Tamworth ILS and Class D
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Tamworth ILS and Class D
Just a few quick questions regarding class D and Tamworth ILS!!!
I have just been given my IR flight test route it includes the Tamworth ILS, in my training I have only ever been radar vectored onto the localizer!! But I have done the DME arcs/Back track in the synthetic trainer!!
My route is YSBK – YMND (VOR AWK) YSTW (ILS) – YPMQ (NDB AWK)
Question regarding YSTW procedures???
1. At Mount Sandon can I expect to be handed over to the tower??
2. When I request airways clearance do I give my inbound radial or only if asked??
3. Could I expect a clearance like “track direct to the field”??
4. Will the tower step me down from my cruise altitude or will I have to request descent ECT??
5. At 5 ish NM’s will I then be given a clearance to enter the hold and commence a back track of the localizer and report established???
6. Once in the missed approach do I have to give a Departure report or will I then be given a clearance to continue the climb to cruise level and track to YPMQ???
I know the scenarios will vary depending on traffic ect but any info will help!
Any help or info would be greatly appreciated I have asked around my flying school and no one is 100 % sure on what to expect!! My next option is to ring a local flying school and speak to an IFR instructor and see if they can shed any light. Just want to be ahead of the A/C during the test!!!!
I have just been given my IR flight test route it includes the Tamworth ILS, in my training I have only ever been radar vectored onto the localizer!! But I have done the DME arcs/Back track in the synthetic trainer!!
My route is YSBK – YMND (VOR AWK) YSTW (ILS) – YPMQ (NDB AWK)
Question regarding YSTW procedures???
1. At Mount Sandon can I expect to be handed over to the tower??
2. When I request airways clearance do I give my inbound radial or only if asked??
3. Could I expect a clearance like “track direct to the field”??
4. Will the tower step me down from my cruise altitude or will I have to request descent ECT??
5. At 5 ish NM’s will I then be given a clearance to enter the hold and commence a back track of the localizer and report established???
6. Once in the missed approach do I have to give a Departure report or will I then be given a clearance to continue the climb to cruise level and track to YPMQ???
I know the scenarios will vary depending on traffic ect but any info will help!
Any help or info would be greatly appreciated I have asked around my flying school and no one is 100 % sure on what to expect!! My next option is to ring a local flying school and speak to an IFR instructor and see if they can shed any light. Just want to be ahead of the A/C during the test!!!!
Last edited by Gearup2; 2nd Sep 2008 at 06:16.
Honestly a HUGE ask of yourself under test conditions to do an approach in non-radar environment if you haven't done it before. Every IFR school i've known normally does your test route as a pre test as well so that your familiar with all the procedures.
Also from BK to go all the way to TW and PMQ seems to me that the school is padding your test to make some extra $$$ when it could be done a LOT closer to Sydney. Especially if you were to stuff it up your going to spending a lot. Surely RIC or WLM would be available?
If other instructors at your school can't give you a full appreciation of what you should expect, and you haven't flown it before very hard to fly it to the standard and stress of a flightest for the first time! Personally no way i'd do a flightest in those conditions.
Anywho answer to a few of the questions
1. Not sure where you'll get handed over on that route, but your under radar control and they will hand you over whenever required.
2/3 - Read the AIPs - standard IFR radio calls to a non-radar tower. They will give you tracking depending on how you flightplan - check out the charts, you could elect to plan for joining overhead then do the backcourse, track direct to bradd, do the holding pattern there, or join on the 12 DME arc - all of this MAY depend on runway in use as well, if 12 is active it can get interesting when your trying to do an approach with ATC sequencing.
5. ATC are very clear in their instructions - but listen carefully and make sure you reply when asked too, the TW controllers can be a bit testy - but understandby, it's busy and they have no radar to keep an eye on where you are! It's too hard to say what they will tell you to do because it very much depends on runway in use and traffic around.
6. When you finally depart will again be standard IFR non-radar departure calls as per AIP and eventually TW tower will trsf you to CNTR at a certain DME depending on your crz altitude.
Big thing with TW is you never know what to expect, it all changes very quickly with runway in use - also you do need to lose a fair bit of height - your starting the approach at 5600 feet for a 1700 odd feet minima. It's certainly not one of the 'easiest' ILS's in the country thats for sure. Certainly not the cheapest either, TW council charges as well as AsA...ends up quite expensive.
Really make sure your up on your radio calls, otherwise TW tower will be ALL over you, not what you need on a test.
Also from BK to go all the way to TW and PMQ seems to me that the school is padding your test to make some extra $$$ when it could be done a LOT closer to Sydney. Especially if you were to stuff it up your going to spending a lot. Surely RIC or WLM would be available?
If other instructors at your school can't give you a full appreciation of what you should expect, and you haven't flown it before very hard to fly it to the standard and stress of a flightest for the first time! Personally no way i'd do a flightest in those conditions.
Anywho answer to a few of the questions
1. Not sure where you'll get handed over on that route, but your under radar control and they will hand you over whenever required.
2/3 - Read the AIPs - standard IFR radio calls to a non-radar tower. They will give you tracking depending on how you flightplan - check out the charts, you could elect to plan for joining overhead then do the backcourse, track direct to bradd, do the holding pattern there, or join on the 12 DME arc - all of this MAY depend on runway in use as well, if 12 is active it can get interesting when your trying to do an approach with ATC sequencing.
5. ATC are very clear in their instructions - but listen carefully and make sure you reply when asked too, the TW controllers can be a bit testy - but understandby, it's busy and they have no radar to keep an eye on where you are! It's too hard to say what they will tell you to do because it very much depends on runway in use and traffic around.
6. When you finally depart will again be standard IFR non-radar departure calls as per AIP and eventually TW tower will trsf you to CNTR at a certain DME depending on your crz altitude.
Big thing with TW is you never know what to expect, it all changes very quickly with runway in use - also you do need to lose a fair bit of height - your starting the approach at 5600 feet for a 1700 odd feet minima. It's certainly not one of the 'easiest' ILS's in the country thats for sure. Certainly not the cheapest either, TW council charges as well as AsA...ends up quite expensive.
Really make sure your up on your radio calls, otherwise TW tower will be ALL over you, not what you need on a test.
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Its been a while since I flew in Tamworth, but by the looks of things not much has changed. As you have already stated it is Class D, and this combined with the high amount of training traffic with a smattering of turboprop RPT can make it busy. In the end I would still recommend what you have already thought about and give a local school a call.
1. You will most likely be given an instruction to call tower prior to the airspace. This will be about 10nm to run. Be mentally prepared to hold as the airways can get choked up with students making minced meat out of their radio calls.
2. On initial contact with tower give the report as outlined in the AIP. This includes radial, range, altitude, ATIS and your intentions.
3. Ask and you will get. You may get via the arc and once again be prepared for the traffic. They sometimes 'forget' about you and leave you high. Once again, be proactive. If you get direct to overhead the field then expect that you may have to enter the hold before doing the backcourse.
4. Tower may step you down, but once again it depends on traffic.
5. After the hold you may get a clearance for the approach straight away or you may get cleared out on the radial, receiving the clearance later. Report established when inbound. All they want to hear outbound is the call overhead the aid.
6. If you are continuing on you will need a departure report. Don't worry it is no rush. They would much rather hear a good call with accurate info.
Hope this helps. Its been a while since in YSTW, but I did countless ILS's into the place in another life. Hope your check goes well and let me know if anything I have said is incorrect.
1. You will most likely be given an instruction to call tower prior to the airspace. This will be about 10nm to run. Be mentally prepared to hold as the airways can get choked up with students making minced meat out of their radio calls.
2. On initial contact with tower give the report as outlined in the AIP. This includes radial, range, altitude, ATIS and your intentions.
3. Ask and you will get. You may get via the arc and once again be prepared for the traffic. They sometimes 'forget' about you and leave you high. Once again, be proactive. If you get direct to overhead the field then expect that you may have to enter the hold before doing the backcourse.
4. Tower may step you down, but once again it depends on traffic.
5. After the hold you may get a clearance for the approach straight away or you may get cleared out on the radial, receiving the clearance later. Report established when inbound. All they want to hear outbound is the call overhead the aid.
6. If you are continuing on you will need a departure report. Don't worry it is no rush. They would much rather hear a good call with accurate info.
Hope this helps. Its been a while since in YSTW, but I did countless ILS's into the place in another life. Hope your check goes well and let me know if anything I have said is incorrect.
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Don't sweat it. It is easier than you think.
1. In all likelihood you will be released from Brisbane Centre after you depart MSO and instructed to call Tamworth Tower for clearance (you will be in touch with tower before entering the TW airspace). Make a joining call to TW TWR.
2. Make a standard joining call and include your inbound radial.
3. For an ILS track direct to the field is possible, but coming in from MSO it is more likely you are cleared to BRADD (commence the ILS from there).
4. Inside 25 miles Twr will clear you to 5600 feet.
5. TW Twr will want you to tell them what you want. Not sure about your question here. If you want a hold, tell them. If you don't want to hold, tell them. If they have traffic issues they will tell you what to do.
6. Well prior to the MAP you will have told tower what your intentions are. They will issue a clearance based on that.
Have a great trip!
1. In all likelihood you will be released from Brisbane Centre after you depart MSO and instructed to call Tamworth Tower for clearance (you will be in touch with tower before entering the TW airspace). Make a joining call to TW TWR.
2. Make a standard joining call and include your inbound radial.
3. For an ILS track direct to the field is possible, but coming in from MSO it is more likely you are cleared to BRADD (commence the ILS from there).
4. Inside 25 miles Twr will clear you to 5600 feet.
5. TW Twr will want you to tell them what you want. Not sure about your question here. If you want a hold, tell them. If you don't want to hold, tell them. If they have traffic issues they will tell you what to do.
6. Well prior to the MAP you will have told tower what your intentions are. They will issue a clearance based on that.
Have a great trip!
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Thanks guys for all the advice and info very helpful!
Puff,
Yea I have conducted a few approaches into to RIC and WLM (basically where I did the baulk of my ILS training). The school uses external ATO's so they decide the route ect!! As for the cost i am flying the first leg up and then another bloke will fly the leg home for his IR test. Definitely would be cheaper and easier for everyone if the test was done locally but i guess i will have to venture into class D one day...... just wish it wasn’t the day of my flight test
Puff,
Yea I have conducted a few approaches into to RIC and WLM (basically where I did the baulk of my ILS training). The school uses external ATO's so they decide the route ect!! As for the cost i am flying the first leg up and then another bloke will fly the leg home for his IR test. Definitely would be cheaper and easier for everyone if the test was done locally but i guess i will have to venture into class D one day...... just wish it wasn’t the day of my flight test
This is no big deal. Just relax and enjoy making like a real pilot - you can do it. IFR is easy cause they generally look after you good. Make sure you put in the remarks part of the flightplan that you are on a MEIR test - and they may look after you even better.
All the stuff above is good, but for what its worth I will give you the perspective of someone who might blow into TAM once every 5 years.
Ahhh, beats me - but their gonna hand you over to the tower somewhere - just do as you are told. I would expect "XXX descend to Y thousand, call the TAM tower ****.** at Z miles TAM"
If it were me they would get "TAM Tower, XXX, inbound on the RRR radial at Z miles, cleared to Y thousand, request clearance, copied Bravo (or whatever!)
Yeah, or "track direct TAM VOR or NDB". If it were me, I would probably ask for that anyway and maybe request "sector entry and one holding pattern" to give myself time to slow down, loose a bit of height if necessary and get set up for the Appr.
Yeah, they should step you down or clear you to the holding alt.
Whatever! They probably have a std way of handling it - just do what they tell you. "cleared outbound for the Rwy 30R ILS Appr, report commencing reversal turn" ???
Yes, you need to give a departure call. Don't rush it. Get yourself set up in the climb - climb checks done - then give the call. I would expect the tower would give you onwards clearance or pass you back to Centre.
Good luck! Give'm heaps!
Dr
PS: ...... and let us know how you get on!
All the stuff above is good, but for what its worth I will give you the perspective of someone who might blow into TAM once every 5 years.
1. At Mount Sandon can I expect to be handed over to the tower??
Ahhh, beats me - but their gonna hand you over to the tower somewhere - just do as you are told. I would expect "XXX descend to Y thousand, call the TAM tower ****.** at Z miles TAM"
2. When I request airways clearance do I give my inbound radial or only if asked??
If it were me they would get "TAM Tower, XXX, inbound on the RRR radial at Z miles, cleared to Y thousand, request clearance, copied Bravo (or whatever!)
3. Could I expect a clearance like “track direct to the field”??
Yeah, or "track direct TAM VOR or NDB". If it were me, I would probably ask for that anyway and maybe request "sector entry and one holding pattern" to give myself time to slow down, loose a bit of height if necessary and get set up for the Appr.
4. Will the tower step me down from my cruise altitude or will I have to request descent ECT??
Yeah, they should step you down or clear you to the holding alt.
5. At 5 ish NM’s will I then be given a clearance to enter the hold and commence a back track of the localizer and report established???
Whatever! They probably have a std way of handling it - just do what they tell you. "cleared outbound for the Rwy 30R ILS Appr, report commencing reversal turn" ???
6. Once in the missed approach do I have to give a Departure report or will I then be given a clearance to continue the climb to cruise level and track to YPMQ???
Yes, you need to give a departure call. Don't rush it. Get yourself set up in the climb - climb checks done - then give the call. I would expect the tower would give you onwards clearance or pass you back to Centre.
Good luck! Give'm heaps!
Dr
PS: ...... and let us know how you get on!
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Gidday Gearup,
Good luck with the CIR. I tend to agree with DBTW's explanation.
1. You should be handed off somewhere between 23DME and the control zone boundary (dependent upon your altitude).
2. You need to tell TWR your radial/distance (DME/GPS) and level cleared to on first contact. Can't remember whether a level passing is required but level maintaining is.
3. The MSO-TW track is closely aligned with the LLZ (well, within 10 deg). To do the DME arc you'll need to pass over an IAF on the arc, which is a little ways off track from MSO, so it's not practical. If you are RNAV equipped, tracking via BRADD is the easiest means. (If not, how's your Point-to-Point nav?) Otherwise, work it out at the flight planning stage to avoid any surprises/extra stress. Commencing from overhead with a sector entry is very time consuming and inefficient, so not very likely.
4. As TW is procedural, they depend heavily on your distance/radial/level reports to step you down in accordance with the MSA/LSA limits on your charts. They will match up with your expectations. Be prepared for a higher radio workload in the procedural environment.
5. At 5 miles you are past the OM (and hopefully on the approach). Subject to traffic, you may be asked to report at the OM. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're asking, unless you mean joining from overhead, in which case they will clear you in advance, and normally expect to make a report overhead and/or outbound on the LLZ. If you use this method, look very carefully at the chart and any limitations, particularly if you do go outbound at 4000'.
6. You should have been asked your intentions following the ILS and be given an appropriate overshoot instruction well in advance.
The key to all of this, of course, is preparation. Plan via BRADD if that's permissible. Be prepared to hold there if 12 is the duty runway and there is traffic. Know the limitations associated with holding at BRADD - in particular altitudes and distances, not just timing....
If you are coming from Maitland (as your post suggests), then you might expect to do the DME arc to the left. (Left turns on the arc). Just make sure you cross the IAF on the 155 radial if that's the case. Plan your descent profile as a constant manoeuvre, even on the arc. That'll make it easier for you WHEN you get your engine failure, ie no large power changes associated with having to level off at any intermediate points along the flightpath.
Good luck!
Gotta agree with puff re your first time in Class D. That's not good form on the school's part. They should have given you training, or at the very least co-ordinated with the ATO and told him/her that you were not Class D familiar/trained.
Good luck with the CIR. I tend to agree with DBTW's explanation.
1. You should be handed off somewhere between 23DME and the control zone boundary (dependent upon your altitude).
2. You need to tell TWR your radial/distance (DME/GPS) and level cleared to on first contact. Can't remember whether a level passing is required but level maintaining is.
3. The MSO-TW track is closely aligned with the LLZ (well, within 10 deg). To do the DME arc you'll need to pass over an IAF on the arc, which is a little ways off track from MSO, so it's not practical. If you are RNAV equipped, tracking via BRADD is the easiest means. (If not, how's your Point-to-Point nav?) Otherwise, work it out at the flight planning stage to avoid any surprises/extra stress. Commencing from overhead with a sector entry is very time consuming and inefficient, so not very likely.
4. As TW is procedural, they depend heavily on your distance/radial/level reports to step you down in accordance with the MSA/LSA limits on your charts. They will match up with your expectations. Be prepared for a higher radio workload in the procedural environment.
5. At 5 miles you are past the OM (and hopefully on the approach). Subject to traffic, you may be asked to report at the OM. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're asking, unless you mean joining from overhead, in which case they will clear you in advance, and normally expect to make a report overhead and/or outbound on the LLZ. If you use this method, look very carefully at the chart and any limitations, particularly if you do go outbound at 4000'.
6. You should have been asked your intentions following the ILS and be given an appropriate overshoot instruction well in advance.
The key to all of this, of course, is preparation. Plan via BRADD if that's permissible. Be prepared to hold there if 12 is the duty runway and there is traffic. Know the limitations associated with holding at BRADD - in particular altitudes and distances, not just timing....
If you are coming from Maitland (as your post suggests), then you might expect to do the DME arc to the left. (Left turns on the arc). Just make sure you cross the IAF on the 155 radial if that's the case. Plan your descent profile as a constant manoeuvre, even on the arc. That'll make it easier for you WHEN you get your engine failure, ie no large power changes associated with having to level off at any intermediate points along the flightpath.
Good luck!
Gotta agree with puff re your first time in Class D. That's not good form on the school's part. They should have given you training, or at the very least co-ordinated with the ATO and told him/her that you were not Class D familiar/trained.
Been a while, but I got TW on my IR initial as well. Had done it once before, mainly used WLM.
When I went in I was asked whether I wanted the arc or the backcourse, and if I wanted to hold. You may be asked to hold anyway to make room for a Metro/Dash, no big deal, just more time to sort yourself out!
With regard to entering, dont stress! Just know before you get there at what point you will cross into the CTA at your planned altitude, and work out a fix approavching it. You should be identified by Centre, and they SHOULD hand you off to TW nearing this point, but make sure you know when you're getting close to the CTA step, so that if you do get forgotten about, you don't punch through without a clearance.
TW tower may ask you to report crossing radials/DME distances, and will sometimes clear you for the next descent upon recieving this call. For example:
TWR: "ABC report passing 15 DME"
<a little later>
You: "ABC at 15 DME"
TWR: "ABC descend to 4000, report passing 10 DME"
(At least, that's what I had, but 1 or 2 radials from Sandon, as I came in via Scone. My descents ended up putting me at the correct height to enter the hold/backcourse)
As has been said, study your Class D radio work, just make sure you know what the differences are. If you've ever done ILSs at WLM during CTAF hours then you probably won't have much trouble with this.
Good luck with the test, don't stress too much about TW, it's pretty easy once you get into it. As has been suggested, if TW tower aren't too busy you can give them a ring, or you can try and pick the brains of a local IFR instructor, and they should fill in the gaps. I should also add, take everything I just said with a grain of salt, it was a couple years ago and it's entirely plausible the procedures or my memory have changed significantly since then!
When I went in I was asked whether I wanted the arc or the backcourse, and if I wanted to hold. You may be asked to hold anyway to make room for a Metro/Dash, no big deal, just more time to sort yourself out!
With regard to entering, dont stress! Just know before you get there at what point you will cross into the CTA at your planned altitude, and work out a fix approavching it. You should be identified by Centre, and they SHOULD hand you off to TW nearing this point, but make sure you know when you're getting close to the CTA step, so that if you do get forgotten about, you don't punch through without a clearance.
TW tower may ask you to report crossing radials/DME distances, and will sometimes clear you for the next descent upon recieving this call. For example:
TWR: "ABC report passing 15 DME"
<a little later>
You: "ABC at 15 DME"
TWR: "ABC descend to 4000, report passing 10 DME"
(At least, that's what I had, but 1 or 2 radials from Sandon, as I came in via Scone. My descents ended up putting me at the correct height to enter the hold/backcourse)
As has been said, study your Class D radio work, just make sure you know what the differences are. If you've ever done ILSs at WLM during CTAF hours then you probably won't have much trouble with this.
Good luck with the test, don't stress too much about TW, it's pretty easy once you get into it. As has been suggested, if TW tower aren't too busy you can give them a ring, or you can try and pick the brains of a local IFR instructor, and they should fill in the gaps. I should also add, take everything I just said with a grain of salt, it was a couple years ago and it's entirely plausible the procedures or my memory have changed significantly since then!
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Talk to the instructor who trained you. He/she has a responsibility (as do you) for making sure you are ready for the flight test.
If you haven't flown the route before, sit down with your instructor with your charts and get them to talk you through the whole flight from start up to shut down.
Frankly, your instructor should have already arranged to do this with you once you had the route.
Good luck Gearup!
If you haven't flown the route before, sit down with your instructor with your charts and get them to talk you through the whole flight from start up to shut down.
Frankly, your instructor should have already arranged to do this with you once you had the route.
Good luck Gearup!
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Tamworth
Gearup
I am confused - why wouldn't you go via SGT SCO?
It will put you overhead nicely to track outbound, intercept the arc, dum de dum de dum waffle down the slope and hey presto.
The TW TWR guys are pretty good and much friendlier than they were 6-8 years ago
I am not for a minute doubting the veracity of everything posted on PPRuNe but like citationjet, I am wondering why your instructor has left you feeling you have to ask this bunch of misfits, insomniacs and alcoholics for the information and skills you have paid BIG bikkies for!!!
I am confused - why wouldn't you go via SGT SCO?
It will put you overhead nicely to track outbound, intercept the arc, dum de dum de dum waffle down the slope and hey presto.
The TW TWR guys are pretty good and much friendlier than they were 6-8 years ago
I am not for a minute doubting the veracity of everything posted on PPRuNe but like citationjet, I am wondering why your instructor has left you feeling you have to ask this bunch of misfits, insomniacs and alcoholics for the information and skills you have paid BIG bikkies for!!!
Just one thing I forgot. I've always found TW tower to be exceptionally friendly and helpful, much more so than anyone I've encountered in a GAAP or SY (Although Chuck in AD is awesome too). Maybe they just like to hear a callsign not involving "Roller" on occasion 
). Maybe they just like to hear a callsign not involving "Roller" on occasion
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Can’t thank you guys enough for all your help and advice!
It wasn’t as hard as I thought it would be, At MSO I was asked to contact the tower they either knew I was doing an IR test or they are just generally helpful guys!! Approaching 30 DME they asked me whether I would like a direct track to bradd or join overhead the field. The ATO told me I was to request the back course and join overhead. So I joined overhead made the aproiate sector entry and conducted 1 holding pattern. Once on the inbound leg the tower cleared me for the back course and to report in the procedure turn! Commenced the back course and the produce turn all to a good standard Once established I was told to report at the outer marker, then the ATO gave me the engine failure (right engine) completed the checks and set Zero trust. I then went to cycle the gear down and their was no noise no extra drag and no three greens!!! Um………
The ATO pulled the gear CB’s popped them back in and presto three greens continued the approach to the DA and held the CDI & GS like a prefect cross the whole way down.
The NDB and VOR app also went pretty well so I am a fresh ME IR rated pilot ….scary!! I can hang up my tools as a tradiee and go searching for that first job!
Thanks again guys for all the explanations and tips helped a lot with my planning. The guys in the tower were awesome very helpul and polite! Not like the monkeys I am use to around BK way! Big Thumbs Up
It wasn’t as hard as I thought it would be, At MSO I was asked to contact the tower they either knew I was doing an IR test or they are just generally helpful guys!! Approaching 30 DME they asked me whether I would like a direct track to bradd or join overhead the field. The ATO told me I was to request the back course and join overhead. So I joined overhead made the aproiate sector entry and conducted 1 holding pattern. Once on the inbound leg the tower cleared me for the back course and to report in the procedure turn! Commenced the back course and the produce turn all to a good standard
Once established I was told to report at the outer marker, then the ATO gave me the engine failure (right engine) completed the checks and set Zero trust. I then went to cycle the gear down and their was no noise no extra drag and no three greens!!! Um……… The ATO pulled the gear CB’s popped them back in and presto three greens continued the approach to the DA and held the CDI & GS like a prefect cross the whole way down. The NDB and VOR app also went pretty well so I am a fresh ME IR rated pilot ….scary!! I can hang up my tools as a tradiee and go searching for that first job!
Thanks again guys for all the explanations and tips helped a lot with my planning. The guys in the tower were awesome very helpul and polite! Not like the monkeys I am use to around BK way! Big Thumbs Up
Congratulations
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