PPL scenic flights and advertising
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PPL scenic flights and advertising
Here's the situation: I am doing irregular joy flights as a PPL in my own aeroplane, sometimes I take friends along, and usually I don't charge them for it, trying to be a nice guy spreading the enthusiasm about aviation 
As a PPL I know I cannot charge more than a passenger's share of the cost of the flight, with me paying my share of course. Here's where the uncertainty begins: Could I theoretically charge what I have calculated the total cost of operation to be, i.e. actual fuel & oil plus share of expected maintenance (hourly engine reserve, 100 hourly, incidentals based on experience)? Would CASA accept my calculations if they weren't obviously blown out of proportion?
Then how far could I legally go spreading the word that I do these flights and don't mind company? Is word of mouth where it ends, or could I push it to putting up a note on the board at my local supermarket or backpacker's?
I appreciate this is a bit of a grey area, I just want to see if I can pick the brains of experienced pilots and operators in the industry who have been there before and can provide a few do's and do not's..
If anyone can point me to previous threads on this topic I'd be thankful. I've tried searching, but couldn't really turn up anything relevant.
As a PPL I know I cannot charge more than a passenger's share of the cost of the flight, with me paying my share of course. Here's where the uncertainty begins: Could I theoretically charge what I have calculated the total cost of operation to be, i.e. actual fuel & oil plus share of expected maintenance (hourly engine reserve, 100 hourly, incidentals based on experience)? Would CASA accept my calculations if they weren't obviously blown out of proportion?
Then how far could I legally go spreading the word that I do these flights and don't mind company? Is word of mouth where it ends, or could I push it to putting up a note on the board at my local supermarket or backpacker's?
I appreciate this is a bit of a grey area, I just want to see if I can pick the brains of experienced pilots and operators in the industry who have been there before and can provide a few do's and do not's..
If anyone can point me to previous threads on this topic I'd be thankful. I've tried searching, but couldn't really turn up anything relevant.
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This sounds suspicously like a disguised Barry Hempel thread.
You would be able to calculate costs as the owner and provided that they are reasonable, then that would be ok. Keep in mind that for your average 4 seater you'd be talking over $100 per hour to be realistic so you would need to be charging the appropriate amount on paper. I have the same issue with my aircraft.
A notice board at the local supermarket would be commercial. If you were staying in the backpackers and met the foreigners as friends, then that would be ok.
An email to your workmates would not be.
A notice up at your employer would be a slightly grey area, but probably legal, especially if private behind closed doors.
It's all about what your lawyers tell in your defence, so when you get caught, lawyer up straight away.
The alternate solution would be to obtain a PPL and an AOC like everyone else that wants to be a flying ace / legend.
You would be able to calculate costs as the owner and provided that they are reasonable, then that would be ok. Keep in mind that for your average 4 seater you'd be talking over $100 per hour to be realistic so you would need to be charging the appropriate amount on paper. I have the same issue with my aircraft.
A notice board at the local supermarket would be commercial. If you were staying in the backpackers and met the foreigners as friends, then that would be ok.
An email to your workmates would not be.
A notice up at your employer would be a slightly grey area, but probably legal, especially if private behind closed doors.
It's all about what your lawyers tell in your defence, so when you get caught, lawyer up straight away.
The alternate solution would be to obtain a PPL and an AOC like everyone else that wants to be a flying ace / legend.
Sell them a map of where you are going flying, then throw in a free joy flight.
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I think the moment you advertise anywhere you are asking for the Bold Gendarmes to come down on your head. They are in the business of reinterpreting rules then using our own money to drag us into court on frivilous charges. Having said that, there is also no point in poking them to see if they wobble.
There are a million ways around the covering costs of private flights; provided you don't go out of your way to see how far the rules will bend you'll be right. I once took a couple of mates for a free joyride then sold them an old football for $200. The point is that there was no intent to make money from the trip.
If you start advertising with the intent of making money and putting your own spin on the regs as a defense, then you're probably going to get in serious strife.
My thoughts only.
Walrus
There are a million ways around the covering costs of private flights; provided you don't go out of your way to see how far the rules will bend you'll be right. I once took a couple of mates for a free joyride then sold them an old football for $200. The point is that there was no intent to make money from the trip.
If you start advertising with the intent of making money and putting your own spin on the regs as a defense, then you're probably going to get in serious strife.
My thoughts only.
Walrus
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Thanks for the replies, guys, keep 'em coming
Just to clarify, I am not looking to make money in any way whatsoever, the intent is mainly to fill the empty seats when I go flying for fun, i.e. it's a pure cost covering exercise in the sense of the regs, and if I ended up flying a bit more with part of the cost for this kind of hour building covered, I wouldn't be too sad
I heard one doesn't need an AOC for joy flights, is that myth or reality? My CPL isn't too far off hopefully (those pesky exams
), I obviously don't want to rack up a record with CASA before I go for my first interview 
Just to clarify, I am not looking to make money in any way whatsoever, the intent is mainly to fill the empty seats when I go flying for fun, i.e. it's a pure cost covering exercise in the sense of the regs, and if I ended up flying a bit more with part of the cost for this kind of hour building covered, I wouldn't be too sad
I heard one doesn't need an AOC for joy flights, is that myth or reality? My CPL isn't too far off hopefully (those pesky exams
), I obviously don't want to rack up a record with CASA before I go for my first interview
Moderator
"...or could I push it to putting up a note on the board at my local supermarket or backpacker's?"
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 210
Restriction of advertising of commercial operations
(1) A person must not give a public notice, by newspaper advertisement, broadcast statement or any other means of public announcement, to the effect that a person is willing to undertake by use of an Australian aircraft any commercial operations if the last mentioned person has not obtained an Air Operator's Certificate authorising the conduct of those operations.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability , see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code .
Restriction of advertising of commercial operations
(1) A person must not give a public notice, by newspaper advertisement, broadcast statement or any other means of public announcement, to the effect that a person is willing to undertake by use of an Australian aircraft any commercial operations if the last mentioned person has not obtained an Air Operator's Certificate authorising the conduct of those operations.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability , see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code .
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I heard one doesn't need an AOC for joy flights
You don't need an AOC for joy flights, if by joy flight you mean taking friends up in your privately owned plane. As soon as you start advertising and charging, it's a commercial op.
Regardless of whether there is a loophole in the regs, you should consider the ethics of what you propose. Even if you don't make money from it as a pilot, a paying passenger who has been promised a service via advertising is entitled to regulatory oversight for their protection and safety. The regulator achieves this by issuing an AOC and certifying pilots to commercial standard. If you have not demonstrated those standards, then is it appropriate for you to offer a service?
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Definition of Commercial (one of) - engaged in transporting passengers or goods for profit.
So interpreting the regs one cannot advertise for commercial ops without an AOC.
Can one advertise for non commercial op? Which is what this private op is. I.E. Joy Flight to XXX non revenue flight just help pilot pay costs of $XXX per person. Legal? Illiegal?
Its not so much about the regs it about who is interpresting the regs at the time, that is the point I am trying to make above.
Ah yes the old sell some fruit for a flight, if memory is correct Reg Ansett did this when he was having problems with the authorities way back when!
So interpreting the regs one cannot advertise for commercial ops without an AOC.
Can one advertise for non commercial op? Which is what this private op is. I.E. Joy Flight to XXX non revenue flight just help pilot pay costs of $XXX per person. Legal? Illiegal?
Its not so much about the regs it about who is interpresting the regs at the time, that is the point I am trying to make above.
Ah yes the old sell some fruit for a flight, if memory is correct Reg Ansett did this when he was having problems with the authorities way back when!
I heard a PPL holder got in strife for just that. Putting little notices up letting people know he'll be leaving the airport at a give day/time.
Read the regs and you'll be right
Read the regs and you'll be right
Moderator
"....a paying passenger who has been promised a service via advertising is entitled to regulatory oversight for their protection and safety - and adequate and correct liability insurance for commercial flight.
When your insurer discovers you advertised to provide a flight and accepted payment, they will inevitably void your policy, potentially leaving your estate and family penniless.........
Even "cost sharing" is fraught with risk!
Don't even think about it without a CPL and AOC authorising the operation.
When your insurer discovers you advertised to provide a flight and accepted payment, they will inevitably void your policy, potentially leaving your estate and family penniless.........
Even "cost sharing" is fraught with risk!
Don't even think about it without a CPL and AOC authorising the operation.
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flying is not about the money
good advice tailwheel
and before anyone suggests getting cute over the term 'advertised' let me direct your thoughts to numerous judgements in multiple jurisdictions inc., Federal, which clearly determined that 'advertised' & 'publicised' can be as simple as telling another person.
These are tested precedents that would not be overcome easily (there's a whole defo industry reliant on it) and I doubt even the most abstract High Court His Honour would bother entertaining an appellant's application even you got that far.
Baseline, just do the training, get the hours and valuable experience, get certified, and insured.
If you need the $ that badly, hire out the a/c to help pay the bills.
Also refer my father's long standing advice:
"the only people who make money out of aviation are ex-wives"
AT
and before anyone suggests getting cute over the term 'advertised' let me direct your thoughts to numerous judgements in multiple jurisdictions inc., Federal, which clearly determined that 'advertised' & 'publicised' can be as simple as telling another person.
These are tested precedents that would not be overcome easily (there's a whole defo industry reliant on it) and I doubt even the most abstract High Court His Honour would bother entertaining an appellant's application even you got that far.
Baseline, just do the training, get the hours and valuable experience, get certified, and insured.
If you need the $ that badly, hire out the a/c to help pay the bills.
Also refer my father's long standing advice:
"the only people who make money out of aviation are ex-wives"
AT
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Tail wheel, your usual sage advise is noted, but all he needs do is offer a parachute jump along with the flight and all would be OK. If they chose not to use the parachute thats their choice. 
I'm sure you know from whence I come
I'm sure you know from whence I come
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All of this stuff is OK until something goes wrong.
In aviation, there are a million things out to get you and the regs were made to protect all parties the best they can (which is still not very good) when it happens.
When the regs have been bent, and it goes wrong and someone gets hurt, then your troubles will stay with you for a LONG LONG time.
Lawyers will literally dance on your fiscal grave. I've had dealings with events that occured in the early 80's which are still in litigation and several careers (not to mention lives) have been wrecked.
In the end it's simply not worth it. You can cost share with family members but after that you're dealing with unknowns.
Are you prepared to risk paying lawyers for the rest of your life ?
In aviation, there are a million things out to get you and the regs were made to protect all parties the best they can (which is still not very good) when it happens.
When the regs have been bent, and it goes wrong and someone gets hurt, then your troubles will stay with you for a LONG LONG time.
Lawyers will literally dance on your fiscal grave. I've had dealings with events that occured in the early 80's which are still in litigation and several careers (not to mention lives) have been wrecked.
In the end it's simply not worth it. You can cost share with family members but after that you're dealing with unknowns.
Are you prepared to risk paying lawyers for the rest of your life ?
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Can one advertise for non commercial op? Which is what this private op is. I.E. Joy Flight to XXX non revenue flight just help pilot pay costs of $XXX per person. Legal? Illiegal?
CAR210 (and don't forget 262AM) says it all boys and girls.
Do not dance with this particular devil, you will not win.
Moderator
PlankBender suggested "...this is a bit of a grey area...".
There is nothing "grey" about it - I suggest he read the CARs - in black and white!
I actually considered locking the thread as there is simply nothing more to add, but decided against it waiting to hear some "alternate and enlightened interpretation" of the regulations to "justify" commercial operations in a private aircraft, with PPL pilot.
I'm yet to hear one of these schemes which would last more than two minutes in a Court of Law!
There is nothing "grey" about it - I suggest he read the CARs - in black and white!
I actually considered locking the thread as there is simply nothing more to add, but decided against it waiting to hear some "alternate and enlightened interpretation" of the regulations to "justify" commercial operations in a private aircraft, with PPL pilot.
I'm yet to hear one of these schemes which would last more than two minutes in a Court of Law!
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Brian Abraham wrote:
"
I understand that's a tongue in cheek comment, nevertheless....
To do that he'd have to establish a parachute school, with appropriately qualified Chief Instructor, approval from APF, employ a Drop Zone Safety Officer, tandem master, provide a classroom, modify the aircraft with single point restraints and para door, spend $20,000 on a tandem rig, blah blah blah.......woud be easier to get an AOC!
P.S. How do I do a proper quote?
"Tail wheel, your usual sage advise is noted, but all he needs do is offer a parachute jump along with the flight and all would be OK. If they chose not to use the parachute thats their choice. 
I understand that's a tongue in cheek comment, nevertheless....
To do that he'd have to establish a parachute school, with appropriately qualified Chief Instructor, approval from APF, employ a Drop Zone Safety Officer, tandem master, provide a classroom, modify the aircraft with single point restraints and para door, spend $20,000 on a tandem rig, blah blah blah.......woud be easier to get an AOC!
P.S. How do I do a proper quote?
Last edited by tail wheel; 13th Sep 2008 at 08:09.
Was doing a little research the other day on a related topic.
I came across a report on Australasian Legal Information Institute (AustLII) that described an appeal against the suspension of an AOC. The operator had conducted an IFR charter from MER to CB in a C172
The interesting part was the detail that the beak went into when examining the issue of payment received.
He specifically mentioned and dismissed the old trick of "buy an orange from us and we will throw in a scenic flight for free" as a paper-thin fascade and noted "...I do not believe that it was the intention of the Federal Legislature to allow the CARs to be circumvented by such a scheme."
As others have said, you will probably get away with beraking the rules until something goes wrong. Chances are that CASA will be the least of your worries... I would be more worried about the insurer's QCs.
I came across a report on Australasian Legal Information Institute (AustLII) that described an appeal against the suspension of an AOC. The operator had conducted an IFR charter from MER to CB in a C172
The interesting part was the detail that the beak went into when examining the issue of payment received.
He specifically mentioned and dismissed the old trick of "buy an orange from us and we will throw in a scenic flight for free" as a paper-thin fascade and noted "...I do not believe that it was the intention of the Federal Legislature to allow the CARs to be circumvented by such a scheme."
As others have said, you will probably get away with beraking the rules until something goes wrong. Chances are that CASA will be the least of your worries... I would be more worried about the insurer's QCs.