DS (without pol) is a real advantage.

That argument doesn't wash. 9,5,12 and 35 SQNs RAAF were providing timely and effective RW support to Army units prior to the transfer, with squadrons or parts thereof deployed in the bush near the battalions in the field, AMCs for missions attending orders, representatives in the ground commander's HQ tasking the assets directly, good awareness of the objectives of the ground battle on the part of the aircrews and their commanders. Strange as it may seem, RAAF aircrew could comprehend what the ground troops were trying to achieve and work to enhance that. The primary roles of these squadrons was Army support.

Transfer of assets to the Army took place, and, surprise surprise, there were still only as many helicopters as there had been before, but with less experienced crews / maintainers, so the service provided actually took a hit, rather than being enhanced.

[KRviator]

Originally Posted by JOAT

I also hear there is serious discussion about a farewell function in Early Nov, should hear about it soon.....bit of a sad day when it happens...think there would be a few interested?

Ill talk to the boys about it...

Count me in. Even though I was only a "Fondler" at 173, it was a hoot for the 2 and a bit years there. Oakey, Darwin, Weipa, Shoalwater Bay, and a few other places too.

Sad to see the Army lose the fixed wing capability, especially in respect of the crews and the maintainers who've worked long and hard to provide a much needed, but often overlooked capability. I guess we can only hope the RAAFies fail to provide the same level of service as 173 did, and the powers that be finally realise what they've thrown away. Can't see it happening though, unfortunately.

[Brian Abraham]

Transfer of assets to the Army took place, and, surprise surprise, there were still only as many helicopters as there had been before, but with less experienced crews / maintainers, so the service provided actually took a hit, rather than being enhanced.

Of course they took a hit initially when the people were at the bottom of the learning curve, what would you expect? Once they got up the curve though they could look any man/woman in the eye, and then some.

Strange as it may seem, RAAF aircrew could comprehend what the ground troops were trying to achieve and work to enhance that. The primary roles of these squadrons was Army support.

That may be so at the squadron level, but when trying to organise operations with RAAF tasking you could be readily convinced otherwise. Whether it was a political game being played I know not, but strongly suspect it was the case on one exercise with which I (not Army) have an intimate background.

[eagle 86]

Sorry to disappoint both RAAF and Army but the best support provided to Army was by Navy pilots. There are a number of quotable quotes on books written about the SEA war games that note this - indeed the quote "Get the bloody job done" was spoken to a recalcitrant US army aviator by an Australian CC pilot to re-focuss his mind on the job. I witnessed RAAF ops from a position of impartiality and I can assure you they received quality support. I doubt you would find an SAS digger from 66-71 who would disagree. The main problem in the early days was a lack of concept of operations, particularly on behalf of the Army commanders, as to how to employ lift helos.
I was very close to operations to protect the Bass Straight oil rigs in the late seventies and had the very great pleasure to receive a letter from a senior Army operative indicating his total satisfaction with Navy support and indicating that he would prefer that service's support over the other two services.
I think you will find that Army commanders these days are having similar issues with Army aviation as they did with the RAAF forty years ago.
GAGS
E86

[Arm out the window]

I don't doubt there were all sorts of political machinations going on from all parties involved, but I know at the time I was involved in the battlefield helicopter caper ('84 onward) we (RAAF) were working pretty hard to do the best job possible for the ground troops, and the tasking system couldn't have been much more direct, ie air cell in an 11x11 (physically) attached to the brigade or battalion commander's HQ setup.
There's not much point in dredging it all up again anyway, I guess, but we were doing about as much as you could with a limited number of helicopters and hours (which didn't change with the service transfer, except to take a temporary slide in the downward direction) and a number of users all wanting them at once.
I transferred services myself for a few years and there was basically no change tasking-wise, so it was hard to see where the benefit lay at the time when weighed up against the costs.

But I digress - the discussion was about fixed-wing, so best I pull my head in now.

[tsalta]

Sqn Farewell

I expect there will be a website up shortly with the farewell details. I'll post the link here then. Will be a sad day but a big party.

tsalta

[Razor]

Good to see that there is some sort of farewell being planned. I look forward to getting together with some of the past and present to talk about old times. The 173 Sqn 25th at the Oakey RSL a couple of years back was a hoot.

What we really need is to find a couple of old ATCO huts and have the party there. A few old D.Hall "memorial" couches and a fridge with "Mighty Neil" on the side and it'll be all set. Now to recreate the inside of the "fondlers" hut might be an issue for the sexual harassment mob but would be worth it. Some of those posters on the walls were history in themselves. That'll set the scene for many!

[JAOT MK2]

173 Farewell to army fixed wing

173 are staging a Farewell to Army Fixed Wing function at Oakey on the Sat 7th Nov 09. The add is in the latest Aus Aviation magazine and says expressions of interest are to be directed to them. Can provide more details if required. Formal hangar party for old Army fixed wing people...aircrew, trades, fondlers etc...

Cheers....sorry info was late...

Check out the magazine for info.

[Trojan1981]

Sat 7th Nov 09

Same day as the RAAF Caribou farewell in Townsville.

[tiger19]

what about the air tractor AT-802u for the Army fixed wing????? Definately affordable

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Trojan81

Same day as the RAAF Caribou farewell in Townsville

Now that IS ironic!

[grusome]

......and really b.ggers things up for those interested in attending both!