Plane crash at Jamestown S.A.
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I have only just completed my RA licence, with a few extra hours due to nav, when I went flying that day.
My plan was to do a few landings / touch & go, fly to Booleroo and back.
I took off in pretty good conditions with a bit of a cross wind and completed the circt, when I was on final, I had an updraft or two, which is common with a light plane like the Jabi, and I decided that I was to high to land.
I applied full throttle, right rudder, lowered the nose but with a stall warning that just kept going. The plane went up like a chopper and it did a 360 degree turn at a hight of about 50feet before it droped the nose straight down. I did not have all day to think about my next move and all I did was pulling the nose up. It came up a second or so, before I hit the grass strip next to the runway ( not on the runway)
I know that the guys at the club found a few witnesses who saw the same picture as I have just told.
I haven't heard the final outcome of the investigation yet, but they suspect thermal/wirley/windshear.
My instructor, who was handling the media and investigators/insurance and a lot more, suggested that we do it again. May-be from a bit higher up, away from the runway!
I don't know if any one could learn anything from this, as the final answer is not out yet. I would certainly want to know as well!
Regards
P
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The Jab 230/430 in a go around does not easily stall, it GOES around and from what you describe it may well have been a whirley wind. 
A mini or micro tornado is not fun in any light aircraft I imagine. Reminds me of a Cessna on the taxiway in Perth as a Classic 747 enroute to Bombay ...... 747 1 v C172 0, and his Mrs read about it in the paper next day.....him and his mistress on board
.
As they say get back on the horse!
J
A mini or micro tornado is not fun in any light aircraft I imagine. Reminds me of a Cessna on the taxiway in Perth as a Classic 747 enroute to Bombay ...... 747 1 v C172 0, and his Mrs read about it in the paper next day.....him and his mistress on board
.As they say get back on the horse!
J
Lucky, when I saw the pic I thought, "Errrr, someone screwed up big-time there"! You were lucky to survive that - the aeroplane is a mess.
....... but your story puts it in a somewhat different light for me. The 360 degree turn at 50' particularly got my attention.
In 35 years of flying all over Qld I have seen lots of whilly whillies, but have been able to dodge them because the dust they stir up makes them easy to spot. Then ...... a couple of weeks ago, on short final into Dunbar up on Cape York I flew straight through one in the Bonanza - I only saw it a second before I hit it because there was just the faintest whisp of dust at its base. The Bonza is a fair lump of an aeroplane compared to a Jab - but this thing fairly messed with me. For a few seconds the aeroplane was not under control and headed for the ground sideways. A big burst of power and the momentum of the aeroplane took it rapidly through the turbulence and out into clean air. Had I been closer to the ground I may well have featured in my own thread in here.
I can now see how the C172 in WA came to serious grief - and I believe your story!
Beware the whilly whilly - they can bite!
Dr
....... but your story puts it in a somewhat different light for me. The 360 degree turn at 50' particularly got my attention.
In 35 years of flying all over Qld I have seen lots of whilly whillies, but have been able to dodge them because the dust they stir up makes them easy to spot. Then ...... a couple of weeks ago, on short final into Dunbar up on Cape York I flew straight through one in the Bonanza - I only saw it a second before I hit it because there was just the faintest whisp of dust at its base. The Bonza is a fair lump of an aeroplane compared to a Jab - but this thing fairly messed with me. For a few seconds the aeroplane was not under control and headed for the ground sideways. A big burst of power and the momentum of the aeroplane took it rapidly through the turbulence and out into clean air. Had I been closer to the ground I may well have featured in my own thread in here.
I can now see how the C172 in WA came to serious grief - and I believe your story!
Beware the whilly whilly - they can bite!
Dr
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Without casting doubt on your story I'm thinking...... what would happen if you came in fairly slowly with full flap in the Jab, then you abruptly hit full power which in a Jab would violently pitch the nose upwards. Imagine doing this at the point of an almost developed stall, whilst applying a reasonable amount of rudder. Are we talking some kind of flat spin perhaps with a nose high attitude?
Do you know how far pitched downwards the nose was when the aircraft hit the ground and did you have full flap on for the approach?
Do you know how far pitched downwards the nose was when the aircraft hit the ground and did you have full flap on for the approach?
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I am learning a lot from this site, specially now with my legs in plaster and nothing else to do!
I was on full flaps when I came in and when I applied full power. I was waiting for all the 'reactions' to happen. Meaning nose up and to the left.( it was a j230) so it was suppose to have enough power to do exactly that.
All it did was bouncing and going up as if I had no controll over rudder or stick. It went into a flat spin and it dropped the nose right down, so much, that I was facing the ground straight out the windscreen.
This picture has upset me a bit, as I knew that this was a bad angle to hit the ground in! I kept on pulling back on the stick to lift the nose, which happened right in the end.
The other part that's not making sense to me, was when I applied full power, the stall warning came on, I lowered the nose, but did not have a lot of room to play in, when I started to pull up again, was when I had that chopper feeling where I went straight up.
I spinned to the left, or anti clocks, and I was wondering afterwards about full rigt rudder, but again it wouldn't have done anything to the stall?
The way I "parked" the Jab was still with full flaps, FULL throttle and full right rudder, but the rudder could have been there from impact??
Thanks VH and if I can put more light on this subject, I will.
P
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lucky_P, first of all thanks for sharing your story here -- we can all just learn from the mishaps that happen, sometimes seemingly at random, and to be most well-meaning and prudent pilots 
My first thought was, gee I'm happy I have at least 800-900 kilos of mass in the air in my Archer when I come in to land, but I was shocked at the Dr's account of events
How quickly did you apply full power? Was it very sudden or the usual gentle but firm application? Did you apply rudder as a reaction to the yaw, or anticipating it (thereby possibly it being too much too early, causing some of the ensuing behaviour)?
I don't really believe it is possible to stall/spin even a lightie like a Jab with a sudden application of power and full rudder, but I stand to be corrected on that one. From what you're saying about the stall, the theory about the wind throwing you around sounds the most likely IMHO.
In any case, I hope you have a speedy recovery! If you were around Melbourne, I'd offer to take you up for a little flight so you don't miss it too much, but I'm sure there'll be locals who'd gladly do the same
otherwise, a cold stubbie with a view of the field from the aero club will be at least some consolation for a little while 
My first thought was, gee I'm happy I have at least 800-900 kilos of mass in the air in my Archer when I come in to land, but I was shocked at the Dr's account of events
How quickly did you apply full power? Was it very sudden or the usual gentle but firm application? Did you apply rudder as a reaction to the yaw, or anticipating it (thereby possibly it being too much too early, causing some of the ensuing behaviour)?
I don't really believe it is possible to stall/spin even a lightie like a Jab with a sudden application of power and full rudder, but I stand to be corrected on that one. From what you're saying about the stall, the theory about the wind throwing you around sounds the most likely IMHO.
In any case, I hope you have a speedy recovery! If you were around Melbourne, I'd offer to take you up for a little flight so you don't miss it too much, but I'm sure there'll be locals who'd gladly do the same
otherwise, a cold stubbie with a view of the field from the aero club will be at least some consolation for a little while
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PlankBlender, I realy appreciate all the questions and 'what ifs' thats coming out of this, I am the one who needs to learn from this and I lost count on how many times I played this over in my mind.
When I decided that I was going around, it was just a normal call that I have made lots of times before.
It was the gentle firm application of power and all the rest was more on anticipating on what is about to happen after applying power.
The stall warning came on, I lowered the nose, still tracking parralell with the runway and then I started gaining hight and doing my 360 at the same time in an anti clock direction and ended up right next to the runway.
That last few seconds after applying full power was a very bumpy ride and I knew from the start of it that I was in DEEP trouble.
I can't answer your question on too much rudder too early. I don't know.
All I can say is that I was on R rudder spinning left or anti clock which sounds wrong to me.
I am open for any suggestions, but I will also do anything to give this a miss next time. DR said beware the whilly whilly can bite. They sure can and I was in a world of hurt for some time.
When I decided that I was going around, it was just a normal call that I have made lots of times before.
It was the gentle firm application of power and all the rest was more on anticipating on what is about to happen after applying power.
The stall warning came on, I lowered the nose, still tracking parralell with the runway and then I started gaining hight and doing my 360 at the same time in an anti clock direction and ended up right next to the runway.
That last few seconds after applying full power was a very bumpy ride and I knew from the start of it that I was in DEEP trouble.
I can't answer your question on too much rudder too early. I don't know.
All I can say is that I was on R rudder spinning left or anti clock which sounds wrong to me.
I am open for any suggestions, but I will also do anything to give this a miss next time. DR said beware the whilly whilly can bite. They sure can and I was in a world of hurt for some time.
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In fact FYI, the ONLY way to spin a Jab is with power (usually full). They won't continue a spin without it. I've got nearly a thousand hours in a Jab and they are capable of all sorts of things, good and bad.
Rumour on the street, a new single seat Jab is being developed with 2 cylinder Kawasaki engine!
Rumour on the street, a new single seat Jab is being developed with 2 cylinder Kawasaki engine!
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Lucky,
Good to hear you are ok.
Please be careful of advice you are offered in here. Some of the experts here dont actually have much of a clue and just post here to make themselves feel big.
Hope you are back in the air soon as you can.
Good to hear you are ok.
Please be careful of advice you are offered in here. Some of the experts here dont actually have much of a clue and just post here to make themselves feel big.
Hope you are back in the air soon as you can.
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J160 stall in go round config full flap, full power. Went from nose up at a ridiculous angle to windscreen full of dirt and turning; sorry no great details on angles. Probably greater nose down than the C150 brushup in spins that suddenly was next on the agenda.
Not as developed as the Jabiru video that looks to be over 60deg.
Not as developed as the Jabiru video that looks to be over 60deg.
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Mr BentPlank, I'm referring to your stock standard in-flight every-day spin, requiring a lot of power to execute. They are pretty much impossible to continue a spin in without power and will continue to spin almost unrecoverably until power is reduced again.
I'm yet to try this spinning 10ft off the ground that Mr Lucky P has managed to unsuccessfully and unluckily execute on this occasion so I'm only trying to theorise on what actually happened. The Jab with full power and flaps lowered and back-stick being pulled on as detailed by the pilot could end in a near vertical nose attitude, hence the ground in the windscreen view afterwards. You're talking about a lot of horses on a machine that climbs at 1,500fpm with 6 cylinders, 1 up with the standard Jabiru nose high attitude. If you haven't flown a Jab, the nose appears very high to the uninitiated. If I'd been watching I'd say that the pilot was trying something that he saw Pip Boorman do at an airshow.
Mr. Milk, just trying to demonstrate here from experience that the weather may not be to blame and the pilot has backed this to an extent with his recounting of the incident. Nothing wrong with a bit of post-crash analysis and brilliant that the pilot is here to discuss it with us, albiet in plaster.
We all make mistakes, some worse than others and sometimes there are other factors that come into it, but on this occasion as I said, congrats to the pilot for being alive to tell us all about it!
I'm yet to try this spinning 10ft off the ground that Mr Lucky P has managed to unsuccessfully and unluckily execute on this occasion so I'm only trying to theorise on what actually happened. The Jab with full power and flaps lowered and back-stick being pulled on as detailed by the pilot could end in a near vertical nose attitude, hence the ground in the windscreen view afterwards. You're talking about a lot of horses on a machine that climbs at 1,500fpm with 6 cylinders, 1 up with the standard Jabiru nose high attitude. If you haven't flown a Jab, the nose appears very high to the uninitiated. If I'd been watching I'd say that the pilot was trying something that he saw Pip Boorman do at an airshow.
Mr. Milk, just trying to demonstrate here from experience that the weather may not be to blame and the pilot has backed this to an extent with his recounting of the incident. Nothing wrong with a bit of post-crash analysis and brilliant that the pilot is here to discuss it with us, albiet in plaster.
We all make mistakes, some worse than others and sometimes there are other factors that come into it, but on this occasion as I said, congrats to the pilot for being alive to tell us all about it!
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XXX, great details, thanks. I'll remember that if I ever get behind the stick of a Jab 
So basically, this thing is so light and powerful, that when you apply full power at low speed, it'll momentarily think it's a helicopter and try to go straight up, pulling the whole machine up behind the fan only to realise that it really isn't a blender shortly thereafter, and due to its weight, lack of lift from the actual wings (> max AoA), and probably helped by the application of rudder from the poor pilot trying to figure out in real time what's going on, it'll go over the side and start spinning wildly, all the while not regaining lift because the power keeps pulling it around and disturbing its inbuilt stability?!?!
Did I get that about right? If so, I'm but fascinated. Aviation is truly amazing in its complexity, and sometimes some little thing you don't know will just end up biting you in the a$s 
BTW, I don't bend planks (not yet, anyway, knock on wood), I blend them by regularly switching stick and rudder for cyclic and collective
So basically, this thing is so light and powerful, that when you apply full power at low speed, it'll momentarily think it's a helicopter and try to go straight up, pulling the whole machine up behind the fan
only to realise that it really isn't a blender shortly thereafter, and due to its weight, lack of lift from the actual wings (> max AoA), and probably helped by the application of rudder from the poor pilot trying to figure out in real time what's going on, it'll go over the side and start spinning wildly, all the while not regaining lift because the power keeps pulling it around and disturbing its inbuilt stability?!?!Did I get that about right? If so, I'm
but fascinated. Aviation is truly amazing in its complexity, and sometimes some little thing you don't know will just end up biting you in the a$s BTW, I don't bend planks (not yet, anyway, knock on wood
), I blend them by regularly switching stick and rudder for cyclic and collective
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In a manner of words, yes, that sounds pretty much right!
The 230 is very powerful 1 up, remember you're talking about what is ultimately a very light 4 seat aircraft, 1 up, with an unknown amount of fuel. Whilst they are not capable of "hanging" off the propellor, they can climb very steep hanging off the prop and with significant inputs could behave unexpectedly. But then again, point any aircraft at the sky with full power close to the gound any anything could happen!
The 230 is very powerful 1 up, remember you're talking about what is ultimately a very light 4 seat aircraft, 1 up, with an unknown amount of fuel. Whilst they are not capable of "hanging" off the propellor, they can climb very steep hanging off the prop and with significant inputs could behave unexpectedly. But then again, point any aircraft at the sky with full power close to the gound any anything could happen!
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XXX
Interesting theory that your propose and I guess its possible. Might have to go out and try it, albeit higher up!
In my experience, and mostly dodging skippies of which are in plague proportions up here and around the end of day or early morning, I have done many GA's at full flap. I have never had anything other than the expected hold the stick forward (bit of pressure required but not much) and let her climb out, reduce flap, climb out as normal.
Having said that it is usually with full back trim and good approach speeds etc. Maybe with full trim back and not pushing the stick forward at all, and a boot full of rudder could generate this condition, but you have to get a lot of things wrong all at once.
Be interesting to have lucky p offer some more comments based on our theories.
Still sounds like a whilly whilly got him to me.
J
Interesting theory that your propose and I guess its possible. Might have to go out and try it, albeit higher up!
In my experience, and mostly dodging skippies
of which are in plague proportions up here and around the end of day or early morning, I have done many GA's at full flap. I have never had anything other than the expected hold the stick forward (bit of pressure required but not much) and let her climb out, reduce flap, climb out as normal.Having said that it is usually with full back trim and good approach speeds etc. Maybe with full trim back and not pushing the stick forward at all, and a boot full of rudder could generate this condition, but you have to get a lot of things wrong all at once.
Be interesting to have lucky p offer some more comments based on our theories.
Still sounds like a whilly whilly got him to me.
J
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Jabawocky, I am out of comments with all my 40hrs of experience!!!
But all this theories is surely going to light up something.
I have a lot of respect and faith in my instructer, and as I have said earlier, his suggestion was to go up higher and try it again.
I would like to share all these info with him and hear what he says, as he was also involved in the investigation while I was in bed!
His input might add some more facts to my incident.
But all this theories is surely going to light up something.
I have a lot of respect and faith in my instructer, and as I have said earlier, his suggestion was to go up higher and try it again.
I would like to share all these info with him and hear what he says, as he was also involved in the investigation while I was in bed!
His input might add some more facts to my incident.