Finding balance in Multi-IFR: the gutless pussy vs the reckless madman
Guest
Posts: n/a
Finding balance in Multi-IFR: the gutless pussy vs the reckless madman
You're sitting there reading TAFs and ARFORs for your flight, about to depart in half an hour. Amongst other things, the forecasts include frequent CB and sigmets for severe turbulence. You're flying a simple light twin with no WX radar.
For those of you out there who've done their thousand or so hours in these kinds of operations, how did you deal with these situations? How and where did you draw the line?
If you saw freq CB on an arfor, did you call it a day and just incur the wrath of your boss? Or did you head out in all but the absolute worst of conditions, give it a go and only call it a day if and when you found yourself in the thick of it, with the weather / turbulence simply to bad to press on?
How do you strike an acceptable balance, getting the job done while being professional and responsible? I realise that it's impossible to give a single difinitive answer but it would be great to get some idea of what is standard and acceptable practice in the industry.
Thanks!
For those of you out there who've done their thousand or so hours in these kinds of operations, how did you deal with these situations? How and where did you draw the line?
If you saw freq CB on an arfor, did you call it a day and just incur the wrath of your boss? Or did you head out in all but the absolute worst of conditions, give it a go and only call it a day if and when you found yourself in the thick of it, with the weather / turbulence simply to bad to press on?
How do you strike an acceptable balance, getting the job done while being professional and responsible? I realise that it's impossible to give a single difinitive answer but it would be great to get some idea of what is standard and acceptable practice in the industry.
Thanks!
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
If the forecast if for embedded CB's then perhaps stay on the ground, otherwise get airborne and stay in VMC!
If you have no weather radar then the Mark I eyeball is your best defence for steering clear of CB's, in fact I would say it is better than WX radar anyway!
If you have no weather radar then the Mark I eyeball is your best defence for steering clear of CB's, in fact I would say it is better than WX radar anyway!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: out there
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
im sure a few of you remember this one
Final ATSB investigation report on Condobolin in-flight breakup 4-fatality
22 October 2007
The ATSBs final investigation report into a Piper Chieftain accident near Condobolin, NSW on 2 December 2005, resulting in four deceased persons, confirms that the aircraft broke up during flight when its structural limits were exceeded in the vicinity of thunderstorms.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau report states that there was no indication, either by way of emergency radio transmission from the pilot, or in a change in the altitude, track and speed of the aircraft as recorded by radar, that the flight was not proceeding normally. Some minutes after the pilot reported diverting left of track to avoid weather, communications with the aircraft were lost.
The absence of an on-board recording device on the aircraft prevented a full analysis of the circumstances of the breakup. However, while post-impact fire damage limited the extent to which some of the aircrafts systems, including the fuel and electrical systems, could be examined, wreckage examination did not reveal any pre-existing fault or condition that could have weakened the aircraft structure and caused it to break up at a load within the design load limit.
A line of severe thunderstorms crossed the aircrafts planned track and were the subject of a SIGMET (significant weather advice) issued by the Bureau of Meteorology. As the SIGMET information did not meet the criteria for direct notification, it was not advised directly to the pilot of the aircraft. The investigation was unable to determine if the pilot had obtained the SIGMET from any of the range of pre and in-flight weather briefing services available to the pilot.
Analysis of the prevailing weather indicated that, immediately before the accident, the aircraft was likely to have been surrounded to the east, west, and south by a large complex of thunderstorms. That situation may have limited the options available to the pilot to avoid any possible hazardous phenomena associated with the storms.
Although, as a result of a review of Flight Information Service initiated in November 2004, Airservices Australia had identified inconsistencies and ambiguities in the provision of Flight Information Service, including Hazard Alert procedures, they were not assessed by the investigation to be contributing factors to the accident. As a result of its review, Airservices Australia initiated changes to the Flight Information Service and Hazard Alerts sections of the Manual of Air Traffic Services and the Aeronautical Information Publication to improve future safety.
While not contributory to the accident, the report identifies a number of inconsistencies between Australian SIGMET dissemination procedures and those contained in International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) documentation. The report contains recommendations to Airservices Australia and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to review Australian procedures with a view to minimising those inconsistencies.
The circumstances of the accident are a salient reminder to pilots of their responsibilities to request weather and other information necessary to make safe and timely operational decisions, and of the importance of avoiding thunderstorms by large margins.
Copies of the report can be downloaded from the ATSBs internet site at www.atsb.gov.
Final ATSB investigation report on Condobolin in-flight breakup 4-fatality
22 October 2007
The ATSBs final investigation report into a Piper Chieftain accident near Condobolin, NSW on 2 December 2005, resulting in four deceased persons, confirms that the aircraft broke up during flight when its structural limits were exceeded in the vicinity of thunderstorms.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau report states that there was no indication, either by way of emergency radio transmission from the pilot, or in a change in the altitude, track and speed of the aircraft as recorded by radar, that the flight was not proceeding normally. Some minutes after the pilot reported diverting left of track to avoid weather, communications with the aircraft were lost.
The absence of an on-board recording device on the aircraft prevented a full analysis of the circumstances of the breakup. However, while post-impact fire damage limited the extent to which some of the aircrafts systems, including the fuel and electrical systems, could be examined, wreckage examination did not reveal any pre-existing fault or condition that could have weakened the aircraft structure and caused it to break up at a load within the design load limit.
A line of severe thunderstorms crossed the aircrafts planned track and were the subject of a SIGMET (significant weather advice) issued by the Bureau of Meteorology. As the SIGMET information did not meet the criteria for direct notification, it was not advised directly to the pilot of the aircraft. The investigation was unable to determine if the pilot had obtained the SIGMET from any of the range of pre and in-flight weather briefing services available to the pilot.
Analysis of the prevailing weather indicated that, immediately before the accident, the aircraft was likely to have been surrounded to the east, west, and south by a large complex of thunderstorms. That situation may have limited the options available to the pilot to avoid any possible hazardous phenomena associated with the storms.
Although, as a result of a review of Flight Information Service initiated in November 2004, Airservices Australia had identified inconsistencies and ambiguities in the provision of Flight Information Service, including Hazard Alert procedures, they were not assessed by the investigation to be contributing factors to the accident. As a result of its review, Airservices Australia initiated changes to the Flight Information Service and Hazard Alerts sections of the Manual of Air Traffic Services and the Aeronautical Information Publication to improve future safety.
While not contributory to the accident, the report identifies a number of inconsistencies between Australian SIGMET dissemination procedures and those contained in International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) documentation. The report contains recommendations to Airservices Australia and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to review Australian procedures with a view to minimising those inconsistencies.
The circumstances of the accident are a salient reminder to pilots of their responsibilities to request weather and other information necessary to make safe and timely operational decisions, and of the importance of avoiding thunderstorms by large margins.
Copies of the report can be downloaded from the ATSBs internet site at www.atsb.gov.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Back again.
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depends upon the wording of the Sigmets and the types of CBs expected: frontal, heat mass, etc. The types of CBs and Sigmet wording would dictate a route (eg. coastal plains, west of the ranges, stick to the valleys, up high, down low). If I could see a few VFR gaps in the hills around the point of departure, I'd at least get airborne, stay VFR and have a look. If conditions were acceptable and I could then get to the next airport and beyond, I'd continue. If beyond the subsequent airport was then clear, I knew I had a point to return to and would continue with the next airport in mind. When divided into a series of small steps, the big concern over a longer flight into crappy conditions is broken into a series of small almost local flights and not so drastic decisions.
One thing for sure, if I made a decision simply based on how the weather looked in the forecast on all but the worst days, I would have been out of a job several times. The view from the air can provide a lot more information than being on the ground. Most bosses I know would not complain if you got airborne to have a look at the weather, even if you subsequently only did a circuit and had to land again.
One thing for sure, if I made a decision simply based on how the weather looked in the forecast on all but the worst days, I would have been out of a job several times. The view from the air can provide a lot more information than being on the ground. Most bosses I know would not complain if you got airborne to have a look at the weather, even if you subsequently only did a circuit and had to land again.
Last edited by Lodown; 1st Aug 2008 at 23:03.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
- If the Cbs are embedded, either stay above or below the stuff they are embedded in.
- Suck it and see.
- Don't wait til you are in it to decide you shouldn't be there.
- Always leave yourself an escape path
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Third Barstool on the left
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go to the boss and tell him:
"I can't go direct because of x, y, z but I can [insert solution to problem here]. What do you think?"
A good boss on a good day should say "OK good decision" or "try this..."
Apply the rules that Flying-Spike has just posted and you'll be safe I would reckon.
The front seat of a Chieftain at night, in IMC, with CBs out there "somewhere" is a very lonely place to be, even if there's 9 other bods on board
"I can't go direct because of x, y, z but I can [insert solution to problem here]. What do you think?"
A good boss on a good day should say "OK good decision" or "try this..."
Apply the rules that Flying-Spike has just posted and you'll be safe I would reckon.
The front seat of a Chieftain at night, in IMC, with CBs out there "somewhere" is a very lonely place to be, even if there's 9 other bods on board
Silly Old Git
For those of you out there who've done their thousand or so hours in these kinds of operations, how did you deal with these situations? How and where did you draw the line?
1) Sh@t pants
2) Tighten seatbelt
Not bad idea if youre lucky enough to have WXRad equipped traffic around you ask them for a steer
Always have an application in for a better job and hope you get it before you become aluminium confetti.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Look up and wave
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ADF can be a primitive WX radar if required. Ive always tried to stay below it above LSALT if i can, but if you find yourself in it and your not WX equipped the ADF can finally become useful :P
I agree, the front seat of any light twin is a very lonely place indeed on a stormy night!
I agree, the front seat of any light twin is a very lonely place indeed on a stormy night!
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Look up and wave
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the current shortage or career GA drivers and good chief pilots, most company's i have been around would not let (unofficially) the Chief pilot fly on such a night, just in case 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Back again.
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Night! Different matter. Call every Tom, Dick and Harry with a radar to find a route. If there's a long line across track or the sky is littered with them, wait another hour and ask again. If the TS are still not dissipating, call it a night and hit the pub for a beer and a countermeal and get a fresh start in the morning. No point in fretting over the decision. Better to be on the ground wishing, etc.
The front seat of a Chieftain at night, in IMC, with CBs out there "somewhere" is a very lonely place to be, even if there's 9 other bods on board
I am currently in a job where this thread vry much applies, however I am lucky that all of our aircraft have WX radars. Whether they work on any given day is another issue, howver most of the time they are a BIG help.
Personally (although I haven't been around for thousands of hours so take of this what you will), I will never go into IMC if I know that embedded CB's are around unless I have a WX radar AND the thing is working. If the CB's aren't embedded and its during the day- then you would be stupid not to go and just pick your way around them. If its at night- then see WX radar comment!
As for turbulence, I am lucky I havent been backed into a corner in regards to having a route which gives no option for avoiding the SIGMET severe turbulence areas. Its probably a different story in Victoria or eastern NSW where is the prevailing winds are coming from a certain direction then your SIGMET would cover a pretty large area.
I have found that quite often a sh#thouse weather forecast on the face of it can actually be deciphered into giving you a route/altitude/time which will result in not quite so sh#thouse conditions.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking forward to returning to Japan soon but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
Age: 69
Posts: 2,967
Received 93 Likes
on
54 Posts
Reading the posts on this thread reminded me of two sayings I've heard over the years.
The first was via my late Father who told me of some of the met briefings he recieved when doing his wings course in Canada in early 1944. He said that some briefings went
''Gentlemen, today the birds are walking. And so are you!''
The second saying was presented to me on a piece of A4 paper from my simulator Instructor (Gerry L) the day I gained my first ever Multi IFR rating.
The words on the paper read;
''An instrument rating indicates the holder has recieved enough training to know when he should stay on the ground''
Twenty one years later I still have that piece of paper.
The first was via my late Father who told me of some of the met briefings he recieved when doing his wings course in Canada in early 1944. He said that some briefings went
''Gentlemen, today the birds are walking. And so are you!''
The second saying was presented to me on a piece of A4 paper from my simulator Instructor (Gerry L) the day I gained my first ever Multi IFR rating.
The words on the paper read;
''An instrument rating indicates the holder has recieved enough training to know when he should stay on the ground''
Twenty one years later I still have that piece of paper.
Check other wx info. Synoptic charts, weather radar (ground based, BOM site). Very useful. Areas such as the south of the country often have bands passing through, you can wait until the BOM wx radar site shows the storms have passed and know that you're ok for the sector.
ADF tuned to low frequencies will point towards storms. If close to storms you will experience radio static, St Elmo's fire (although these also happen in ice, but also good to get out of!), OAT changes, turbulence, wind direction and speed changes, rain etc, which are a good indicator to turn upwind of said storm by AT LEAST a margin of 10 miles. Some of these may be very late indicators but at least its better than flying through the core of a CB!
At night, you can see lines of storms because of the lightning, and be able to deviate around the line; very useful if the CB's are there because of a front.
As a last resort, i have found ATC to be helpful as they are able to access the BOM site and give you vectors around the storms (if in a radar environment!)
The ARFOR is quite general and a good read of synoptic charts and wx radar will give you a better idea along your specific route.
If in doubt, say no, I doubt any company would have a go at you for not going on a really bad night. Getting people or freight there eventually is the goal, and sometimes the weather is too bad to risk it...no one wants to lose an airframe!
Edit because i said downwind instead of upwind...doh!
ADF tuned to low frequencies will point towards storms. If close to storms you will experience radio static, St Elmo's fire (although these also happen in ice, but also good to get out of!), OAT changes, turbulence, wind direction and speed changes, rain etc, which are a good indicator to turn upwind of said storm by AT LEAST a margin of 10 miles. Some of these may be very late indicators but at least its better than flying through the core of a CB!
At night, you can see lines of storms because of the lightning, and be able to deviate around the line; very useful if the CB's are there because of a front.
As a last resort, i have found ATC to be helpful as they are able to access the BOM site and give you vectors around the storms (if in a radar environment!)
The ARFOR is quite general and a good read of synoptic charts and wx radar will give you a better idea along your specific route.
If in doubt, say no, I doubt any company would have a go at you for not going on a really bad night. Getting people or freight there eventually is the goal, and sometimes the weather is too bad to risk it...no one wants to lose an airframe!
Edit because i said downwind instead of upwind...doh!
Last edited by Sprite; 3rd Aug 2008 at 06:40.
I found the best learning came from doing, if you at least get up and try to find a way through you will be that much more experienced.
This removes the anxiety (but not the respect) and you will be much more confident crying "uncle" on the rare occasions where it really can't be done.
Sooner or later you are going to get "caught" in something, it will be easier to deal with if you have seen it before.
I have to honestly say I have never seen an ADF point towards a cell, neither has anyone else I know, is this something only really old gear did?
This removes the anxiety (but not the respect) and you will be much more confident crying "uncle" on the rare occasions where it really can't be done.
Sooner or later you are going to get "caught" in something, it will be easier to deal with if you have seen it before.
I have to honestly say I have never seen an ADF point towards a cell, neither has anyone else I know, is this something only really old gear did?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the Mark I eyeball is your best defence for steering clear of CB's,
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Nearest Bombardier AMO
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your boss would have no leg to stand on if you refused to fly under the circumstances you describe, because a light twin with no radar is in NO way adequate for the job. Period!!!
The rate of ice-accretion possible in, or within, the vicinity of even a small CB has to be experienced to be believed, ditto the turbulence which can tear much stronger airframes to shreds (I know of a King Air that shed a wing outboard of the nacelle due to exactly this: flying at night with an inop Wx radar) Hail the size of tennis-balls can damage a commercial jet so heavily that it is written off - it will go through the paper-thin windscreen of a Chieftain/Titan/310 etc. like a gatling-gun.
I'm not being melodramatic. I've been in your shoes (and did the wrong thing!) and was very lucky.
Don't do it. Really, really, don't.
The rate of ice-accretion possible in, or within, the vicinity of even a small CB has to be experienced to be believed, ditto the turbulence which can tear much stronger airframes to shreds (I know of a King Air that shed a wing outboard of the nacelle due to exactly this: flying at night with an inop Wx radar) Hail the size of tennis-balls can damage a commercial jet so heavily that it is written off - it will go through the paper-thin windscreen of a Chieftain/Titan/310 etc. like a gatling-gun.
I'm not being melodramatic. I've been in your shoes (and did the wrong thing!) and was very lucky.
Don't do it. Really, really, don't.
Last edited by Doodlebug; 2nd Aug 2008 at 16:30. Reason: to better make the point, I hope!
Grandpa Aerotart
Tee Emm I spent 9 years ME IFR in sans weather radar 95% of the time before moving onto Dash 7/F28. Even now I rely on my eyes more than the 767 radar except for the blackest of nights.
Radar is NOT infallible. I'd love $1000 for every time I have sat looking at a towering Cu that doesn't show up on radar. If I could only have one or the other I'd rather have a strike finder.
Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it impossible.
I am VERY wary about offering advice on this thread. In 14000 hrs I have very rarely seen weather I wouldn't take off into but MOST of that has been in the tropics where the TS are not as scary. I am a LOT more circumspect about TS in SE QLD, NSW etc...they are a different breed of TS. In fact one of the VERY few times I absolutely would not take off was in Brisbane with black/green CBs and lightning all around and I was going somewhere in my Bonanza.
I would simply say feel your way carefully and build your skills. You'll learn nothing sitting on the ground.
One day you will stumble into a CB and when you do don't panic.
*Disconnect the A/P,
*Maintain heading/wings level,
*Use power as reqd to keep speed somewhere near Va
*DON'T try and maintain altitude.
Once you're in a CB the quickest way out is straight ahead...DON'T do a turn. Let the aircraft float up and down with the updrafts/downdrafts that way you won't pull the wings off.
It will be a wild ride but handled properly it is not a death sentence. I once, on a pitch black night, flew straight into a biggy at 14000' in a Queenair doing a paper run between Moresby and Lae. It was a pretty clear night too...as far as I know that was the only CB anywhere. I popped out the far side above 18000' after a pretty wild 60-90 seconds or so.
The one thing I DIDN'T experience in that wild ride was high G because I wasn't worried about altitude nor even too stressed about small pitch excursions. Just wings level and approximate speed control with coarse power and ride it out.
A mate of mine once flew under the anvil of a Tcu in an aerostar at about FL180...might have been a little higher...and copped a face full of hail which literally took out the windscreen and banged up the leading edges and prop spinners. He survived and got it on the ground. Lesson? NEVER fly downwind of a Tcu...even 10nm is too close downwind.
Personally I have never experienced hail down low where you'll be typically flying in a Chieftain. I would be VERY reluctant to fly in the flight levels at night without a radar/strike finder unless the weather was severe clear and there was some moonlight.
If you're approaching a line (that you can't go around) of TS at night watch the lightning closely...when you see an area that stays dark that is the way through. I have done that many times and it works.
Radar is NOT infallible. I'd love $1000 for every time I have sat looking at a towering Cu that doesn't show up on radar. If I could only have one or the other I'd rather have a strike finder.
Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it impossible.
I am VERY wary about offering advice on this thread. In 14000 hrs I have very rarely seen weather I wouldn't take off into but MOST of that has been in the tropics where the TS are not as scary. I am a LOT more circumspect about TS in SE QLD, NSW etc...they are a different breed of TS. In fact one of the VERY few times I absolutely would not take off was in Brisbane with black/green CBs and lightning all around and I was going somewhere in my Bonanza.
I would simply say feel your way carefully and build your skills. You'll learn nothing sitting on the ground.
One day you will stumble into a CB and when you do don't panic.
*Disconnect the A/P,
*Maintain heading/wings level,
*Use power as reqd to keep speed somewhere near Va
*DON'T try and maintain altitude.
Once you're in a CB the quickest way out is straight ahead...DON'T do a turn. Let the aircraft float up and down with the updrafts/downdrafts that way you won't pull the wings off.
It will be a wild ride but handled properly it is not a death sentence. I once, on a pitch black night, flew straight into a biggy at 14000' in a Queenair doing a paper run between Moresby and Lae. It was a pretty clear night too...as far as I know that was the only CB anywhere. I popped out the far side above 18000' after a pretty wild 60-90 seconds or so.
The one thing I DIDN'T experience in that wild ride was high G because I wasn't worried about altitude nor even too stressed about small pitch excursions. Just wings level and approximate speed control with coarse power and ride it out.
A mate of mine once flew under the anvil of a Tcu in an aerostar at about FL180...might have been a little higher...and copped a face full of hail which literally took out the windscreen and banged up the leading edges and prop spinners. He survived and got it on the ground. Lesson? NEVER fly downwind of a Tcu...even 10nm is too close downwind.
Personally I have never experienced hail down low where you'll be typically flying in a Chieftain. I would be VERY reluctant to fly in the flight levels at night without a radar/strike finder unless the weather was severe clear and there was some moonlight.
If you're approaching a line (that you can't go around) of TS at night watch the lightning closely...when you see an area that stays dark that is the way through. I have done that many times and it works.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 2nd Aug 2008 at 17:05.