Black Hole approaches without visual glide slope guidance
With Australia persisting with third world's best practise its not just turboprop RPT that have to put up with black hole approaches. Taking an A320 into ballina when its raining and at night is, in my view, unacceptable for any RPT. Even coming off the GPS approach some manouvring is required and thats when the "black hole" effect can get you. It has caught out aircraft in the past and has the real potential to do it again.
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Umm - Ballina has a T-Vasis each end. Rwy 06 GNSS RNAV is about 5 degrees out of centreline alignment. Respectfully suggest if you cannot see the T-Vasis on manouevring the 5 degrees on long final you are not visual with the runway environment and should not be continuing the approach! Rwy 24 GNSS RNAV is exactly aligned and requires no manoevring, however.
For the "black holes" in smaller craft I was taught to examine the topos for obstructions and talk to locals first and fly at least 3 legs of circuit, for the turboprop/fan RPT I do agree that PAPI or TVASIS should be minimum.
Edited for spelling
For the "black holes" in smaller craft I was taught to examine the topos for obstructions and talk to locals first and fly at least 3 legs of circuit, for the turboprop/fan RPT I do agree that PAPI or TVASIS should be minimum.
Edited for spelling
Its not a question of not seeing the T-vasis, its the lack of lighting on the approach path that leads to the black hole effect. Combined with the rubber deposits on the runway that obscure the centreline and touchdown markings and you have the potential for getting out of shape very quickly. If you are landing on Rwy 24 then I doubt that heavy rain is going to be a problem.
If you can't make a visual approach onto a runway with a T-VASIS, regardless of the amount of lighting on finals, then I suggest you hand your night rating in. You sound like a danger.
Lot's of guys in RFDS and NTAMS, quite happily and successfully land into black holes all the time. Admittedly, they get a lot more practice at it. And yes, I agree, a PAPI or VASIS should be the minimum approach path lighting guidance available for aerodromes serviced by RPT flights.
morno
Lot's of guys in RFDS and NTAMS, quite happily and successfully land into black holes all the time. Admittedly, they get a lot more practice at it. And yes, I agree, a PAPI or VASIS should be the minimum approach path lighting guidance available for aerodromes serviced by RPT flights.
morno
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Lookleft, if it makes you feel more comfortable, you'd better keep to those airports that have lead-in lighting, HIRL and an ILS. 
Geez, even if you diverted to the Gold Coast you could find yourself on a GNSS RNAV approach with a 12 degree course alteration on final, no lead-in lighting, weak threshold strobes, ( and possibly a displaced threshold anyway) ..... and you're picking on Ballina! Surely based on your logic you could add Coffs, Hamilton, Mackay etc etc......all places where turbofan RPT regularly go in and out, as third world.
Geez, even if you diverted to the Gold Coast you could find yourself on a GNSS RNAV approach with a 12 degree course alteration on final, no lead-in lighting, weak threshold strobes, ( and possibly a displaced threshold anyway) ..... and you're picking on Ballina! Surely based on your logic you could add Coffs, Hamilton, Mackay etc etc......all places where turbofan RPT regularly go in and out, as third world.
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Maybe it would help if he/she looked straight ahead a bit more instead of to the left ....and with the added benefit of two crew watching and cross checking the unfolding situation.....
....and with the added benefit of two crew watching and cross checking the unfolding situation.....
Lookleft, ya big girl!
Ya wanna talk about "black holes"? Try landing here on a dark night with only a jam tin flare on each corner of the strip !!!!!
I have - once only!
Dr
PS: The "thwack" as I ran the prop through the prickly bush just short of the threshold kinda got my attention.
I "dips me 'at" to the RFDS guys who do this sort of thing every second day (or night!).
Ya wanna talk about "black holes"? Try landing here on a dark night with only a jam tin flare on each corner of the strip !!!!!
I have - once only!
Dr
PS: The "thwack" as I ran the prop through the prickly bush just short of the threshold kinda got my attention.
I "dips me 'at" to the RFDS guys who do this sort of thing every second day (or night!).
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hey Dr yr lucky you got a jam tin on each corner, an overkill there mate!
Look the RFDS don't employ pilots who can't 'cut it'. Apart from their high training stds night approaches is everything with these guys. You can get a boy scout to land at a city AD with more lights than an Elvis concert but as the Dr has demonstrated it's a bit diff when yr not RPT with the luxuries of 2 crew & more fancy gizmo's than most. Like I mentioned earlier what did we do pre fancy gizmo's? It's all about a stable app & technique & of course knowing yr/the limitations of that particular app.
Black holes can be interesting & shows ones 'limitations', makes you fly the dials & numbers right to the letter of the law, & all done in the middle of the night in some rather delightful wx ! I/we do them every day/night of the week, if it goes pear shaped then it's pilot error.
CW
yr lucky you got a jam tin on each corner, an overkill there mate!Look the RFDS don't employ pilots who can't 'cut it'. Apart from their high training stds night approaches is everything with these guys. You can get a boy scout to land at a city AD with more lights than an Elvis concert but as the Dr
has demonstrated it's a bit diff when yr not RPT with the luxuries of 2 crew & more fancy gizmo's than most. Like I mentioned earlier what did we do pre fancy gizmo's? It's all about a stable app & technique & of course knowing yr/the limitations of that particular app.Black holes can be interesting & shows ones 'limitations', makes you fly the dials & numbers right to the letter of the law, & all done in the middle of the night in some rather delightful wx ! I/we do them every day/night of the week, if it goes pear shaped then it's pilot error.
CW
hey Dr
yr lucky you got a jam tin on each corner, an overkill there mate!
yr lucky you got a jam tin on each corner, an overkill there mate!
The owner of that property used to leave the back porch light on so he could find his way home in the dark.
I have landed there a number of times with him in the dark in his C185 - over the cottage, over the power line, down the hill (600 m strip) - by landing lights only.
Dr
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I am told a PPRUNER has a big flood light on his property at YBCV that the RFDS ask to have turned on in bad wx at night.
An excellent visability aid or something......
J
An excellent visability aid or something......
J
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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A ute or motorbike on the end of the strip with headlights pointing down the strip is plenty. Although I remember taking off from a very dark strip with just landing lights once and nearly came to grief when a skippy hopped out in front of me and I rotated in a hurry about ten knots slower than I was expecting to. Very dark with the lights piercing the sky leaving two (yeah, I fitted an extra one for getting home) very white streams of light leading to nothing, and a weird feeling of going faster, due to the leaning back, making me think I wasn't climbing. very disorienting and almost a not very pretty ending. I do remember very clearly, ignoring any sensations I was feeling and going ASI, VSI, ALT and ignoring everything else until I had 7500ft on the dial, then correcting my course by nearly 200 deg and fighting the leans for the next two hours. I don't do that sort of thing anymore....... It scared the ......seat buttons off the seat.
Things we do when we hit a couple of thousand hours and become invincible. glad I managed a few more thousand after that and learned how very mortal we are.
Although I remember taking off from a very dark strip with just landing lights once and nearly came to grief when a skippy hopped out in front of me and I rotated in a hurry about ten knots slower than I was expecting to. Very dark with the lights piercing the sky leaving two (yeah, I fitted an extra one for getting home) very white streams of light leading to nothing, and a weird feeling of going faster, due to the leaning back, making me think I wasn't climbing. very disorienting and almost a not very pretty ending. I do remember very clearly, ignoring any sensations I was feeling and going ASI, VSI, ALT and ignoring everything else until I had 7500ft on the dial, then correcting my course by nearly 200 deg and fighting the leans for the next two hours. I don't do that sort of thing anymore....... It scared the ......seat buttons off the seat. Things we do when we hit a couple of thousand hours and become invincible. glad I managed a few more thousand after that and learned how very mortal we are.
Back in the days when the Flight Safety propoganda magazine was actually a decent intelligent read, there was a very good article on a KingAir that crashed in Roma (?) after the pilot suffered the somatogravic illusion - just as Wiz (G'Day ) describes.
Hey FTDK - I'd be more worried about the transverse slope in your pic above - must be around 25-30 deg!!!
) describes.Hey FTDK - I'd be more worried about the transverse slope in your pic above - must be around 25-30 deg!!!
Hey FTDK - I'd be more worried about the transverse slope in your pic above - must be around 25-30 deg!!!
If the Kingair prang to which you refer was the one where the aircraft took off into a "black hole" and then descended back into the ground, I think it was at Wondai rather than Roma.
Dr
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Just returning back to the first post and the point raised by Centaurus, and to not diminish the 'skills' discussion etc, it does seem strange to watch so much money finding its way into security and other related capital expenditure at many remote airfields yet minimal if nil spending in areas of OCHS. As a pilot we are regularly exposed and expected (often by our peers) to deal with situations that demand full use of our skills and training often as a result of inappropriate funding - in this day and age we watch the dollars get thrown at so many dubious areas in our lives, yet a simple PAPI installation at any location that requires night operations would be mandatory.
We are protected from 'tweezer rage' but still bite the seat cushion when the sun goes down.
Aside from all the excellent suggestions raised, at the end of a very long shift that involved many night approaches into yet another barely lit strip, it would be comforting to take advantage of any visual approach guidance on offer. It is a valid point raised by Mr Cent and Krusty - when you do this for a living night after night - ones experience and skills shouldn't add to the 'harden the f
k up' attitude.
We are protected from 'tweezer rage' but still bite the seat cushion when the sun goes down.
Aside from all the excellent suggestions raised, at the end of a very long shift that involved many night approaches into yet another barely lit strip, it would be comforting to take advantage of any visual approach guidance on offer. It is a valid point raised by Mr Cent and Krusty - when you do this for a living night after night - ones experience and skills shouldn't add to the 'harden the f
k up' attitude.
Thread Starter
good article on a KingAir that crashed in Roma (?) after the pilot suffered the somatogravic illusion -
I can understand the problem with aircraft being catapulted of aircraft carriers into a black ocean scene but we don't hear much of these aircraft pranging either.
I sometimes wonder if the real cause of these accidents such as the Roma Baron, is simply poor instrument flying scan especially when faced with a take off into a pitch black night immediately after lift off. The Roma crash was put down to somatogravic syndrome because there is no doubt this problem exists under certain acceleration conditions. But it was a theory only in the Roma crash. The actual cause of the pilot flying into the ground was purely guesswork by ATSB. Does the illusion only affect inexperienced pilots or is it across the board with airline pilots too. I suspect too much is read into this sort of explanation rather than a hard look at the competency of the pilot at basic instrument flying skills when faced with no horizon.