Bushflight
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Capt i agree with your post to a point, yes you have to follow the law in a country that you are in HOWEVER, you do need to know the law 1st to be able to follow it.
Yes in NZ you can join base and in aussie you can't but how will one know that if no one ever told them???
its nice and easy just to start bagging people out for not knowing the law but last time i chekked it is NOT the law to resit a law exam when you go from NZ to Aussie.
when you come on holyday from Aussie to NZ are you going to sit a driving test?? i seriusly doubt anybody in this tread will.
yet there are at least one minor different rule on the road that will lead to a bit off confusion, yet nobody ever told you.
try on a strait road to turn left while oposite traffic on the same road wants to turn right into the same road. get my drift?? different give away rules in the 2 countries. but that is not going to make you all off a sudden a les profesional car driver now is it. just because you didnt know.
I am going to be a proffesional bloke and join mid down wind from now on.
I am willing to learn and to better, but i get the impression that there are some people on here that think they already no everything there is to know about aviation.
I bet you that very little if any guy/girl who comes over from ozzie to nz to fly would pick up a law book and studie it from back to front just incase there was a small difference somewere in the rules.
They licence cross over is a paper exercise at a casa office, for me i just wrongly asumed that the rules would be the same.
but there you go, one should never asume hey
cheers
Yes in NZ you can join base and in aussie you can't but how will one know that if no one ever told them???
its nice and easy just to start bagging people out for not knowing the law but last time i chekked it is NOT the law to resit a law exam when you go from NZ to Aussie.
when you come on holyday from Aussie to NZ are you going to sit a driving test?? i seriusly doubt anybody in this tread will.
yet there are at least one minor different rule on the road that will lead to a bit off confusion, yet nobody ever told you.
try on a strait road to turn left while oposite traffic on the same road wants to turn right into the same road. get my drift?? different give away rules in the 2 countries. but that is not going to make you all off a sudden a les profesional car driver now is it. just because you didnt know.
I am going to be a proffesional bloke and join mid down wind from now on.
I am willing to learn and to better, but i get the impression that there are some people on here that think they already no everything there is to know about aviation.
I bet you that very little if any guy/girl who comes over from ozzie to nz to fly would pick up a law book and studie it from back to front just incase there was a small difference somewere in the rules.
They licence cross over is a paper exercise at a casa office, for me i just wrongly asumed that the rules would be the same.
but there you go, one should never asume hey
cheers
Join Date: Sep 2006
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'gadude' some points you make re going to a diff country to fly you wouldn't read the rulebook for every possible change is most likely true to some degree few would study the different rules entirely. BUT when it comes to circuit requirements (of which this thread is mainly all about) I think you will find it would not only be dangerous but very poor airmanship no to know the particular countries proceedures in this very important & at times risky environment, the circuit.
.................... but i get the impression that there are some people on here that think they already no everything there is to know about aviation. ........'gadude' it's a professional pilots job to know everything & if he doesn't he learns, saying as much above isn't a part of making excuses not to learn.
Like I mentioned earlier in here who's teaching these pilots to do as THEY think is best?
We know, now you know & hopefully everbody else less educated now knows that you DO NOT join base (in VMC) for a circuit here in OZ.
CW
.................... but i get the impression that there are some people on here that think they already no everything there is to know about aviation. ........'gadude' it's a professional pilots job to know everything & if he doesn't he learns, saying as much above isn't a part of making excuses not to learn.
Like I mentioned earlier in here who's teaching these pilots to do as THEY think is best?
We know, now you know & hopefully everbody else less educated now knows that you DO NOT join base (in VMC) for a circuit here in OZ.
CW
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Capt wally, I will be good from now on
In your statement that we as profesional pilots do need to know everything i agree to a point. but not entirely. Law wise yes.
but there is plenty to learn in aviation as we go.
personaly i learn every flight I do. And I am sure that won't change anytime soon. I learn still everyday on how my plane performs in different temps winds and terain etc.
I used to load on agwork for an old fella who clocked up 30000 hours in his career, he said "the day i dont think i will learn more when i am flying is the day i wil resign and go fishing."
He did end up going fishing after a non aviation silly accident put him out off flying. I would like to ad, maybe not so relevant to this post bit still a valueble lessen he repeated day in day out. and still when i talk to him.
"never rush, and when you are new in a job or new aircraft give yourself plenty off room and take your time"
Maybe this statement is less relevant in IF flying when controll tells you what to do i am not sure as i dont hold an IF rating. it sure counts for VFR specialy for low level ops off any kind.
Cheers
In your statement that we as profesional pilots do need to know everything i agree to a point. but not entirely. Law wise yes.
but there is plenty to learn in aviation as we go.
personaly i learn every flight I do. And I am sure that won't change anytime soon. I learn still everyday on how my plane performs in different temps winds and terain etc.
I used to load on agwork for an old fella who clocked up 30000 hours in his career, he said "the day i dont think i will learn more when i am flying is the day i wil resign and go fishing."
He did end up going fishing after a non aviation silly accident put him out off flying. I would like to ad, maybe not so relevant to this post bit still a valueble lessen he repeated day in day out. and still when i talk to him.
"never rush, and when you are new in a job or new aircraft give yourself plenty off room and take your time"
Maybe this statement is less relevant in IF flying when controll tells you what to do i am not sure as i dont hold an IF rating. it sure counts for VFR specialy for low level ops off any kind.
Cheers
Join Date: May 2008
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"IF you were to go to New Zealand would you still fly 3 legs of the circuit and tell anyone that is joining base they are dangerous, and if so, what would be your reasoning?"
Put your Iceman helmet on then Transmit!
ABC, YOU GUYS ARE DANGEROUS! I'M TOO CLOSE FOR MISSILES I'M SWITCHING TO GUNS! YOU GUYS ARE DANGEROUS!
300
Put your Iceman helmet on then Transmit!
ABC, YOU GUYS ARE DANGEROUS! I'M TOO CLOSE FOR MISSILES I'M SWITCHING TO GUNS! YOU GUYS ARE DANGEROUS!
300
Join Date: Apr 2006
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In the time i spent flying out of derby, there was never a traffic problem that couldnt be sorted out over the radio. And that was with the Eagle boys, the bushflight guys and the broome av blokes all flying into the same place. Never had a problem.
And can anyone help me out with the reference to the section forbidding a circuit join on base.
I've found AIP ENR 1.1 - 86 (64.5.1) but that doesn't say joining the circuit on base is illegal, but only recommends ways of joining the circuit.
"Entry to the circuit depends upon the direction of arrival and traffic conditions. The recommended methods for entering the circuit are as follows:"
And for the record, it doesnt recommend a straight in approach, which we all know is legal. So just because it doesnt recommend it, doenst mean its illegal.
And can anyone help me out with the reference to the section forbidding a circuit join on base.
I've found AIP ENR 1.1 - 86 (64.5.1) but that doesn't say joining the circuit on base is illegal, but only recommends ways of joining the circuit.
"Entry to the circuit depends upon the direction of arrival and traffic conditions. The recommended methods for entering the circuit are as follows:"
And for the record, it doesnt recommend a straight in approach, which we all know is legal. So just because it doesnt recommend it, doenst mean its illegal.
Last edited by avi8ar; 29th Oct 2008 at 02:59.
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avi8ar, thats interesting but i do think that capt wally would have his grounds covered, meaning (not being disresectfull nor trying to take the p#ss) that there is quiete likely a law that das tell us to fly 3 legs off the circuit.
also a question for the more experienced ppruners, How do you start a new tread???
i was thinking off a tread regarding the difference in NZ and Ozzie law and any other thing we can come up with, to benefit those who will go cross tasman.
the likes off not joining base in aussie, the flying odd numbers plus 500 and even and 500 going east west headings vs the same in NZ going north south etc.
and the read back to ATC including the QNH in NZ were in OZ all you tell m that you have info delta or what ever it might be.
cheers
also a question for the more experienced ppruners, How do you start a new tread???
i was thinking off a tread regarding the difference in NZ and Ozzie law and any other thing we can come up with, to benefit those who will go cross tasman.
the likes off not joining base in aussie, the flying odd numbers plus 500 and even and 500 going east west headings vs the same in NZ going north south etc.
and the read back to ATC including the QNH in NZ were in OZ all you tell m that you have info delta or what ever it might be.
cheers
gadude,
No offence was intended, my post was more directed at those who think that they know better, and knowingly ignore the rule.
Apologies if it came across the wrong way towards you.
Normally, for conversion to Oz you have to pass an Air Law exam, but not if you come via the TTMRA. I believe our VMC rules are different to NZ as well.
avi8ar - I'm pretty sure there's a rule along the lines of "an aircraft must fly at least 3 legs of the circuit" then a separate rule later on saying "an exception is if ... (rules RE straight in)" You are right in that the AIP (for the record I use Jepps, so there may some difference in the wording) does not specifically say base joins are illegal. It does say you must fly 3 legs of the circuit, except when following the straight in procedure. 3 legs = downwind, base and final. I haven't looked the rule up too recently though, so I could be wrong, but Wally seems to have the same idea as me.
No offence was intended, my post was more directed at those who think that they know better, and knowingly ignore the rule.
Apologies if it came across the wrong way towards you. Normally, for conversion to Oz you have to pass an Air Law exam, but not if you come via the TTMRA. I believe our VMC rules are different to NZ as well.avi8ar - I'm pretty sure there's a rule along the lines of "an aircraft must fly at least 3 legs of the circuit" then a separate rule later on saying "an exception is if ... (rules RE straight in)" You are right in that the AIP (for the record I use Jepps, so there may some difference in the wording) does not specifically say base joins are illegal. It does say you must fly 3 legs of the circuit, except when following the straight in procedure. 3 legs = downwind, base and final. I haven't looked the rule up too recently though, so I could be wrong, but Wally seems to have the same idea as me.
http://www.casa.gov.au/download/act_regs/1988.pdf
166 Operating in vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome
(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft that is being operated in the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome must:
(a) maintain a look-out for other aerodrome traffic to avoid collision; and
(b) ensure that the aircraft does not cause a danger to other aircraft in the vicinity of the aerodrome; and
(c) conform with, or avoid, the circuit pattern; and
(d) unless subregulation (3) or (4) applies — when approaching the aerodrome to land, join the circuit pattern for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken on the upwind, crosswind or downwind leg; and
Note A circuit pattern has upwind, cross-wind, down-wind, base and final legs.
(4) The pilot in command of an aircraft may join the circuit pattern at a non-controlled aerodrome on the base leg, for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken, only if:
(a) CASA has given approval to do so; and
(b) details of the approval have been published in AIP.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
166 Operating in vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome
(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft that is being operated in the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome must:
(a) maintain a look-out for other aerodrome traffic to avoid collision; and
(b) ensure that the aircraft does not cause a danger to other aircraft in the vicinity of the aerodrome; and
(c) conform with, or avoid, the circuit pattern; and
(d) unless subregulation (3) or (4) applies — when approaching the aerodrome to land, join the circuit pattern for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken on the upwind, crosswind or downwind leg; and
Note A circuit pattern has upwind, cross-wind, down-wind, base and final legs.
(4) The pilot in command of an aircraft may join the circuit pattern at a non-controlled aerodrome on the base leg, for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken, only if:
(a) CASA has given approval to do so; and
(b) details of the approval have been published in AIP.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
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Tnxs 'sector 3' for that.
I don't think it's needed to be shown that 3 legs are required to join a circuit(unless the other known rues apply) it's common knowledge that it's so or should be. From the first day I was taught to fly & the subsequent 30 yrs that has followed I at least join downwind & seeing as I have been checked by numerous person along they way by CASA & all their previous names etc ALL have expected this to be the case.
I hear/see the airlines doing at least a downwind join where practicable at non controlled AD's & if it where allowed I would bet my last dollar that these guys would be joining base where possible to save time/money, they don't so regs or nor regs that's good enough for me
CW
I don't think it's needed to be shown that 3 legs are required to join a circuit(unless the other known rues apply) it's common knowledge that it's so or should be. From the first day I was taught to fly & the subsequent 30 yrs that has followed I at least join downwind & seeing as I have been checked by numerous person along they way by CASA & all their previous names etc ALL have expected this to be the case.
I hear/see the airlines doing at least a downwind join where practicable at non controlled AD's & if it where allowed I would bet my last dollar that these guys would be joining base where possible to save time/money, they don't so regs or nor regs that's good enough for me
CW
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Thanks for those last 2 post, that cleared a few things up in my mind anyway,.
Capt wally, again not to take the mickey OR being disrespectfull, apart from it being law, why would it be saver to join down wind rather than base when we do comunicate?? why would it be more dangerous to join base in aussie while it is alowed in NZ?
Please dont give me the "because it is unprofesional etc" because thats not what i am after, we already establised that.
If i am joining down wind i will still have to keep my eyes and ears open as to were to slot in.
I am happy that it is the law now, and will follow it, but i also like to know WHY.
cheers and tanks in advance
Capt wally, again not to take the mickey OR being disrespectfull, apart from it being law, why would it be saver to join down wind rather than base when we do comunicate?? why would it be more dangerous to join base in aussie while it is alowed in NZ?
Please dont give me the "because it is unprofesional etc" because thats not what i am after, we already establised that.
If i am joining down wind i will still have to keep my eyes and ears open as to were to slot in.
I am happy that it is the law now, and will follow it, but i also like to know WHY.
cheers and tanks in advance
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the rules for driving used to say that .08 was fine to drive and seatbelts weren't required....
laws change, people change, situations change.. common sense SHOULD prevail... if I can make the situation safer and easier for everyone involved then I will join base any day..
just to be politically correct though lets broadcast it as late downwind turning base etc just in case the jepps reciters have the recorder on eh !!
laws change, people change, situations change.. common sense SHOULD prevail... if I can make the situation safer and easier for everyone involved then I will join base any day..
just to be politically correct though lets broadcast it as late downwind turning base etc just in case the jepps reciters have the recorder on eh !!
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Get over it
It seems you guys love having arguments about this 3 legs of the circuit business for fu*k sake get over it move on. Once again some one wants to know info about a company and then an argument starts about circuits,radiocalls ect.
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Take it easy,we did move on. last post was 6 off november And the jobs were covered. Old mate is probleby moved on into twins by now and well on his way into airlines.
Things move fast in aussie lol
Cheers
And the jobs were covered. Old mate is probleby moved on into twins by now and well on his way into airlines. Things move fast in aussie lol
Cheers
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Gadude, just in case that last question you asked was unresolved, it seems pretty obvious that joining downwind = more time in the circuit = greater situational awareness = safety = everyone gets to go home at the end of the day. Now that's professional
toronto_flyer
toronto_flyer
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and more time in the circuit equals more time in a the airspace with the highest traffic density. Think about it - flying three full legs of the circuit probably doubles the amount of time in the circuit compared to an aircraft joining on a base leg. Using that assumption, if adding an extra leg to the circuit does not halve the collision risk per second for the entire flight time in the circuit it has to be counter productive to safety.
I would be very interested to see an objective study on the actual risks of various circuit joining procedures. And I would suggest that if such a study was conducted the risks would be found to be very different in a circuit which has mainly arrivals / departures compared to one which has mainly circuit traffic.
I would be very interested to see an objective study on the actual risks of various circuit joining procedures. And I would suggest that if such a study was conducted the risks would be found to be very different in a circuit which has mainly arrivals / departures compared to one which has mainly circuit traffic.
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Well one could do a study comparing NZ circuits incidents vs aussie circuits incidents. In NZ one can join on base.
The Law is Law so we have to fly by them, but I still can't see why joining base is more dangerous than joining downwind.
the point about having more situational awareness because you spent more time in the circuit is a little funny,
If you need to joing downwind and are flying down wind to make it safer because now you can sort your self and the rest off the circuit out, than what have you been doing on your aproach?
I can imagen that everyone else, just like me, makes a mental picture off whats going on way before you get to the circuit. You talk to others etc.
And so we continue the circuit discussion
For me, I fly now 3 legs, for a number off reasons. Its proffesional (in aussie that is) it's the law, and it keeps capt wally very happy
The Law is Law so we have to fly by them, but I still can't see why joining base is more dangerous than joining downwind.
the point about having more situational awareness because you spent more time in the circuit is a little funny,
If you need to joing downwind and are flying down wind to make it safer because now you can sort your self and the rest off the circuit out, than what have you been doing on your aproach?
I can imagen that everyone else, just like me, makes a mental picture off whats going on way before you get to the circuit. You talk to others etc.
And so we continue the circuit discussion
For me, I fly now 3 legs, for a number off reasons. Its proffesional (in aussie that is) it's the law, and it keeps capt wally very happy
