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ATPL Flight Planning Tricks, Short Cuts etc

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ATPL Flight Planning Tricks, Short Cuts etc

Old 17th Sep 2008, 06:20
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
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CPDPs are basically gift marks.

For some sample questions, you can have a look on the CASA website, but any study material you have, will have practise questions in them.

Lionel, Nathan, Rob and Gavin all give you a good feel for how the actual questions will be worded, and what they're looking for. If you can do their questions accurately, you'll do the exam accurately too.

What you need to do, mingalababya, is be accurate on the first time you crunch any numbers. Don't go back and check, unless you really need to. If it's just a confidence thing, try a few practise questions without going back and checking, and see how good you can actually do it. Saves a lot of time when you only have to do each question once, instead of twice.
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Old 17th Sep 2008, 14:49
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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No worries mingalababya (what's your name mean? Am I being culturally insensitive by asking?).

I didn't get any CP questions on my exam (except for one really weird one where it was give but I had to plan Norm Ops to it and then OEI from it, basically just a straight forward plan but worded in such a way as to take a long long time to get my head around it... tossers).

So here's the wording of a question which I think would require Holding Fuel for DP ops except that the question directs you to just overfly it (Cairns to Alice overflying Mt Isa):

Mt Isa is forecast to be Suitable for the period of possible use if weather holding is carried to allow for INTERmittent deteriorations in cloud base and visibility due thunderstorms.
Another fun one (nowhere in the question is there any mention of the words Acceptable or Suitable with respect to the destination aerodrome, but it is a PNR so you actually don't go there anyway):

Hobart airport is experiencing TEMPOrary weather conditions during the period of possible use, which will at times be below the alternate minima, but not below the landing minima.
Wow, I forced myself to have an answer to all 5 point questions by 20 minutes on the timer today (individually, not as part of a practice exam). I averaged 22 minutes and got them all right, some small mistakes but only EMZW by a tonne which was damn close for fuel burn and even closer for PNRs. Like mingalababya I really feel the need to check and recheck so this was a good lesson. There is really no substitute for doing lots and lots of practice questions, it makes it easier to see the real story behind the numbers and methods.

On a technical note I realised today that in all of the PNR questions I examined; once I had a difference in flight fuels (my planned vs what I ought to have) I could just use generic SARs (Norm Ops 10 + 10 = 20, OEI 10 + 11 = 21, DP 10 + 13 = 23) in place of the actual SGRs and still get the right answers. Maybe I got lucky, perhaps it's not worth the time saved (about 1.5 minutes). Also realised that SGR can come from two sources (one of which can sometimes be teased from the question itself), SGR = Fuel Flow / GS or Zone Fuel / Zone NM.

One PNR question gave a BRW, a GW at TOC, then cruise reporting point 1, and cruise reporting point 2. My PNR guess was about 100 nm past the second reporting point so I just calculated the fuel burn between points one and two (difference in GWs given in question) divided by the nm to get an SGR and then applied that to the next 100 nm to my PNR. Sure I might have had a different EMZW if I'd done I the hard way but over 100 nm it was going to make bugger all difference. After that slick and easy calculation all I had to do was fly home from the guessed PNR at FL130. I had a hefty amount of fuel left to burn so after the correction I was off by about 13 nm from the correct answer (and about 140 nm from the nearest wrong answer).

By Jove I think he's got it!

Now one that's really pissing me off:

Pre-flight planning for One Inop PNR Cairns to Alice via Mt Isa. I've worked out a GW for the start of the OEI return to Cairns of 72,426, (the answer from the book comes to 72,450) so I round down to 72,000. It is ISA+3 so I round that to ISA+5 (and interploate). I plug this into the OEI Alt Capability chart and I come up with 25,440 feet or for a flight to the East FL250. Rob Avery chose FL230 (and burnt a lot more fuel).

I got the answer right (reference dist Mt Isa choices were 345, 270, 615, 180or 100) but I was still 15 nm off of his answer. Did I miss something? If you've done the AFT course and have seen the Rob Avery way of doing do you think that with his method he simply burnt a bit less fuel getting to the PNR (50 kg would do it) and round up to 73,000 kg for the table. Even old Rob seemed to have the same fuel flow as me but still went for the lower level (he doesn't give a GW just an SGR... that's his method I suppose).

Good night possoms.

FRQ CB
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Old 18th Sep 2008, 09:47
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Booked my exam for next Tuesday

I had similar issues with different FL selections in 1EngInop PNR's. I use a TAT comparison method rather than the tables on page 5 - 6. Although was told by Nathan that CASA use that table for FL selection. Makes no difference normally, either way I still end up being able to get the answer right so I think it doesn't matter as long as we are within 2000ft of the right level. I guess sometimes even they get things wrong
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Old 18th Sep 2008, 11:57
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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I use a TAT comparison method
Ploise explain. Something to do with going to the OEI LRC pages and comparing your SZW and TAT/OAT with available FLs? I've not heard of that one before. What are the rules? (If using a forecast OAT do you have to round to nearest Mach no and elicit the TAT?) Does this save time? I am resitting on Tuesday morning, I wonder if it is worth learning a new method.

FRQ CB
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Old 18th Sep 2008, 13:07
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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FRQ, - no, don't try and learn new rules now. You already know what you're doing - you just ran out of time. Don't get confused by this method - its so confusing Ive never heard of it myself.
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Old 18th Sep 2008, 14:50
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up

i sat the exam yesterday 2nd attempt (1st attempt 68%) and got 92%. I did it self study from word go . It took 2.5 hours and I never rushed. 17 questions, 3 five markers, 4 four markers, 4 three markers, 4 two markers and 2 one markers. I basically practiced nathans sample exams 2nd time around for about 4 hours a day over 2 weeks and it covered every type of question in the exam. If you can do nathans sample questions, you will pass the exam easy. I worked on 20 minutes for a 5 marker. in yesterdays exam there were pnr's, CP's, altitude capability, tail skid extension etc. Just like in his trial exams.
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Old 19th Sep 2008, 03:25
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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thanks for that info there tiger, I was a bit skeptical as to whether his trial exams were enough to get me through after hearing our friend FRQ failed Now with regained confidence, back to more F planning study, on a Friday to

FRQ, stick with your method, but the method I speak of goes like this:

Situation:
  • Your GW @ the PNR2E is 72 Tonnes
  • The MET for the next LEG back @FL235 = ISA + 5

Refer Page 5 -13


FL250: STD TAT = -11

At 72 Tonnes, MAX TAT AT WHICH EPR CAN BE SET = -0

Therefore we can accept an Isa Deviation of up to and including ISA + 11, since we are only ISA + 5 we can do this level.


What About FL270:

FL270: STD TAT = -16

At 72 Tonnes, MAX TAT AT WHICH EPR CAN BE SET = -17

Therefore we require an Isa Deviation of atleast ISA - 1 or COLDER to operate at this level.

FL290 @ 72T there isn't any data so thats easy, therefore not possible.
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Old 19th Sep 2008, 05:29
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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I was a bit skeptical as to whether his trial exams were enough to get me through after hearing our friend FRQ failed
Yeah, I might sound like I know what I'm talking about but it's pretty much 90% BS and 10% luck.

Actually, I'm shite at tests. Always have been.

~FRQ CB
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Old 19th Sep 2008, 05:40
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Hey Tiger, I sat the exam yesterday also and got 92% too.

I got 3- 5 markers, 2- 4 markers, 5- 3 markers, 5-2 markers and 2-1 markers. This is my first attempt after a solid week of going through practice exams. I went through unsw and they prepare you really well. They do give harder questions than the real exam.

On the first question I did, which was a 5 marker pnr, I spent over half an hour because I realized near the end I read the question wrong. I kinda freaked out and really thought I would run out of time. By the end though, I had half an hour left and felt somewhat confident. I somehow managed to get 2 simple questions wrong. One was determine FL to cruise at and another was determine distance for the climb.

My advice is to do heaps and heaps of practice questions and RTFQ.
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Old 19th Sep 2008, 12:30
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Hi mingalababya, sorry about my absence. I've been busy with my MECIR but now that's done.

I still don't have my technical notes with me but I will try to give you some advice about exam tactics, especially regarding time spent on questions.

As one guru said, do not use the flight planning tables. They get shredded at the end of the exam and so no marks for those. Just draw the box diagram and allow enough width for each relevant segment of the flight.

Do more practice questions and you will find familiar routes being asked over and over again. The numbers will stick in your mind, eg 1066, 418 and so on ... you won't need to pick out those tiny numbers in the exam any more. If there is a slight variation to the route, just use your own memorised number, it is close enough for the correct answer.

Each segment should have an imaginary table underneath it but don't waste time drawing lines or labelling units (eg tonnes, kg, kg/nm etc). Each mini-table should be in the same format with the same items in the same order (eg EMZW, SAR etc), so you can pick out what you want later. If fuel weight is what you need, circle it and at the end add all the circles together to get your answer.

Needless to say, know the rules really really well so you don't doubt your application of them. Look through from the begining of this thread and you will see that each parameter falls within a narrow range, so eg if you find you are burning only 1000 kgs/hr then something's wrong. If you do not get the answer after about 15 minutes, skip it and come back after you've done all the other questions.
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Old 20th Sep 2008, 13:04
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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I just thought that I'd mention that I added another tip to a previous post (click here to read and go to the 5th bullet point). Basically with regards to using the 15 minutes of practice exam time for preparation I thought that measuring a few common trips could be beneficial with a bit of luck. Some people opine simply writing the distance on your ERC but I don't think I've got the guts.

And no, I don't plan on using all of my ideas on the day,

~FRQ CB
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Old 20th Sep 2008, 13:41
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FRQ Charlie Bravo View Post
Basically depending on which edition of the ERCs High you use
pleasepleasepleaseplease use the current edition!
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Old 20th Sep 2008, 14:36
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I wrote down all the distances while i was doing trial exams and highlighted the common routes. The supervisor didnt check my ERC, only checked the 727 book, but i wrote the distances really small just in case
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Old 20th Sep 2008, 17:53
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, I do use current ERCs but the problem is with all the practice exams. Some require TACs (no longer permitted in the exam) and some refer to non-existent reporting points/airways (like the one I bought 4 days ago which refers to PONAN (out of DN), Y19 (PH - AD), Y118 and W109 (AD - MEL)). Not a big deal just annoying, next time I'll check the copyright date (I accept some blame but seriously, the folks at Western Airmotive should be ashamed to have an 11 year old ATPL FLP book on the shelves, at least mark it down for clearance or something).

On an another matter I've got a 5 point PNR question I'd like to bounce off of somebody. Having studied AFT notes I'm really butting heads with some Rob Avery answers (and I just cannot understand his methods). For example I got a dist to PNR which was right in the middle of two available answers. No matter what I did to tidy up nothing really changed so I reasoned a guess (wrongly). I was 24 nm off one way and 26 the other way and there's nothing I can see that would have changed my answer other than simply selecting a different initial guessed PNR to change my EMZW and on and on and on. It's 2 am and I am so sick of that damned blue book (mostly I am annoyed because I really feel like I understand the subject).

So yeah, if you'd like to try a 5 point PNR I'd be more than happy to PM it to you. (Besides, I think that copyrights expire after 100 years so this book hasn't got long left. Project Gutenburg here I come.).

~FRQ CB
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Old 21st Sep 2008, 02:11
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Sure, i'll try it. I found out that most pnr's I find are usually less than the answer, so i would go up.
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Old 21st Sep 2008, 07:27
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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B727 Manual page 6-3 (Emergency) 2 engines inop Cruise Range Capability chart. My manual (2001 copy) must be a photocopy of a photocopy of the serviette which has some residual ink on it from the time when it was once used to save somebody's place in their photocopied manual (which would explain the coffee stain ring).

I can't make out the numbers in the middle of the chart: "Start Driftdown Gross Weight ~ 1000kg" It looks like maybe 65, 75 and 85 from the bottom up. My Rob Avery exam had a question (the answer to which has allowed me allowed me to deduce that the middle number must be something between 73 and 76... must be 75).

Any takers?

Maybe CASA should think about putting out some new manuals (truer to the "original").

~FRQ CB
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Old 21st Sep 2008, 14:38
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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FRQ, I actually think its the other way - 65, 75, 85, from the top, down.

Reason being, if your GW is up around the 85 tonne mark, you're not going to be as high to start with, so your driftdown will be quicker - the bottom line only allows for short driftdowns.

I dont know. I never use that page.

For a good laugh at the quality of the book, though, have a look at page 2 - 6 and see if you can find anything there that perhaps is out of place...
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Old 22nd Sep 2008, 09:59
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Fuel required for CPDP

Maybe a silly question, but my brain is numb from study...

Scenario is flight DN to ML via o'head AS. CPDP distance is given for AS-ML sector, as is data for overhead AS, and BRW.

Objective is to calc total fuel required to cover the DP scenario.

Both AS and ML require 30 mins INTER fuel to become Suitable.. The solution calculates flight onwards from CP to ML. In this case, holding is irrelevant due to DP rules, so it makes sense to continue to ML. However.........

If this was a OEI situation, and the destination (ML) was Acceptable and required 30mins to become Suitable, and AS was Suitable, would you plan to AS, for the purposes of calculating fuel required for DP scenario in accordance with company policy?

Some questions of this type specify which airport to return to, but this question got me thinking.

So do you plan to the airport with most favourable conditions?
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Old 22nd Sep 2008, 12:20
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Critical Points are a time consideration.
Point of No Returns are a fuel consideration.

It doesn't matter whether you are going to need holding at the destination or not - what you're working out in a CP problem is the time taken to fly to either airport - not the time taken to pull up at the gate.

If one of the airports needs holding fuel, well, carry holding fuel.

Say you had your engine failure at a point other than the CP. If it's before the CP, you turn around and fly home. If it's after the CP, you keep going.

If this was a OEI situation, and the destination (ML) was Acceptable and required 30mins to become Suitable, and AS was Suitable, would you plan to AS, for the purposes of calculating fuel required for DP scenario in accordance with company policy?
OK, say you had your engine failure 15 minutes before you got the the CP.

Would you then have enough fuel to go on to Alice and land with all reserves intact?
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Old 23rd Sep 2008, 08:30
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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Passed What a #$*& of a subject though. BTW FRQ I got that PNR you were talking about for a return to YPAD via a difference track. In the last 20 minutes I re did it and changed by answer and got it right. Had to be one of the worst worded ones ive seen so far. "ignore lateral distance blah blah blah". I just flew out NO, then dropped down to the return route on the way back which was pretty much the same distance anyway.

One question you may get is finding your TAS, your given a MN, TAT, FL. But told you encounter severe turbulence and reduce to VB (Turbulence penetration speed). Don't use the given MN, enter your buffet chart @ the FL and determine VB, I think its 280kts up to FL 334 then .80M above.
Get your Speed if its 280KIAS, set it to your FL on your CR3, get a MN, then get a TAS from that MN.

Best of luck to anyone about to sit it
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