VAus - New "EBA"
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VH-YES
Vaus pilots coming to VB for upgrades? How's it going to work as VB has an excess of about 50 FOs. There are heaps of VB guys sitting around doing nothing for months on end. I know the current situation wont last forever but I wouldn't bank on that arrangement happening as nobody at VB seems to know anything about it (I hear that includes managers).
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Hey boys and girls............. no airframes! Anybody foget that???? Did any of you see my posts in the 777 thread complete with pics from THE FRONTLINE.
The first VA 777 is mothballed at present with no galleys and other interior fitout possibly, its sealed shut till after the strike.....EOM
J
The first VA 777 is mothballed at present with no galleys and other interior fitout possibly, its sealed shut till after the strike.....EOM
J
Simply one case in point, and agree Jabba'
Also...
Not enough pilots, sh!tty industrial agreement, Global economic crisis, prospective market quickly evaporating, parent company not doing so well...
Hope not too many have resigned from their previous jobs yet?
Yap, Yap...
Also...
Not enough pilots, sh!tty industrial agreement, Global economic crisis, prospective market quickly evaporating, parent company not doing so well...
Hope not too many have resigned from their previous jobs yet?
Yap, Yap...
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Well for a bunch of experienced professional pilots one might have mistaken the the last page as a high school chat room, For example KRUSTY to refer to your industry colleague as a caged animal does your credibility no justice , and that's just to name one derogatory remark , well done !
BUZZY you seem to derive some pleasure from insulting people with remarks like Moron and worse , you know thats a good sign that you may have some issues you need to address , as an adult we need to learn that using words to cut someone down does not make you a better person no matter where you work.
SNAP did exactly that again and some result of all this banter ---NOTHING-----
except that----- congrats you feel pumped up by your own self righteousness.
Our industry is in a steady decline and all we can do is line up our mates and pull the trigger accelerating the downward spiral to the bottom. You may feel resentment towards the Vaus pilots for excepting this but in the end of the day its still going to happen in some form or another and all your criticism will accomplish zero. How about actually providing some positive input in how to address these issues and maybe just maybe your fellow aviator might take on your SAGE ADVICE and make a difference in their situation.In turn this may have a flow on effect though out the industry. I can assure you that at the moment all you are doing is isolating each other , DIVIDED WE FALL comes to mind.I admit i dont have all the answers but im sure their is a mountain of knowledge out there from you guys that have had to fight to turn this fundamental shift around and had some success , That is the kind of input this discussion needs not just a lot of pilots throwing dirt.
BUZZY you seem to derive some pleasure from insulting people with remarks like Moron and worse , you know thats a good sign that you may have some issues you need to address , as an adult we need to learn that using words to cut someone down does not make you a better person no matter where you work.
SNAP did exactly that again and some result of all this banter ---NOTHING-----
except that----- congrats you feel pumped up by your own self righteousness.
Our industry is in a steady decline and all we can do is line up our mates and pull the trigger accelerating the downward spiral to the bottom. You may feel resentment towards the Vaus pilots for excepting this but in the end of the day its still going to happen in some form or another and all your criticism will accomplish zero. How about actually providing some positive input in how to address these issues and maybe just maybe your fellow aviator might take on your SAGE ADVICE and make a difference in their situation.In turn this may have a flow on effect though out the industry. I can assure you that at the moment all you are doing is isolating each other , DIVIDED WE FALL comes to mind.I admit i dont have all the answers but im sure their is a mountain of knowledge out there from you guys that have had to fight to turn this fundamental shift around and had some success , That is the kind of input this discussion needs not just a lot of pilots throwing dirt.
Seriously, there is a lot of rant on here about respecting each other as fellow professionals, but I can see why we don't.
The question I have for anyone who has taken a job at V is this:
How many people do you know, from other professions, who would accept a job, without knowing their employment conditions?
I can't think of any!
As a result I have no sympathy for anyone that works for this mob and ends up less than happy.
Maybe the Psyche testing is simply looking for optimists...........
The question I have for anyone who has taken a job at V is this:
How many people do you know, from other professions, who would accept a job, without knowing their employment conditions?
I can't think of any!
As a result I have no sympathy for anyone that works for this mob and ends up less than happy.
Maybe the Psyche testing is simply looking for optimists...........
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Rumour on the streets is that since the launch of this agreement debacle and the attempt to remove any effective voting power from the Pilots, all the Captains bar one have been offered a you can start on Monday type job with Emirates.
I can not for the life of me understand why anyone would accept a position with this organsition, unless you are on a Captains salary, irrespective of experience levels, how do you intend on living ?, you know, food power, accom and fuel for the car ?.
If combining the agreements is such a good idea, how about Pilots, Cabin Crew, Executives, Operations, Admin and HR all go on the same agreement, see how they like them apples.
Don't worry Krusty, I'm lower on this food chain than you, as I'm only a grubby little well paid "single" engine turboprop pilot, I feel embarassed just showing my face in public........wow I might rub shoulders with a jet pilot on this thread.
I can not for the life of me understand why anyone would accept a position with this organsition, unless you are on a Captains salary, irrespective of experience levels, how do you intend on living ?, you know, food power, accom and fuel for the car ?.
If combining the agreements is such a good idea, how about Pilots, Cabin Crew, Executives, Operations, Admin and HR all go on the same agreement, see how they like them apples.
Don't worry Krusty, I'm lower on this food chain than you, as I'm only a grubby little well paid "single" engine turboprop pilot, I feel embarassed just showing my face in public........wow I might rub shoulders with a jet pilot on this thread.
Last edited by Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower; 2nd Oct 2008 at 04:58.
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Thread has detriorated
This thread has now really detriorated into a mud slinging match. This was not the intent. Perhaps the personal insults should be sent on PMs that way we don't have to wade through drivel trying to find information relevant to the post.
Does anyone know what has transpired with the newly proposed VA work agreement. I believe the company was holding "roadshows" to try and sell it to the pilots.
I hope that the pilot group made it clear that they are a specialist group and cannot be grouped with the cabin crew when agreeing working conditions for pilots. Are they still proposing a 5 year agreement?
With the delay in aircraft is the company going to make use of the "stand down" clause in their proposed agreement.
Has AFAP managed to make some inroads here.
With the delay in aircraft is the company going to make use of the "stand down" clause in their proposed agreement.
Has AFAP managed to make some inroads here.
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Fair dinkum. Some of you lot carry on like a bunch of schoolkids!
If you have nothing PRODUCTIVE to offer this thread, kindly refrain from clicking the submit button.
Alternatively, take it to Jetblast.
If you have nothing PRODUCTIVE to offer this thread, kindly refrain from clicking the submit button.
Alternatively, take it to Jetblast.
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VOZ eba
The facts. A copy of the proposal can be downloaded here.Download link: RapidShare: Easy Filehosting
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Cabin Crew are with you guys!
Just to let you know that the Cabin Crew in the first few groups who are also being asked to sign this agreement also are generally, very experienced, mature crew from a wide range of airlines who know the type of conditions they should be being offered and are not.
They also agree that pilots and cabin crew should most definitely be on separate agreements.
Guys, we need to all stick together on this one and vote NO! We need to bring the company to the table and negotiate better conditions for both the pilot and cabin crew groups alike!
Good luck!
They also agree that pilots and cabin crew should most definitely be on separate agreements.
Guys, we need to all stick together on this one and vote NO! We need to bring the company to the table and negotiate better conditions for both the pilot and cabin crew groups alike!
Good luck!
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Good luck and stick together
Well said dbxgirl. No matter the reason each pilot has to join VA the bottom line is that they are all good guys and deserve to be treated fairly by the company.
Having read the "agreement" as posted by Knowall (thanks for that) one can only hope that the pilots as a group refuse to sign the agreement and suggest that the company negotiate through AFAP. As pilots we are not really educated on how to deal with management. Management will have taken advice from professional HR people and legal eagles who work with labour issues. The pilots should at the very least do the same in order to protect themselves.
Trying to negotiate with the company who is taking professional advice and trying only to protect its own interests would not be the brightest thing to do.
For the company to try and put the cabin crew and pilots in one group would not be good for either of these groups.
Guys and girls - from us who have been there before and are fortunate to have survived the management onslaught - good luck and stick it out, there are some of us who think that VA has a great future (when it gets off the ground) we just did not have the "b&*ls" to take the risk.
Having read the "agreement" as posted by Knowall (thanks for that) one can only hope that the pilots as a group refuse to sign the agreement and suggest that the company negotiate through AFAP. As pilots we are not really educated on how to deal with management. Management will have taken advice from professional HR people and legal eagles who work with labour issues. The pilots should at the very least do the same in order to protect themselves.
Trying to negotiate with the company who is taking professional advice and trying only to protect its own interests would not be the brightest thing to do.
For the company to try and put the cabin crew and pilots in one group would not be good for either of these groups.
Guys and girls - from us who have been there before and are fortunate to have survived the management onslaught - good luck and stick it out, there are some of us who think that VA has a great future (when it gets off the ground) we just did not have the "b&*ls" to take the risk.
Now before anyone flies off the handle, (certainly been enough of that already) What exactly are we talking about here?
Gotwings' and dbxgirl', well said posts. The question I have however is what exactly is the situation with the VA "agreement"? Are VA management inviting the Flight attendant and Pilots groups to vote on a proposal before the company has even commenced operations. Normally if a new agreement fails at the vote, the terms and conditions of the previous agreement apply untill such time the new proposal can be negotiated to a satisfactory conclusion. Is there a previous agreement? Was there in fact a negotiation process at all.
I ask this because it seems strange that even before commencement of operations, and I am assuming with a group of voters somewhat less in number than what the workforce will eventually become, being asked to vote on a proposal that will affect the working conditions into the future of the majority of VA crew that haven't even been employed yet.
Can anyone else see the problem with this?
Quote:
"there are some of us who think that VA has a great future (when it gets off the ground) we just did not have the "b&*ls" to take the risk."
Couldn't agree more Gotwings', but is the (b&*ls) you are talking about, voting down this latest proposal, or actually accepting the T&C's in the first place?
Gotwings' and dbxgirl', well said posts. The question I have however is what exactly is the situation with the VA "agreement"? Are VA management inviting the Flight attendant and Pilots groups to vote on a proposal before the company has even commenced operations. Normally if a new agreement fails at the vote, the terms and conditions of the previous agreement apply untill such time the new proposal can be negotiated to a satisfactory conclusion. Is there a previous agreement? Was there in fact a negotiation process at all.
I ask this because it seems strange that even before commencement of operations, and I am assuming with a group of voters somewhat less in number than what the workforce will eventually become, being asked to vote on a proposal that will affect the working conditions into the future of the majority of VA crew that haven't even been employed yet.
Can anyone else see the problem with this?
Quote:
"there are some of us who think that VA has a great future (when it gets off the ground) we just did not have the "b&*ls" to take the risk."
Couldn't agree more Gotwings', but is the (b&*ls) you are talking about, voting down this latest proposal, or actually accepting the T&C's in the first place?
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 5th Oct 2008 at 19:31.
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Krusty
No, I cant.
Can you not see the heavy paradox in the arguments you have put forward in this thread?
On the one hand you've got stuck in made your feelings known about the VA contract and (by implication) the crew who have signed up, but then on the other hand, (which for some reason you didnt bother to explain) you think it might be better that they dont try and improve their situation for the sake of those that may or may not follow them into VA.
What a load of twaddle.
If I extend your logic one step further, would you agree that your own EBA should be rolled over on the same pay and conditions because the crew who arent employed yet arent able to vote? Of course not.
Do us all a favour mate. Turn your computer off for a while.
Can you not see the heavy paradox in the arguments you have put forward in this thread?
On the one hand you've got stuck in made your feelings known about the VA contract and (by implication) the crew who have signed up, but then on the other hand, (which for some reason you didnt bother to explain) you think it might be better that they dont try and improve their situation for the sake of those that may or may not follow them into VA.
What a load of twaddle.
If I extend your logic one step further, would you agree that your own EBA should be rolled over on the same pay and conditions because the crew who arent employed yet arent able to vote? Of course not.
Do us all a favour mate. Turn your computer off for a while.
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Ditto waren9.......bout time to put up or shut up. I'm sure his wife and kids are happy about the length of wasted time spent ranting on pprune about a job he has no interest (apparently) on applying for
Thanks waren9, I'll take it under advicement!
Quote:
"I'm sure his wife and kids are happy about the length of wasted time spent ranting on pprune..."
Welcome back Sam'.
Getting a little personal aren't we? There are a couple of guys having a go at VA over on the other thread, if you want to go over and sledge them as well!
Quote:
"I'm sure his wife and kids are happy about the length of wasted time spent ranting on pprune..."
Welcome back Sam'.
Getting a little personal aren't we? There are a couple of guys having a go at VA over on the other thread, if you want to go over and sledge them as well!
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No B*#lls
Krusty - Sitting where I am I have mulled over returning to the beautiful place where I was born a grew up (but was unable to get a decent job - read one that paid enough). I looked carefully at what was (actually what was not) on offer by VA and just did not have the "b*#lls" to give up what is curretnly for me and my family a comfort zone.
I have not ruled out applying to VA but I am one of those "back benchers" who will wait for the brave ones to sort out the difficulties before I make a move.
The way I understand it, the VA management have proposed a joint agreement for the cabin crew and pilots. My mates have been told that the individual contract conditions would still apply but that the workplace agreement would also apply - bit of double speak. It appears as though the VA management are trying to avoid having to negotiate with two parties and want to tie both parties to a 5 year agreement which contains no protection for the parties, i.e. no guaranteed process to ensure at least inflation related salary increases / no industrial action / no business class travel / company right to stand you down / company right to contract you to partner airlines / no overtime / no guarantee as to when the roster will be published / maximum hours flying for the basic salary (which is not worth writing home about) / allowances which can be replaced by meals .....................
Me thinks that VA management have realised that the conditions that they have employed their pilots under is far from acceptable and they know that once enough guys / girls have been employed they are likely to form a group and appoaching AFAP to start lobbying for a collective agreement which improves these conditions. They are desperately trying to avoid this. They think that bullying the pilots (or forcing them by including them in a group with the cabin staff) into this proposed "collective agreement" will give them a 5 year breathing space.
As I said I have followed this as closely as I can as I really would be interested applying to VA in the future (ET go home). It is a great piece of equipment to fly and the aircraft looks great (pity that the uniform will be so dull) / it sounds as if the guys there are really nice people (even heard some very good things about some of the management guys) / the training seems to be good (they certainly chose some top trainers) / the commuting seems to work / the salaries are liveable (especially if you have been earning good money and managed it for a few years before joining VA) / and who can fault living in Aus.
Hang in there guys / girls. Use the expertise of AFAP and don't go it alone. Don't buckle - they need you as much as you need the job.
I have not ruled out applying to VA but I am one of those "back benchers" who will wait for the brave ones to sort out the difficulties before I make a move.
The way I understand it, the VA management have proposed a joint agreement for the cabin crew and pilots. My mates have been told that the individual contract conditions would still apply but that the workplace agreement would also apply - bit of double speak. It appears as though the VA management are trying to avoid having to negotiate with two parties and want to tie both parties to a 5 year agreement which contains no protection for the parties, i.e. no guaranteed process to ensure at least inflation related salary increases / no industrial action / no business class travel / company right to stand you down / company right to contract you to partner airlines / no overtime / no guarantee as to when the roster will be published / maximum hours flying for the basic salary (which is not worth writing home about) / allowances which can be replaced by meals .....................
Me thinks that VA management have realised that the conditions that they have employed their pilots under is far from acceptable and they know that once enough guys / girls have been employed they are likely to form a group and appoaching AFAP to start lobbying for a collective agreement which improves these conditions. They are desperately trying to avoid this. They think that bullying the pilots (or forcing them by including them in a group with the cabin staff) into this proposed "collective agreement" will give them a 5 year breathing space.
As I said I have followed this as closely as I can as I really would be interested applying to VA in the future (ET go home). It is a great piece of equipment to fly and the aircraft looks great (pity that the uniform will be so dull) / it sounds as if the guys there are really nice people (even heard some very good things about some of the management guys) / the training seems to be good (they certainly chose some top trainers) / the commuting seems to work / the salaries are liveable (especially if you have been earning good money and managed it for a few years before joining VA) / and who can fault living in Aus.
Hang in there guys / girls. Use the expertise of AFAP and don't go it alone. Don't buckle - they need you as much as you need the job.
Thanks for the honest and civil reply gotwings'.
My original question was borne out of confusion as to exactly what VA were trying to do with regard to an industrial agreement, that wasn't really an agreement. You have answered my question nicely, and I'm affraid serves to highlight the lack of good faith in which VA are approaching their prospective staff.
I honestly hope you are able to come back. From where I sit you have more B*#lls than some others who have posted hear. Your decision to consider you and your family's future is truely commendable.
Regards,
Krusty.
My original question was borne out of confusion as to exactly what VA were trying to do with regard to an industrial agreement, that wasn't really an agreement. You have answered my question nicely, and I'm affraid serves to highlight the lack of good faith in which VA are approaching their prospective staff.
I honestly hope you are able to come back. From where I sit you have more B*#lls than some others who have posted hear. Your decision to consider you and your family's future is truely commendable.
Regards,
Krusty.
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 7th Oct 2008 at 20:49.