Collision Avoidance in Cloud
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Collision Avoidance in Cloud
Yesterday was the closest I've come to a mid-air without a visual fix on the other aircraft.
While cruising in IMC at 8000' from KAT to CWR, MB Centre gave me traffic advisories on an unknown aircraft at VFR quadrantal heading ESE. Calls to it from Centre were unheeded, and as we closed, the aircraft began descending and passed through my level, and in IMC there was no possibility of a visual fix.
Fortunately the onboard TCAD system painted the target at about 9nm, and it's descent was closely monitored, although I got a surprise when it left 8500 at 3nm, because I wasn't expecting it to enter cloud. I began evasive action (in IMC) just as the TCAD announced:
"TRAFFIC, SAME ALTITUDE, LESS THAN ONE MILE"
So if was you just past Oberon at 1107 Sun 09 Nov tracking ESE and had left 9500' (near Bathurst) and was at 8000' still descending just past Oberon, you are extremely lucky to have made it home.
While cruising in IMC at 8000' from KAT to CWR, MB Centre gave me traffic advisories on an unknown aircraft at VFR quadrantal heading ESE. Calls to it from Centre were unheeded, and as we closed, the aircraft began descending and passed through my level, and in IMC there was no possibility of a visual fix.
Fortunately the onboard TCAD system painted the target at about 9nm, and it's descent was closely monitored, although I got a surprise when it left 8500 at 3nm, because I wasn't expecting it to enter cloud. I began evasive action (in IMC) just as the TCAD announced:
"TRAFFIC, SAME ALTITUDE, LESS THAN ONE MILE"
So if was you just past Oberon at 1107 Sun 09 Nov tracking ESE and had left 9500' (near Bathurst) and was at 8000' still descending just past Oberon, you are extremely lucky to have made it home.
It is a nerve wrecking experience indeed that i am sure most of us have been through in our IFR flying days and nights. No matter how well you are equipped with avoidance gadgets there always will be a VFR cowboy willing to take the risk of decending through cloud to make it back to Bankstown for dinner. And will stay quiet to avoid being busted therefore risking innocent lives once again.
The scariest experience i ever had during an instrument let down into Scone in thick fog about midday when i just caught the shadow of a Navajo crossing in front of me about 100 meters at the same level. He decided to drop down because he saw a patch of ground below through the fog. It took five people to hold me back on the ground after we landed because i was about to rip his head off. Fresh CPL, fresh MECIR with 6 people on board. If you read this i am sure you still remember your lucky day and will now now who i am. We both made it through sheer luck and very narrow margin.
On a happier note...
Hey Doc! Have you still got room for more gismos in your panel?
The scariest experience i ever had during an instrument let down into Scone in thick fog about midday when i just caught the shadow of a Navajo crossing in front of me about 100 meters at the same level. He decided to drop down because he saw a patch of ground below through the fog. It took five people to hold me back on the ground after we landed because i was about to rip his head off. Fresh CPL, fresh MECIR with 6 people on board. If you read this i am sure you still remember your lucky day and will now now who i am. We both made it through sheer luck and very narrow margin.
On a happier note...
Hey Doc! Have you still got room for more gismos in your panel?
Small possibility but it could have also been a busted mode Charlie, but certainly a scary story if true. I've heard of a few VFR heroes busting IMC for 1 reason or another.
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You should see what goes on up in FNQ....especially the very northern tip (and I dare say other parts of the land aswell) 
Last edited by planemad_bk; 10th Nov 2008 at 20:03. Reason: poor grammar
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I've heard of a few VFR heroes busting IMC for 1 reason or another.
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It's scary stuff really - it's not easy to eyeball at distances greater than 2-3 miles when TCAD is telling you where to look. It's harder when there are multiple targets at close range.
Jet_A_Knight
Get ASA to pull the tapes.
Get ASA to pull the tapes.
Last edited by Ovation; 10th Nov 2008 at 21:39.
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Stuff like this doesn't just happen in FNQ, it happens everywhere. If you think that VFR aircraft don't enter cloud on a regular basis then you are HORRIBLY mistaken, no matter what state you are in. Luckily for him, he probably doesn't know anything nearly happened so he'll probasbly go and do the same thing again tomorrow and the next day.
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All radar in the modern world can be tracked now, get hold of the unit you were recieve your service from, then ask them for who provides their SSR feeds. Usually they all come from one place. NATS in the UK for example.
We get it all the time, more for tracking aircraft involved in airprox's etc. or airspace infringments. Swanick area control centre who house the guys who investigate incidents, you give them a time date and place, the aircraft in question and they can track it through the radar tapes back to where they believe it landed.
We get it all the time, more for tracking aircraft involved in airprox's etc. or airspace infringments. Swanick area control centre who house the guys who investigate incidents, you give them a time date and place, the aircraft in question and they can track it through the radar tapes back to where they believe it landed.
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I doubt whether they would have the resources to track the other a/c to it's destination and discover it's call-sign.
The ASA safety guys love these ones, if they are allowed to go looking. They might find it from departure rather than arrival. But to what end, to discover the wrong mode C or to give the pilot a kick in the you know where?
The ATSB might be more interested and can 'requisition' the tapes from ASA if they choose to do so. Look for CAIR, (Repcon) I think it's called now, as a way of dobbing him/her in.
When you live....
Had a very similar experience in the Moorabbin training area recently - was IFR heading north for Plenty at 4000' and popped out of cloud to see a decathalon(?) cloud dancing direct ahead.
Polite enquiry to Melbourne Radar found that radar wasn't showing him at all so no way to track him back to Moorabbin. Pilot probably didn't realise how lucky he was either. I'm no good at judging distances mid-air but he was little more than a runway length away and only just just slightly below.
To VFR pilots who are thinking "I don't go IMC" - just remember that VFR includes 1000' above and below and 1500m from cloud for this very reason when above 3000' or 1000' AGL less than this and you are IMC by definition.
UTR.
Polite enquiry to Melbourne Radar found that radar wasn't showing him at all so no way to track him back to Moorabbin. Pilot probably didn't realise how lucky he was either. I'm no good at judging distances mid-air but he was little more than a runway length away and only just just slightly below.
To VFR pilots who are thinking "I don't go IMC" - just remember that VFR includes 1000' above and below and 1500m from cloud for this very reason when above 3000' or 1000' AGL less than this and you are IMC by definition.
UTR.
Last edited by UnderneathTheRadar; 10th Nov 2008 at 22:44. Reason: ooops - wan't heading for Epping!
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1500 m is a very short distance for example a B200 doing 250 KIAS below 10,000 on descent. I have seen VFR aircraft sitting just below the cloud base and of course being the overtaking aircraft on descent, the traffic is hidden under the nose. These days I have some protection with TCAS.
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UTR - Very interesting to hear that Radar didn't have this Decath on radar. I've been given traffic advice in that area for a flock of birds heading my way so thought everything was on radar. Perhaps thick cloud will hide you and if that is the case, then that's really bad because perhaps anyone without a transponder possibly can't be seen for IFR traffic updates.
PS: I love hearing something like this:
Radar - VH-XXX, no observed IFR traffic for your descent. G'day.
XXX - Radar, do you have any VFR traffic for my descent?
Radar - VH-XXX, yeah sure, 1 at 2 o'clock, 1 at 12 o'clock and 1 at 11 O'clock, at your altitude. G'day.
PS: I love hearing something like this:
Radar - VH-XXX, no observed IFR traffic for your descent. G'day.
XXX - Radar, do you have any VFR traffic for my descent?
Radar - VH-XXX, yeah sure, 1 at 2 o'clock, 1 at 12 o'clock and 1 at 11 O'clock, at your altitude. G'day.
You need to move north XXX!
I have generally found ATC to be very proactive with VFR traffic that is painting on their radar eg when exiting Oakey airspace into the Toowoomba circuit.
Dr
I have generally found ATC to be very proactive with VFR traffic that is painting on their radar eg when exiting Oakey airspace into the Toowoomba circuit.
Dr
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Perhaps full reporting for all aircraft not just ifr would be a big help
Understand a lot more radio traffic however would be a lot safer maybe at levels over 2500 for example ???
Seems to work ok in other countries
Understand a lot more radio traffic however would be a lot safer maybe at levels over 2500 for example ???
Seems to work ok in other countries
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I beg to differ. VFR traffic is not always given down here. (keeping in mind the controller could even be in the same office as your ones up there)
I guess the reason for not giving the VFR traffic would be if the IFR traffic reported visual on arrival and until such time that he cancels IFR would be responsible for spotting VFR traffic. Just a thought.
I guess the reason for not giving the VFR traffic would be if the IFR traffic reported visual on arrival and until such time that he cancels IFR would be responsible for spotting VFR traffic. Just a thought.