ATPL Flight Planning Tricks, Short Cuts etc
?? You learn (or did learn) basic en-route PNR at CPL. You learn Off-track PNR for ATPL exams. Hence my post.
I am confused about your reply, frankly. If I didn't make myself clear - this ATPL exam is supposed to produce a competent pilot, one who can successfully plan by themselves en-route, to a sucessful outcome.
It appears that the exam is not guiding people to that standard. That means that the exam is faulty. I suspect that is because the people who know what they are doing are not setting the exam, but trying to teach students to meet an exam set by people who don't quite know what they are doing.
Given the new Westwind report (which I was interested in as I used to fly the type), I wondered if I could still run up a graphical flight progress chart, for PNR and CP calculations:
I am confused about your reply, frankly. If I didn't make myself clear - this ATPL exam is supposed to produce a competent pilot, one who can successfully plan by themselves en-route, to a sucessful outcome.
It appears that the exam is not guiding people to that standard. That means that the exam is faulty. I suspect that is because the people who know what they are doing are not setting the exam, but trying to teach students to meet an exam set by people who don't quite know what they are doing.
Given the new Westwind report (which I was interested in as I used to fly the type), I wondered if I could still run up a graphical flight progress chart, for PNR and CP calculations:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
?? You learn (or did learn) basic en-route PNR at CPL. You learn Off-track PNR for ATPL exams. Hence my post.
I am confused about your reply, frankly. If I didn't make myself clear - this ATPL exam is supposed to produce a competent pilot, one who can successfully plan by themselves en-route, to a sucessful outcome.
It appears that the exam is not guiding people to that standard. That means that the exam is faulty. I suspect that is because the people who know what they are doing are not setting the exam, but trying to teach students to meet an exam set by people who don't quite know what they are doing.
Given the new Westwind report (which I was interested in as I used to fly the type), I wondered if I could still run up a graphical flight progress chart, for PNR and CP calculations:
I am confused about your reply, frankly. If I didn't make myself clear - this ATPL exam is supposed to produce a competent pilot, one who can successfully plan by themselves en-route, to a sucessful outcome.
It appears that the exam is not guiding people to that standard. That means that the exam is faulty. I suspect that is because the people who know what they are doing are not setting the exam, but trying to teach students to meet an exam set by people who don't quite know what they are doing.
Given the new Westwind report (which I was interested in as I used to fly the type), I wondered if I could still run up a graphical flight progress chart, for PNR and CP calculations:
In relation to the Westward ditching, given the paucity of information that he had to work with (from memory a phone briefing re weather and no flight plan) it amazes me it got as far as it did. This is not to open up that discussion here but for a lot of that stuff (PNR, x/wind calls, DME arcs distance between radials etc.) I made up a cheat sheet that I laminated and put it into the Jepp binder I carried. With my memory there was no way I was going to memorise it all.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Between a Rock and a Hard Place
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Realize this is an ambiguous question but any thoughts would be appreciated. Wondering if anyone can give me a guide of study time. Say for example if I put in 4 hours a day for 4 weeks that should be adequate etc.
If you're a legend Braniac, 4 weeks may indeed be enough. But not for me.
Keep in mind that the fulltime Flight Planning course at Maroochydore is about 2 weeks long, with lots of homework each night, and many practise exams, using up most weekends. The instructor then recommends that you self-study for at least another two weeks, which includes a practise exam each day (which easily takes three hours each attempt).
It's very intensive, with speed and accuracy requiring priority
Keep in mind that the fulltime Flight Planning course at Maroochydore is about 2 weeks long, with lots of homework each night, and many practise exams, using up most weekends. The instructor then recommends that you self-study for at least another two weeks, which includes a practise exam each day (which easily takes three hours each attempt).
It's very intensive, with speed and accuracy requiring priority
If you're a legend Braniac, 4 weeks may indeed be enough. But not for me.
Keep in mind that the fulltime Flight Planning course at Maroochydore is about 2 weeks long, with lots of homework each night, and many practise exams, using up most weekends. The instructor then recommends that you self-study for at least another two weeks, which includes a practise exam each day (which easily takes three hours each attempt).
It's very intensive, with speed and accuracy requiring priority
Keep in mind that the fulltime Flight Planning course at Maroochydore is about 2 weeks long, with lots of homework each night, and many practise exams, using up most weekends. The instructor then recommends that you self-study for at least another two weeks, which includes a practise exam each day (which easily takes three hours each attempt).
It's very intensive, with speed and accuracy requiring priority
I was in the first class of Navy Signalman that didn't have to learn morse code or aircraft recognition. Many of our instructors claimed it was the beginning of the end and the loss of skills would be catastrophic. Well it wasn't. Within 6 months everyone was saying how great it was that morse code had been dropped.
The ATPL flight planning exam is way over the top and not relevant with regards to flight planning technology available today.
Much like morse code.
The ATPL flight planning exam is way over the top and not relevant with regards to flight planning technology available today.
Much like morse code.
At the end of the day, most jets still have performance data tables for climb, cruise, descent, 1inop, driftdown, gear down, etc. When you have the check or confirm when "Computer says noooo", all that FPL comes back to you - and you needed it.
Would be much better is CASA was clear about exam tolerances and published a set of suitable SOPs - then we'd have something to follow - other than hearsay and tradition.
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: SA
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isa variation effect on tas
Hi have been reading both AFT and Rob Avery and now am pretty confused.
Rob Avery seems to mention all ISA deviations need to be rounded to multiples of 3 for both fuel flow AND TAS... however in the casa atpl booklet and from what I've learnt form AFT it only mentions to do this for the fuel flows.. what does everyone else do for the Tas?
Thanks in advance
Rob Avery seems to mention all ISA deviations need to be rounded to multiples of 3 for both fuel flow AND TAS... however in the casa atpl booklet and from what I've learnt form AFT it only mentions to do this for the fuel flows.. what does everyone else do for the Tas?
Thanks in advance
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi have been reading both AFT and Rob Avery and now am pretty confused.
Rob Avery seems to mention all ISA deviations need to be rounded to multiples of 3 for both fuel flow AND TAS... however in the casa atpl booklet and from what I've learnt form AFT it only mentions to do this for the fuel flows.. what does everyone else do for the Tas?
Thanks in advance
Rob Avery seems to mention all ISA deviations need to be rounded to multiples of 3 for both fuel flow AND TAS... however in the casa atpl booklet and from what I've learnt form AFT it only mentions to do this for the fuel flows.. what does everyone else do for the Tas?
Thanks in advance
TAS= √(273-OAT°C)*39*M-1
E.g FL350, 0.82M, ISA+4
[√(273-50)]*(39*0.82)-1=477KTAS
Rob's method uses the published TAS in the POH accounted for ISA deviation instead of using the formula.
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yaw damp question
Hi all, long time viewer first time posting. For a yaw dampner inop flight do we consider the descent lets say we are at FL 310 and descend due yaw damp inop FL 280 do we consider this descent? it seems in some cases its required and some not. Thanks!
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: N/A
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
En-route descents are NOT required for any abnormal situation. This includes: DP, 1-INOP and Yaw Damper INOP. However, en-route descent planning is required for an 'air conditioning INOP' situation to either FL250 (east) or FL240 (west).
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: N/A
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Passed the exam recently. Here are some of my observations/tips:
- There were 17 questions in total, around 10 of them required type-in answers. All of the 5-markers were type-in.
- If I remember correctly, there were two 1-markers, three 2-markers, five 3-markers, four 4-markers and three 5-markers.
- I found that the most effective way to finish on time was to start with the 5-markers first, then work backwards to the 1-markers.
- There are some questions which don't require the use of the ERC. For example, there was a 5-marker which involved a forward planning from ALPHA to BRAVO via CHARLIE, where they gave you the tracks, distances, RSWT data and magnetic variations. This may be good news for those who aren't really a fan of mapwork. Personally, this saved me some precious seconds because I did not have to find the route on the map.
- There were two or three questions where I was able to save a lot of time by only completing a partial flight plan. These are usually questions which give you a 'planned weight' at a certain waypoint.
- There were a fair number of mid-flight PNR questions. Know your fuel policy well and remember to apply the correct fixed reserve (2250kg inflight) if it is a PNR/NO. Do not subtract taxi/shutdown fuel from the safe endurance for inflight PNR questions.
- RTFQ: For those questions which ask for fuel required, read the question very carefully to see if they are asking for the required minimum FUEL ONBOARD or FLIGHT FUEL on startup.
- With the RSWT winds, don't bother figuring out what the exact magnetic variation is for the sector. You'll just be eating into your precious exam time. Just round it to the nearest 5 degrees. For example, on a AD-PH flight, the initial climb will have you flying through a magnetic variation of 8E. In this case, just round it up to 10E. On the initial cruise, you'll encounter magnetic variations of 7E, 6E, 5E, 4E and 3E. Round to 5E. On the final cruise segments, you'll get variations of 2E, 1E, 0E, 1W and 2W. Round to 0E (i.e. just copy down the RSWT from the screen). However, if you are given those non-ERC ALPHA-BRAVO questions as mentioned above, just use the exact magnetic variation they give you in the question and apply it to the RSWT. I used this for my exam and it proved to be of sufficient accuracy.
- Just a refresher: If you end up cruising at FL210 (right inbetween the two RSWT levels), use winds from FL235, not FL185. No interpolation required.
Last edited by Time Map Ground; 29th Jun 2019 at 08:01.
Passed the exam recently. Here are some of my observations/tips:
- There were 17 questions in total, around 10 of them required type-in answers. All of the 5-markers were type-in.
- If I remember correctly, there were two 1-markers, three 2-markers, five 3-markers, four 4-markers and three 5-markers.
- I found that the most effective way to finish on time was to start with the 5-markers first, then work backwards to the 1-markers.
- There are some questions which don't require the use of the ERC. For example, there was a 5-marker which involved a forward planning from ALPHA to BRAVO via CHARLIE, where they gave you the tracks, distances, RSWT data and magnetic variations. This may be good news for those who aren't really a fan of mapwork. Personally, this saved me some precious seconds because I did not have to find the route on the map.
- There were two or three questions where I was able to save a lot of time by only completing a partial flight plan. These are usually questions which give you a 'planned weight' at a certain waypoint.
- There were a fair number of mid-flight PNR questions. Know your fuel policy well and remember to apply the correct fixed reserve (2250kg inflight) if it is a PNR/NO. Do not subtract taxi/shutdown fuel from the safe endurance for inflight PNR questions.
- RTFQ: For those questions which ask for fuel required, read the question very carefully to see if they are asking for the required minimum FUEL ONBOARD or FLIGHT FUEL on startup.
- With the RSWT winds, don't bother figuring out what the exact magnetic variation is for the sector. You'll just be eating into your precious exam time. Just round it to the nearest 5 degrees. For example, on a AD-PH flight, the initial climb will have you flying through a magnetic variation of 8E. In this case, just round it up to 10E. On the initial cruise, you'll encounter magnetic variations of 7E, 6E, 5E, 4E and 3E. Round to 5E. On the final cruise segments, you'll get variations of 2E, 1E, 0E, 1W and 2W. Round to 0E (i.e. just copy down the RSWT from the screen). However, if you are given those non-ERC ALPHA-BRAVO questions as mentioned above, just use the exact magnetic variation they give you in the question and apply it to the RSWT. I used this for my exam and it proved to be of sufficient accuracy.
- Just a refresher: If you end up cruising at FL210 (right inbetween the two RSWT levels), use winds from FL235, not FL185. No interpolation required.
Awesome post thanks for taking the time to write that, will be sitting this exam in the next couple of months and those little tips I imagine will come in very handy
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The key to passing... Rob Avery
The best tip I can give you... Go to Rob Avery. He has absolutely nailed the formula for beating this exam. Sat in on his class earlier this year, honestly couldn't make this subject clearer. I think he's back in Bankstown this October.
WTF
Cannot for the life of me answer this question:
You are planning a flight from AUCKLAND (NZAA) to SYDNEY (YSSY).
You have the following planning data:
Maximum performance limited BRW AUCKLAND..... 85550 kg
Maximum performance limited LW SYDNEY............. 71450 kg
Basic Weight ............................................................ ... 47250 kg
SYDNEY is SUITABLE. AUCKLAND is ACCEPTABLE, but may be considered SUITABLE if 60 minutes holding fuel is carried.
Flight fuel for Normal Operations is 13950 kg.
Flight fuel for Normal Operations to the NZAA-YSSY CP/1-INOP then One Engine Inoperative Operations (1-INOP) from the CP is 14900 kg.
Flight fuel for Normal Operations to the NZAA-YSSY CP (Depressurised) then Depressurised from the CP is 15750 kg.
The maximum payload for the flight is closest to -16410 kg
16500 kg
16250 kg
16160 kg
16100 kg
The answer is 16160. If someone could explain how to get there I'll be forever in your debt.
You are planning a flight from AUCKLAND (NZAA) to SYDNEY (YSSY).
You have the following planning data:
Maximum performance limited BRW AUCKLAND..... 85550 kg
Maximum performance limited LW SYDNEY............. 71450 kg
Basic Weight ............................................................ ... 47250 kg
SYDNEY is SUITABLE. AUCKLAND is ACCEPTABLE, but may be considered SUITABLE if 60 minutes holding fuel is carried.
Flight fuel for Normal Operations is 13950 kg.
Flight fuel for Normal Operations to the NZAA-YSSY CP/1-INOP then One Engine Inoperative Operations (1-INOP) from the CP is 14900 kg.
Flight fuel for Normal Operations to the NZAA-YSSY CP (Depressurised) then Depressurised from the CP is 15750 kg.
The maximum payload for the flight is closest to -16410 kg
16500 kg
16250 kg
16160 kg
16100 kg
The answer is 16160. If someone could explain how to get there I'll be forever in your debt.
From memory, following a yaw dam failure they always ask you to plan a normal descent to either FL280 or FL290.
The following users liked this post:
A lot of good tips already.
Having spent more than a few sleepless nights for this exam, I though I’d put my two cents in now it’s all done.
I passed well - first go - this was not expected as I’ve been a middle of the road student most of the way through my other exams . I had done a sh1tload of study though - far more than any other subject.
What you need is to be able to look at a question and not have any doubt as to what it’s asking - being so time critical you need to do enough questions to just know where to start.
Applying the correct fuel policy is vital - Be very careful if it’s asking for RAMP or BRW fuel.
RTFQ - write down the pertinent info - you would be amazed how many times In the practice exams I planned the wrong direction or reversed tracks or added wind speed onto my track!! Slow down - there is time to check as long as you’ve got some speed to your process . (I did start to lose my marbles studying for this one - go fast and you lose accuracy , go slow and you don’t finish - it does all come together in time)
By the time I sat the exam I could do 5 markers in about 20 minutes. I had 3 fivers in the exam and I was far more careful with tracks and winds etc and they took me just over 1 hour 10 mins to complete - but I got them right. There’s 30% in the bag.
if you come across a question with a climb, one long leg and a descent, be extremely accurate with your GS. The penalty for a long leg with a rubbish GS calc is big enough to blow it. A question like that seems simple but it’s easy to butcher it.
Id made a plan to dump really time consuming questions or any question that stumped me if It was getting tight (hold table for example) . Losing 2 marks to gain 10 minutes of faffing is well worth it.
The exam was tricky timewise, but honestly was pretty straightforward - I’m sure that comes down to over preparing and I definitely got a question base that suited me (luck of the draw) but it wasn’t that bad..
One final thing . Don’t be brutalised by the practice exams - more than any other, this exam is the one you will get 50% or 90% - the questions are so heavily weighted .
On the day I was prepared to fail and this did relax me (strange as that may sound) I knew I’d prepared well and just needed to give it a go.
Doing the ATPLs was the most demoralising experience I’ve had in aviation - so impractical to current ops , such a drain of time , money and energy, but it just has to be done - my whining about it didn’t help anything - If you have the chance, do them all before you have a job, family and other commitments as the two year window is not that much if you get caught up on a subject .
It is doable - if I can do it anyone can.
Good luck.
Having spent more than a few sleepless nights for this exam, I though I’d put my two cents in now it’s all done.
I passed well - first go - this was not expected as I’ve been a middle of the road student most of the way through my other exams . I had done a sh1tload of study though - far more than any other subject.
What you need is to be able to look at a question and not have any doubt as to what it’s asking - being so time critical you need to do enough questions to just know where to start.
Applying the correct fuel policy is vital - Be very careful if it’s asking for RAMP or BRW fuel.
RTFQ - write down the pertinent info - you would be amazed how many times In the practice exams I planned the wrong direction or reversed tracks or added wind speed onto my track!! Slow down - there is time to check as long as you’ve got some speed to your process . (I did start to lose my marbles studying for this one - go fast and you lose accuracy , go slow and you don’t finish - it does all come together in time)
By the time I sat the exam I could do 5 markers in about 20 minutes. I had 3 fivers in the exam and I was far more careful with tracks and winds etc and they took me just over 1 hour 10 mins to complete - but I got them right. There’s 30% in the bag.
if you come across a question with a climb, one long leg and a descent, be extremely accurate with your GS. The penalty for a long leg with a rubbish GS calc is big enough to blow it. A question like that seems simple but it’s easy to butcher it.
Id made a plan to dump really time consuming questions or any question that stumped me if It was getting tight (hold table for example) . Losing 2 marks to gain 10 minutes of faffing is well worth it.
The exam was tricky timewise, but honestly was pretty straightforward - I’m sure that comes down to over preparing and I definitely got a question base that suited me (luck of the draw) but it wasn’t that bad..
One final thing . Don’t be brutalised by the practice exams - more than any other, this exam is the one you will get 50% or 90% - the questions are so heavily weighted .
On the day I was prepared to fail and this did relax me (strange as that may sound) I knew I’d prepared well and just needed to give it a go.
Doing the ATPLs was the most demoralising experience I’ve had in aviation - so impractical to current ops , such a drain of time , money and energy, but it just has to be done - my whining about it didn’t help anything - If you have the chance, do them all before you have a job, family and other commitments as the two year window is not that much if you get caught up on a subject .
It is doable - if I can do it anyone can.
Good luck.
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Congrats, well done -)
You will find as you go thru yr career that most of the ATPL subjects where a waste of time!
I wonder how many of us old codgers could pass any if the ATPL exams these days? Scary thought! -
Flying a plane is the easy bit, doing the constant hairy fairy ground school days in an Airline job will put your feet to sleep trust me! ..lolol
You will find as you go thru yr career that most of the ATPL subjects where a waste of time!
I wonder how many of us old codgers could pass any if the ATPL exams these days? Scary thought! -
Flying a plane is the easy bit, doing the constant hairy fairy ground school days in an Airline job will put your feet to sleep trust me! ..lolol
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Perth
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of good tips already.
Having spent more than a few sleepless nights for this exam, I though I’d put my two cents in now it’s all done.
I passed well - first go - this was not expected as I’ve been a middle of the road student most of the way through my other exams . I had done a sh1tload of study though - far more than any other subject.
What you need is to be able to look at a question and not have any doubt as to what it’s asking - being so time critical you need to do enough questions to just know where to start.
Applying the correct fuel policy is vital - Be very careful if it’s asking for RAMP or BRW fuel.
RTFQ - write down the pertinent info - you would be amazed how many times In the practice exams I planned the wrong direction or reversed tracks or added wind speed onto my track!! Slow down - there is time to check as long as you’ve got some speed to your process . (I did start to lose my marbles studying for this one - go fast and you lose accuracy , go slow and you don’t finish - it does all come together in time)
By the time I sat the exam I could do 5 markers in about 20 minutes. I had 3 fivers in the exam and I was far more careful with tracks and winds etc and they took me just over 1 hour 10 mins to complete - but I got them right. There’s 30% in the bag.
if you come across a question with a climb, one long leg and a descent, be extremely accurate with your GS. The penalty for a long leg with a rubbish GS calc is big enough to blow it. A question like that seems simple but it’s easy to butcher it.
Id made a plan to dump really time consuming questions or any question that stumped me if It was getting tight (hold table for example) . Losing 2 marks to gain 10 minutes of faffing is well worth it.
The exam was tricky timewise, but honestly was pretty straightforward - I’m sure that comes down to over preparing and I definitely got a question base that suited me (luck of the draw) but it wasn’t that bad..
One final thing . Don’t be brutalised by the practice exams - more than any other, this exam is the one you will get 50% or 90% - the questions are so heavily weighted .
On the day I was prepared to fail and this did relax me (strange as that may sound) I knew I’d prepared well and just needed to give it a go.
Doing the ATPLs was the most demoralising experience I’ve had in aviation - so impractical to current ops , such a drain of time , money and energy, but it just has to be done - my whining about it didn’t help anything - If you have the chance, do them all before you have a job, family and other commitments as the two year window is not that much if you get caught up on a subject .
It is doable - if I can do it anyone can.
Good luck.
Having spent more than a few sleepless nights for this exam, I though I’d put my two cents in now it’s all done.
I passed well - first go - this was not expected as I’ve been a middle of the road student most of the way through my other exams . I had done a sh1tload of study though - far more than any other subject.
What you need is to be able to look at a question and not have any doubt as to what it’s asking - being so time critical you need to do enough questions to just know where to start.
Applying the correct fuel policy is vital - Be very careful if it’s asking for RAMP or BRW fuel.
RTFQ - write down the pertinent info - you would be amazed how many times In the practice exams I planned the wrong direction or reversed tracks or added wind speed onto my track!! Slow down - there is time to check as long as you’ve got some speed to your process . (I did start to lose my marbles studying for this one - go fast and you lose accuracy , go slow and you don’t finish - it does all come together in time)
By the time I sat the exam I could do 5 markers in about 20 minutes. I had 3 fivers in the exam and I was far more careful with tracks and winds etc and they took me just over 1 hour 10 mins to complete - but I got them right. There’s 30% in the bag.
if you come across a question with a climb, one long leg and a descent, be extremely accurate with your GS. The penalty for a long leg with a rubbish GS calc is big enough to blow it. A question like that seems simple but it’s easy to butcher it.
Id made a plan to dump really time consuming questions or any question that stumped me if It was getting tight (hold table for example) . Losing 2 marks to gain 10 minutes of faffing is well worth it.
The exam was tricky timewise, but honestly was pretty straightforward - I’m sure that comes down to over preparing and I definitely got a question base that suited me (luck of the draw) but it wasn’t that bad..
One final thing . Don’t be brutalised by the practice exams - more than any other, this exam is the one you will get 50% or 90% - the questions are so heavily weighted .
On the day I was prepared to fail and this did relax me (strange as that may sound) I knew I’d prepared well and just needed to give it a go.
Doing the ATPLs was the most demoralising experience I’ve had in aviation - so impractical to current ops , such a drain of time , money and energy, but it just has to be done - my whining about it didn’t help anything - If you have the chance, do them all before you have a job, family and other commitments as the two year window is not that much if you get caught up on a subject .
It is doable - if I can do it anyone can.
Good luck.
