$50000+ Twin Driver??
Yep operators have screwed over pilots in GA for 30+ years, how can they now wonder why there is noone left to employ? Maybe it's time to close the doors or get some proper equipment that people might want to fly such as a King Air.
Sadly...
...while ever the competition can pay peanuts, we have limited room to move to keep our costs competitive.
We try to make it up in other ways... like paying in Cashews and Macadamias
We try to make it up in other ways... like paying in Cashews and Macadamias
Have you considered that if you pay proper salaries, the available pilots will choose to work for you rather than your competitors. Then when a charter comes up you will be the only one who can do it because your competitors won't have anyone available to actually do the flying even though they've got the aircraft ?
In the past the pilot has been the lowest paid person on board, nurses, miners, rig pigs, telstra technicians, electricity board workers etc all earnt far more. We've been grossly underpaid in the past which benefitted employers but has now led to a shortage. Double edged sword ?
In the past the pilot has been the lowest paid person on board, nurses, miners, rig pigs, telstra technicians, electricity board workers etc all earnt far more. We've been grossly underpaid in the past which benefitted employers but has now led to a shortage. Double edged sword ?
Metroman,
...thanks for the condescending tone - my turn.
Have you considered that there is more to than that?
...thanks for the condescending tone - my turn.
Have you considered that there is more to than that?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Operators or pilots? Or both?
Twenty years ago wages in GA were about the same as they are today. When I came to Alice Springs 30 odd years ago, my employer paid to shift my whole family and furniture etc. I was paid award rates or better and had annual airfares paid for me and my family to the capital city of my choice.
What have you blokes done to the industry???
What have you blokes done to the industry???
Pilots have effectively been subsidising GA companies by paying for their own training and working for low wages. Why don't you take someone on, pay for their CPL and pay a training wage while they're studying. Some airlines do this via cadetships.
Other industries train people with return of service expected and pay a training wage. Those that expect you to arrive fully qualified offer good starting pay and quick progression.
Which other industry costs so much to get into, and the employers expect you to work for so little.
Other industries train people with return of service expected and pay a training wage. Those that expect you to arrive fully qualified offer good starting pay and quick progression.
Which other industry costs so much to get into, and the employers expect you to work for so little.
Thread Starter
As far as I'm aware the company has been paying the award for a long time (someone else on here said 'since before it was cool').
A bonus is offered once you reach 400 multi (total). A lot of people already have an initial endo eg B58/55 or C310 and further endo's are given when required.
I've had a few comments that loyalty shown by a good employee and returned will make a healthy relationship. I know this is common sense but we all know it isn't so common....
A bonus is offered once you reach 400 multi (total). A lot of people already have an initial endo eg B58/55 or C310 and further endo's are given when required.
I've had a few comments that loyalty shown by a good employee and returned will make a healthy relationship. I know this is common sense but we all know it isn't so common....
Thanks for your infomation re wages, I fly props doing sunny tourist work. I wouldn't even concider getting out of bed for those wages. All single engine piston driver mates I know in oz get more doing day vfr. Award is minium legal wage, and don't think it's great paying it. Remember, $1 short, it's a federal crime.
Companies that have low turn over, it's not just higher pay, but company culture, one of doing it right. You will never stop progression. If you are in a "remote" place, well, you are climbing up a very steep hill indeed.
Good luck with your operation.
Hope you get crew.
Companies that have low turn over, it's not just higher pay, but company culture, one of doing it right. You will never stop progression. If you are in a "remote" place, well, you are climbing up a very steep hill indeed.
Good luck with your operation.
Hope you get crew.
As it has been said before, "Award wage=minimum wage." Funny how a good company is one who pays award, therefore minimum, wage. 
Bloggs: "Mate, I hear you got your first pilot gig."
Smitty: "Yeah, for a real good company, they pay minimum wage!"
Bloggs: "Don't they all have too?"
Doesn't sound that great when you say it how it is.
Bloggs: "Mate, I hear you got your first pilot gig."
Smitty: "Yeah, for a real good company, they pay minimum wage!"
Bloggs: "Don't they all have too?"
Doesn't sound that great when you say it how it is.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Third Barstool on the left
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another Perspective
back in 1999/01 I was CP of a CHTR company flying Chieftains (3175kg) - I was paid $35,000 which was better than award at the time. Sure beat the $150/wk I was paid as a Gr3 instructor before that! 
At that time, other guys landing their first Chieftain RPT gig (on less money) considered they had "made it" and would almost all go out and buy their first new car. Whatever turns you on, I suppose.
If you multiply that by average CPI of 3% for the intervening years, and 5% for this year, that comes up to $42,600 for 2008 - still above award.
As a matter of sociological interest (ie discussion point, not provocation):
Horatio is paying his C206 drivers $50k - The CPI is the CPI - what has happened that suddenly makes everyone (including me) think they deserve a pay rise of nearly 10%?
At that time, other guys landing their first Chieftain RPT gig (on less money) considered they had "made it" and would almost all go out and buy their first new car. Whatever turns you on, I suppose.
If you multiply that by average CPI of 3% for the intervening years, and 5% for this year, that comes up to $42,600 for 2008 - still above award.
As a matter of sociological interest (ie discussion point, not provocation):
Horatio is paying his C206 drivers $50k - The CPI is the CPI - what has happened that suddenly makes everyone (including me) think they deserve a pay rise of nearly 10%?
back in 1999/01 I was CP of a CHTR company flying Chieftains (3175kg) - I was paid $35,000 which was better than award at the time
Dr
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BackofBourke
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It should be noted that paying the award wage, also needs to include the instrument rating allowance etc. This is often not the case, as often only the base rate is paid. It makes a big difference.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a matter of sociological interest (ie discussion point, not provocation):
Horatio is paying his C206 drivers $50k - The CPI is the CPI - what has happened that suddenly makes everyone (including me) think they deserve a pay rise of nearly 10%?
Horatio is paying his C206 drivers $50k - The CPI is the CPI - what has happened that suddenly makes everyone (including me) think they deserve a pay rise of nearly 10%?
In '99 I was playing computer games in between naps on the couch at AirServices and being paid $45,000.
Seems unfair.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We try to make it up in other ways... like paying in Cashews and Macadamias
In 1993 I was getting $14/hr as a Control Desk Operator at the Sydney Opera House. The guys still there are on $25 now. I guess some jobs are ruled by what people will accept.
sc
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GA today is probably the most dysfunctional industry in Australia, at least at its lower rungs.
Its charges are based on what it thinks the client can afford, not on what is the true cost of the operation; it pays lip service to the GA Award (I think only the NT, ACT and perhaps WA is it mandatory); it is mostly run by enthusiasts who started their business to get their passion for flying paid by someone else; and it has no idea how it is going to fund its capital replacement when its finally flogged its aircraft to death.
Pilots wages are but one small aspect of the whole problem.
By way of contrast when I learnt to fly (nearly 40 years ago now) the aircraft were new, the instructors were a mixture of full and part time but the full time ones were paid sufficiently to raise a family without resorting to a second job. Admittedly, noone was going to get rich on it but it was a damn sight better than what is on offer today in GA.
Its charges are based on what it thinks the client can afford, not on what is the true cost of the operation; it pays lip service to the GA Award (I think only the NT, ACT and perhaps WA is it mandatory); it is mostly run by enthusiasts who started their business to get their passion for flying paid by someone else; and it has no idea how it is going to fund its capital replacement when its finally flogged its aircraft to death.
Pilots wages are but one small aspect of the whole problem.
By way of contrast when I learnt to fly (nearly 40 years ago now) the aircraft were new, the instructors were a mixture of full and part time but the full time ones were paid sufficiently to raise a family without resorting to a second job. Admittedly, noone was going to get rich on it but it was a damn sight better than what is on offer today in GA.
For comparison First year as RAAf Officer Cadet Under training = approx $40k Taxable income. Rent $130 per week. Wage will double after gaining "Wings". Zero Training costs although not much job security till training completed, fair trade IMO.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very true
Plovett has summed it up very well. There are also serious engineering problems, due to lack of money. GA is impoverished.
Some of this can be fixed, but this would require a serious attitudinal change. It is necessary to treat the GA industry with the respect it deserves. (shock horror)
GA is not just some city based flying schools that are only there to do ab initio training in order to build up a pool of airline wannabies. It is not just private aeroplanes owned by a few city silvertails.
It seems that is what most australians think it is.
And I become annoyed when I hear City based, government employees referring to the "GAFA" and saaying things like "if you are a gA pilot who connot find your way without gps" or "don't you think you should install adsb and be more professional."
There are some commercial anomolies in the outback (mainly caused by governments) which are hindering GA, and we have had a great influx of pilots and operators who are here only for short term gain.
Australian GA has not had a sound commercial base for a long time. But it can. And it must.
Some of this can be fixed, but this would require a serious attitudinal change. It is necessary to treat the GA industry with the respect it deserves. (shock horror)
GA is not just some city based flying schools that are only there to do ab initio training in order to build up a pool of airline wannabies. It is not just private aeroplanes owned by a few city silvertails.
It seems that is what most australians think it is.
And I become annoyed when I hear City based, government employees referring to the "GAFA" and saaying things like "if you are a gA pilot who connot find your way without gps" or "don't you think you should install adsb and be more professional."
There are some commercial anomolies in the outback (mainly caused by governments) which are hindering GA, and we have had a great influx of pilots and operators who are here only for short term gain.
Australian GA has not had a sound commercial base for a long time. But it can. And it must.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: QLD, Australia
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
back in 1999/01 I was CP of a CHTR company flying Chieftains (3175kg) - I was paid $35,000 which was better than award at the time. Sure beat the $150/wk I was paid as a Gr3 instructor before that!
If you multiply that by average CPI of 3% for the intervening years, and 5% for this year, that comes up to $42,600 for 2008 - still above award.
So $39,000 with yearly CPI increase takes us up to about $49,000.
There needs to be legislative changes to take away many of the 'cheap options'
if GA is to survive. As there is no replacement for the piston twin market really IFR charter should go to turbine only. However as long as people are driven by cost they will always go the cheapest option. I have seen some of Australians richest companies choose to fly in a 25 year old piston twin over a twin turbine on grounds of expense. Military did the same in the NT. They replaced a charter king air with some busted arse piston twin. If GA is going to survive they need to progress. In what other industry would you pay people $35000 to operate equipment that was built in the late 60 and 70's?
if GA is to survive. As there is no replacement for the piston twin market really IFR charter should go to turbine only. However as long as people are driven by cost they will always go the cheapest option. I have seen some of Australians richest companies choose to fly in a 25 year old piston twin over a twin turbine on grounds of expense. Military did the same in the NT. They replaced a charter king air with some busted arse piston twin. If GA is going to survive they need to progress. In what other industry would you pay people $35000 to operate equipment that was built in the late 60 and 70's?