charge without conviction
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charge without conviction
G'day Gents,
I am currently in the process of applying for my first airline gig, but I have an issue that I'm hoping some might be able to advise me on.
Around a month ago I was out partying with mates and was involved in a bit of a physical altercation. A week later I received a phone call from the Queensland police notifying me that charges had been filed against me. I've since had the interview and when I told the police about my situation (an aspiring airline pilot) and being that I am a first offender (and there was no serious injury caused in the incident) I was told it is highly unlikely that I will be convicted and that I will receive a diversion from the courts (where I receive no criminal record and have to pay a certain amount of money to a designated charity). The date for court has not yet been set but it is highly likely that it will not be resolved before the application process finishes.
My question is in relation to supplying a criminal history background check. As it is unlikely that the trial will have been completed before the check is completed, is the pending case going to show up on the check and if yes will I be able to proceed with the application even though I have been charged but do not have any convictions?
If anyone has any insight in these matters.. some info would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers
I am currently in the process of applying for my first airline gig, but I have an issue that I'm hoping some might be able to advise me on.
Around a month ago I was out partying with mates and was involved in a bit of a physical altercation. A week later I received a phone call from the Queensland police notifying me that charges had been filed against me. I've since had the interview and when I told the police about my situation (an aspiring airline pilot) and being that I am a first offender (and there was no serious injury caused in the incident) I was told it is highly unlikely that I will be convicted and that I will receive a diversion from the courts (where I receive no criminal record and have to pay a certain amount of money to a designated charity). The date for court has not yet been set but it is highly likely that it will not be resolved before the application process finishes.
My question is in relation to supplying a criminal history background check. As it is unlikely that the trial will have been completed before the check is completed, is the pending case going to show up on the check and if yes will I be able to proceed with the application even though I have been charged but do not have any convictions?
If anyone has any insight in these matters.. some info would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers
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Definitely talk to a solicitor about this. That way you'll know the information you're getting is correct and relevant, and not from a public forum.
toronto_flyer.
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I believe airline application forms, and criminal record checks refer to convictions only. i.e. "Have you ever been convicted of..."
Call the AFP to check if you want to make sure.
Call the AFP to check if you want to make sure.
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stratus.123
Before I go further, please check with either a solicitor or even a legal advice centre, such as a legal aid office, however, it was a common practice when I was working as a lawyer to try and get a penalty without a conviction being recorded for some clients.
The background checks invariably ask whether there are any convictions in your past. The legal answer is "NO" and you are entitled to say that.
I note from your post that the matter may not be complete before the airline application is processed. It is possible to get a court matter brought forward, especially if it is going to be a plea of "guilty" to the charge. But get proper advice first before doing this. I never practiced in Q'land and I do not know either the law or the procedure for that State.
Before I go further, please check with either a solicitor or even a legal advice centre, such as a legal aid office, however, it was a common practice when I was working as a lawyer to try and get a penalty without a conviction being recorded for some clients.
The background checks invariably ask whether there are any convictions in your past. The legal answer is "NO" and you are entitled to say that.
I note from your post that the matter may not be complete before the airline application is processed. It is possible to get a court matter brought forward, especially if it is going to be a plea of "guilty" to the charge. But get proper advice first before doing this. I never practiced in Q'land and I do not know either the law or the procedure for that State.
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man sux to be you at the moment. On a serious note though, i agree, you really need to get legal advise. Police will often say to you that they will put forward that you get a no conviction recorded under section 10.1a or b of the crimes act. This involves you pleading guilty. At the end of the day, it is up to the magistrate if he wants to dismiss under the act. Its a gamble you take but from the polices side, they win because you admit guilt. If it is . S10.1a or b, you dont get an actual conviction recorded but there is still a note on your file that you attended court but yes if anyone asks if you have any convictions, say no because you dont. Free advise. BB
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it is true it does suck to be me at the moment.. very stressfull stuff!
I am in contact with a solicitor and have an appointment booked in for soon, was just seeing what experience some may have had with the criminal history check process.
I certainly will be placing a no in the "have you had any convictions" box, although, is anyone aware if the AFP check reveals information with regard to pending court proceedings?
I am in contact with a solicitor and have an appointment booked in for soon, was just seeing what experience some may have had with the criminal history check process.
I certainly will be placing a no in the "have you had any convictions" box, although, is anyone aware if the AFP check reveals information with regard to pending court proceedings?
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Well the ASIC one certainly does, thus my comment.
Not only does it require you to give permission for the check, it also requires you in a separate area to tick a box that there are (or are not) matters pending.
A false disclosure in such matters can be a career decision. Rather crazy because a criminal conviction for belting someone should have no bearing on one's "security" ability to go airside and fly an aircraft. But, the matter of aviation security is unstoppable and above all reality.
I cannot recommend the next, merely mention it - find out exactly what they do check and ask the solicitor for an opinion on a voluntary disclosure if it looks as though you are going to get pinged in the check.
The problem is also that involvement in a punch up is not a good career advert. Not so much the attitudinal factors but the difficulty of flying an aircraft with busted fingers / broken wrist. I have, in a past life, had to suggest to several footballers who were injury prone that they needed to decide on their hobby or their career.
Not only does it require you to give permission for the check, it also requires you in a separate area to tick a box that there are (or are not) matters pending.
A false disclosure in such matters can be a career decision. Rather crazy because a criminal conviction for belting someone should have no bearing on one's "security" ability to go airside and fly an aircraft. But, the matter of aviation security is unstoppable and above all reality.
I cannot recommend the next, merely mention it - find out exactly what they do check and ask the solicitor for an opinion on a voluntary disclosure if it looks as though you are going to get pinged in the check.
The problem is also that involvement in a punch up is not a good career advert. Not so much the attitudinal factors but the difficulty of flying an aircraft with busted fingers / broken wrist. I have, in a past life, had to suggest to several footballers who were injury prone that they needed to decide on their hobby or their career.
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There can be no harm done in ticking the "Pending" box. It's all about the outcome as the charges could be related to anything and aren't relevant until the end result (hence the old, innocent until proven innocent part).
The best course of action would be to ensure you have a good lawyer, dress nicely and do your bit. Perhaps volunteer for a charity to do with flying like the fund-raiser in Vic this weekend at Tyabb and use that to demonstrate that you couldn't do it without an ASIC. Perhaps you can join Angel Flight.
As long as you haven't committed too bad of a crime, a charge without conviction would be fairly common, especially for assault so don't think the worst straight off.
The best course of action would be to ensure you have a good lawyer, dress nicely and do your bit. Perhaps volunteer for a charity to do with flying like the fund-raiser in Vic this weekend at Tyabb and use that to demonstrate that you couldn't do it without an ASIC. Perhaps you can join Angel Flight.
As long as you haven't committed too bad of a crime, a charge without conviction would be fairly common, especially for assault so don't think the worst straight off.
A Charge is one thing, a conviction is another.
Have you been convicted? NO
No questions.
That is as of today, of course.
Stand up for yourself, NEVER admit to anything - DENY DENY DENY if you are speaking to the police and never speak to them without a solicitor present.
Stratus - you are in a fight for your professional life. If you make a mistake the only loser will be YOU.
DO NOT under any circumstances speak to the police without a solicitor present, no matter how they trivialise your interview.
THIS IS LIFE AND (professional) DEATH
FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE.
Please phone me 24/7
Regards
Horatio
Former Accused
Have you been convicted? NO
No questions.
That is as of today, of course.
Stand up for yourself, NEVER admit to anything - DENY DENY DENY if you are speaking to the police and never speak to them without a solicitor present.
Stratus - you are in a fight for your professional life. If you make a mistake the only loser will be YOU.
DO NOT under any circumstances speak to the police without a solicitor present, no matter how they trivialise your interview.
THIS IS LIFE AND (professional) DEATH
FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE.
Please phone me 24/7
Regards
Horatio
Former Accused
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 9th Nov 2008 at 19:12.
Run like hell to a solicitor and be prepared to spend some money.
You poor sod Stratus.
Leafblower is correct. Run like hell to a solicitor and be prepared to spend some money.
Don't talk to just ANY Solicitor, make sure you have a good one who specialises in "crash and bash", and do exactly what he says. My advice (and I am not a lawyer) would be you will need to be represented by a good Barrister, perhaps even a QC or Senior Counsel. The guy you need is probably one of the people that defends drunken League football stars.
I'm sorry to tell you that the your statement:
, if correctly reported as spoken by Police, is highly, even criminally, misleading Police advice, and it's a very old Police tactic. You must not believe a word of it.
It's designed to lull you into a false sense of security so that you make no plans, or only minimal ones, for your defence. That makes the Police prosecutors job of getting you convicted very, very easy.
You appear at court at the appointed day with no preparation and no lawyer, let alone a good Barrister, no witnesses, and no testimony because you expect nothing more than a "Tut Tut" and an admonition from the Bench.
The Police Prosecutor then leads with his comprehensive witness statements, testimony from the Police Officers involved and a medical report or two.
The Magistrate looks at you, then back at the Police. Your jaw drops. You have very little to say because you believed that friendly Constable on the telephone didn't you? You have no case, let alone anyone to argue it for you, and no one to expertly cross examine the prosecution witnesses on your behalf, because you didn't think your case warranted it did you? You now realise that you've been properly ****ed over by the Cops.
When the Magistrate gives you a custodial sentence there is no point in saying "But the Police said....!". "This will ruin my chances of being an airline pilot!" Too late! No diversions for you. The Constable you spoke to on the phone is not in Court and what he said is irrelevant hearsay anyway. It's the Magistrate who makes the decisions, and if you get one who decides to be an @rsehole on the day then you are in big trouble.
Please fight this one like you have been charged with murder and apply resources accordingly, starting with a good Solicitor and then a very good Barrister who is used to ****ing over Police Prosecutors. Budget around $20,000. If Alcohol was involved, you are going to need evidence that you have done an anger management course and that you are now dry forever. A psychiatrists report may be useful as well. Your charity work may also help. Through your Solicitor, you are going to have had to express remorse and probably pay compensation in advance. You may even be able to get the charges dropped if your solicitor is good.
To put it another way, have you seen those contrite looking footballers who went the biff at a Pub or nightclub and got away with it in the newspapers? That doesn't come cheap.
I'm sorry to say I've seen this Police tactic used many times. My brother is a Magistrate.
Good luck.
Leafblower is correct. Run like hell to a solicitor and be prepared to spend some money.
Don't talk to just ANY Solicitor, make sure you have a good one who specialises in "crash and bash", and do exactly what he says. My advice (and I am not a lawyer) would be you will need to be represented by a good Barrister, perhaps even a QC or Senior Counsel. The guy you need is probably one of the people that defends drunken League football stars.
I'm sorry to tell you that the your statement:
I was told it is highly unlikely that I will be convicted and that I will receive a diversion from the courts (where I receive no criminal record and have to pay a certain amount of money to a designated charity).
It's designed to lull you into a false sense of security so that you make no plans, or only minimal ones, for your defence. That makes the Police prosecutors job of getting you convicted very, very easy.
You appear at court at the appointed day with no preparation and no lawyer, let alone a good Barrister, no witnesses, and no testimony because you expect nothing more than a "Tut Tut" and an admonition from the Bench.
The Police Prosecutor then leads with his comprehensive witness statements, testimony from the Police Officers involved and a medical report or two.
The Magistrate looks at you, then back at the Police. Your jaw drops. You have very little to say because you believed that friendly Constable on the telephone didn't you? You have no case, let alone anyone to argue it for you, and no one to expertly cross examine the prosecution witnesses on your behalf, because you didn't think your case warranted it did you? You now realise that you've been properly ****ed over by the Cops.
When the Magistrate gives you a custodial sentence there is no point in saying "But the Police said....!". "This will ruin my chances of being an airline pilot!" Too late! No diversions for you. The Constable you spoke to on the phone is not in Court and what he said is irrelevant hearsay anyway. It's the Magistrate who makes the decisions, and if you get one who decides to be an @rsehole on the day then you are in big trouble.
Please fight this one like you have been charged with murder and apply resources accordingly, starting with a good Solicitor and then a very good Barrister who is used to ****ing over Police Prosecutors. Budget around $20,000. If Alcohol was involved, you are going to need evidence that you have done an anger management course and that you are now dry forever. A psychiatrists report may be useful as well. Your charity work may also help. Through your Solicitor, you are going to have had to express remorse and probably pay compensation in advance. You may even be able to get the charges dropped if your solicitor is good.
To put it another way, have you seen those contrite looking footballers who went the biff at a Pub or nightclub and got away with it in the newspapers? That doesn't come cheap.
I'm sorry to say I've seen this Police tactic used many times. My brother is a Magistrate.
Good luck.
Last edited by Sunfish; 9th Nov 2008 at 21:11.
VH -XXX:
I wouldn't even do that, you are simply inviting questioning and if there is a surplus of competitors for a position then your name will go to the bottom of the list.
For a start you don't KNOW you are going to be charged. You had a phone call from someone purporting to be a Policeman telling you something. You aren't charged until documents are presented to you.
Furthermore, if you get a good Solicitor on the case immediately and he can find the parties and Police involved and make some recompense then the charges may be able to be dropped by the Police. It all depends on the skill of the Solicitor. Please note: This is NOT a suggestion about committing bribery, but if the other parties aren't that fussed, are prepared to accept a grovelling apology from you, and don't want to see you lose a career opportunity, they might just agree to your donating $2000 to the Salvation Army or suchlike. It depends on the skill of the Solicitor, but it has to be done quickly before documents start being created.
Once documents are issued, follow your solicitors advice and make sure you have a good legal team. If you do end up having to go to court, not only do you have to have a good story and good people to tell it, as well as an ability to cross examine the Police, the Magistrate has to be delicately told what the consequences of a conviction would be for your career.
Get good legal advice, quickly.
There can be no harm done in ticking the "Pending" box. It's all about the outcome as the charges could be related to anything and aren't relevant until the end result (hence the old, innocent until proven innocent part).
For a start you don't KNOW you are going to be charged. You had a phone call from someone purporting to be a Policeman telling you something. You aren't charged until documents are presented to you.
Furthermore, if you get a good Solicitor on the case immediately and he can find the parties and Police involved and make some recompense then the charges may be able to be dropped by the Police. It all depends on the skill of the Solicitor. Please note: This is NOT a suggestion about committing bribery, but if the other parties aren't that fussed, are prepared to accept a grovelling apology from you, and don't want to see you lose a career opportunity, they might just agree to your donating $2000 to the Salvation Army or suchlike. It depends on the skill of the Solicitor, but it has to be done quickly before documents start being created.
Once documents are issued, follow your solicitors advice and make sure you have a good legal team. If you do end up having to go to court, not only do you have to have a good story and good people to tell it, as well as an ability to cross examine the Police, the Magistrate has to be delicately told what the consequences of a conviction would be for your career.
Get good legal advice, quickly.
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cheers for all the info and advice everyone.. much appreciated!
I'm curious if anyone has recently filled out the AFP criminal history check could tell me whether or not the form is a questionnaire type form and asks questions like "have you ever been charged with an offence?".. or do you just fill out your details and the AFP finds all this info by themselves?The form i found on their website just asks for your details and no such questions are asked, although I'm unsure if this is the exact form you fill out for an airline application?
I'm curious if anyone has recently filled out the AFP criminal history check could tell me whether or not the form is a questionnaire type form and asks questions like "have you ever been charged with an offence?".. or do you just fill out your details and the AFP finds all this info by themselves?The form i found on their website just asks for your details and no such questions are asked, although I'm unsure if this is the exact form you fill out for an airline application?
I'll say it again...
...Charged is one thing... convicted is another.
One of the nice things about our legal system is that old notion of "presumption of innocence". A criminal conviction is viewed very seriously - that is why we had all that stress about "the convict taint" up until the 1970s.
...that is also why there is a differentiation between "crimes" and "misdemeanors".
If you haven't been convicted of anything, leave it out.
...Charged is one thing... convicted is another.
One of the nice things about our legal system is that old notion of "presumption of innocence". A criminal conviction is viewed very seriously - that is why we had all that stress about "the convict taint" up until the 1970s.
...that is also why there is a differentiation between "crimes" and "misdemeanors".
If you haven't been convicted of anything, leave it out.
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Asking for legal advice on a forum like this makes as much sense as asking for taxation advice, ect, ect.
The post prior to to mine (or was when I posted) by Horatio Leafblower (btw H.L. don't give up your day job) said;
".
Wow, good catch phrase but......SO WRONG SUNSHINE!!!!
Pay the money and get advice from those with the qualifications to do so , H.L is a good example of faceless and non professional advice from a PROONE BB member.
As many have mentioned before, it is your career and your future earning potential.
Good luck and hope it works out for you.
The post prior to to mine (or was when I posted) by Horatio Leafblower (btw H.L. don't give up your day job) said;
"that is also why there is a differentiation between "crimes" and "misdemeanors
Wow, good catch phrase but......SO WRONG SUNSHINE!!!!
Pay the money and get advice from those with the qualifications to do so , H.L is a good example of faceless and non professional advice from a PROONE BB member.
As many have mentioned before, it is your career and your future earning potential.
Good luck and hope it works out for you.
Yeah welll... you know... it's like, kinda, the vibe of the Crimes Act.
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You should get proper legal representation. Hopefully the solicitor you have picked does plenty of criminal law. Depending on your solicitor's experience, he/she may well be able to handle the matter themselves without a barrister. You need a competent advocate in the court, not necessarily an expensive one (a QC/SC really sounds like overkill unless you're rolling in cash). Feel free to ask your solicitor what his/her experience in these sorts of matters is. If your solicitor can't answer your questions satisfactorily, find another one. Your State's law society may be able to help you in this regard.
In terms of answering questions from your prospective employer, you MUST answer questions truthfully as a lie that is later found out will justify terminating your employment. However, you are not obliged to volunteer information. So, for example, if you are asked about convictions you need not volunteer that you have been charged.
Finally, as we hear regularly these days, it's pretty easy to kill someone with 1 punch if they fall and hit their head. If you get through this one OK, walk away next time if you can.
Cheers
In terms of answering questions from your prospective employer, you MUST answer questions truthfully as a lie that is later found out will justify terminating your employment. However, you are not obliged to volunteer information. So, for example, if you are asked about convictions you need not volunteer that you have been charged.
Finally, as we hear regularly these days, it's pretty easy to kill someone with 1 punch if they fall and hit their head. If you get through this one OK, walk away next time if you can.
Cheers