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ATPL Flight Planning Tricks, Short Cuts etc

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ATPL Flight Planning Tricks, Short Cuts etc

Old 27th Aug 2008, 06:13
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Holding Fuel for Works in Progress

Abnormal Ops holding fuel not reqd for holding but what about Works In Progress? I should think that WIP holding fuel would need to be carried for all abnormal ops (massive bit of equipment blocking the RWY which can only be moved so fast etc). Then again an abnormal cruise from the CP should give plenty of time for the requirement to be removed and if it happened near the aerodrome then the vast majority of the flight was at a more efficient SGR and now the difference between N.O. fixed reserve and Abnormal fixed reserve would add 1050 kg (DP; 15-19 min holding not including 10% CR) or 1800 kg(OEI; 25-30 min holding).

I could 'what if' scenarios all day but I'd rather just know if anybody has a concrete answer.

FRQ CB

Another interesting one to which I don't expect any reply: Operation Pitch Black (Darwin every June from memory) AIC declares that aeroplanes declaring an emergency (so definitely not one just experiencing abnormal ops) are not necessarily guaranteed priority over exercise (military) aircraft (no doubt due to the inability to contact those operating without radios). What kind of pre-flight considerations do you think come into play there? (AC has had to fly DP so misses window and now has got to hold but holding wasn't originally reqd).
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 06:19
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Neither of those scenarios, or anything similar, is on the Flight Planning exam...
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 06:53
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

Thanks. A bit paranoid perhaps, I'm just convinced that somebody is always looking for a way to screw me! (Relax I'm from CASA; I'm here to help.)

FRQ CB
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 07:20
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Hey guys .. I'm another new ATPL Flight Planning exam candidate here .. so thanks so much for the tips.

Whilst on the topic of holding fuel for abnormal operations, is it correct that you plan to carry holding fuel for INTER and TEMPO conditions when you have 1 engine in op, but not for when you have a depressurization situation? If this is the case, then it seems to imply that you land immediately regardless of the weather conditions if you have a depressurization emergency.

And another question .. how many questions are there in the exam and how many are there requiring a full flight plan to be completed? The reason I ask is that it's taking me about 45 minutes to complete just one question asking to plan a flight from A to B and calculate how much fuel is required to be carried on board at start-up. At this rate, I'll only have time for 4 questions .. so do I need to increase my work rate? Hopefully there'll only be one of these questions.

Keep the tips coming ..
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 15:25
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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edit:

Mingalababya,

I'm very sorry to have possibly lead you astray with this post (original still posted below). Despite what I said making sense in the real world it was wrong. The correct answer is that DEPRESSURISED PLANNING TO AN ACCEPTABLE (OR SUITABLE) AERODROME NEVER NEEDS ANY HOLDING FUEL. Not for pre-flight planning and not for in-flight planning. Refer again to page 1-16A specifically Paragraph 12.2) which for DP Ops says where Inter or Tempo are forecast but are not below the landing minima the aerodrome is considered to be "
an 'acceptable' aerodrome during these periods and no holding fuel is required."

It's a pretty lousy abuse of the English language but that's what they want. The following paragraph makes another interesting scenario to note (I do not THINK that this is on the exam but it may be) is that they can still make DP Holding fuel reqd if they say that the aerodrome is closed for Inter or Tempo periods due to weather (that's really really really bad weather as in below Landing Minima)

I hope that this clears things up. Sorry if I messed you around. Please find below my original and (almost) un-edited post.

FRQ CB


No, refer to page 1-16A in the 727 manual. It is only the holding fuel for traffic which you will be exempt from carrying (the logic being that if you lose an engine or have suffered a compression failure then ATC will move you to the front of the queue for landing thereby obviating the need for holding fuel)(Wrong, see above). As the Inter and Tempo are weather induced you must assume that you will arrive and be unable to land and have to hold for that amount of time (in whatever configuration you are in).(Wrong, see above)

What I think you may be thinking about is the difference between the Contingency Reserve for Normal Ops vs DP (10% vs Nil), the Fixed Reserve for Normal Ops vs OEI or DP (3300kg vs 1500kg or 2250kg) or the fact that there's only need to calculate Fixed Reserve for the alternate aerodrome if it's needed.

The text I am studying explains the first bit really well (I paraphrase):

These rules may sound strange but the logic behind a more stringent alternate requirement for OEI arrivals compared to DP is so that the aircraft with only two engines will always have sufficient fuel to proceed to a Suitable aerodrome (you beaut weather well above minima) and be virtually guranteed of not having to make a OEI missed approach due to not becoming visual. There is no particular performance problem with DP missed approaches and the relaxed weather requirements mean that more airports will be available as alternates for a depressurisation which will ease the fuel critical nature of a depressurisation.
(with apologies to Advanced Flight Theory, Flight Planning, p. 58)

The above applies only to a pilot sitting on the ground making a plan. Once airborne then, and only then, does page 1-16 para 9. come into effect (recalc of Normal Ops fuel requirements).

You're reference to a "depressurization emergency" makes me want to make one pertinent point: It is important to remember that when you plan for these failures there is every expectation that you are going to make an uneventful landing somewhere; you're not not simply making the most of an emergency situation (for the purpose of the ATPL exam these are covered in the very back of the manual and only takes up 3 pages). What we are looking at is handling abnormal operations (the use of the word "Emergency" is intentionally avoided I think) so you don't just go looking to "land immediately regardless of the weather conditions".

For what it's worth...

FRQ CB

PS If anybody thinks I've said something wrong please pipe up and let me (and everybody else reading this) know.

PPS Mingalababya, feel free to PM me and if you're in Perth definitely PM me.

Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo; 16th Sep 2008 at 04:35. Reason: Hungry for some crow! (I made a big mistake here and need to fix it.)
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Old 28th Aug 2008, 18:07
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Step climbs

So how do I know when to step climb? Is it assumed that I will simply plan at the first level unless specifically asked to step climb? I ask because on a practice question I was instructed to cruise at the "highest available and appropriate Flight Level" I was only a few hundred KG over for FL370 but all I had to do was cruise at FL330 for 7 minutes then climb up to 370. It made sense to me (especially since FL370 was the optimum hemispherical level) and it gave me a lot more payload. (For those playing at home the course answer did not show a step climb despite my figures for the non-step-climb scenario being correct , Page 38 of 78 in the answers section).

My gut tells me that for the purpose of the exam I'd better not be a smart-arse and to just keep it simple by planning at one level unless specifically asked to do otherwise.

FRQ CB

(Did I ask somebody this question already because it sounds familiar?)

Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo; 28th Aug 2008 at 18:18. Reason: too Mr smarty-pants
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Old 29th Aug 2008, 10:58
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone, Anyone? Bueller, Bueller, Bueller?
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 05:38
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Dont play funny buggers in the exam. If you're even one kilogram heavier than the maximum weight for a level (not Optimum weight, though!), you cant fly at it, so plan at the next lower appropriate level.
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 11:01
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Ta

Ta...

(Apparently "Ta" was too short so I have to add these words.)
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 12:23
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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great thread peeps.


doing flight planning now, 5 days of it and my head has caved in. Tempted to be driven to the bottle. Please tell me the FMS sorts all this jazz out inflight?
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 13:14
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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hi mingalababya, just read your post after a couple of weeks' break from PPRuNe.

With 1 engine inop, you can still fly on its remaining engines if properly configured (drift down), so you must hold for the wx. Depressurisation requires immediate descent to Lsalt and sucks fuel and so requires an immediate landing. Never mind the wx, the tower will clear the runway for your emergency, hence no holding.

45 minutes for a question is too slow - it should be more like 10-15 minutes max. From my memory there are 20+ questions and with a least 3 which were 5 marks and a lot of others worth 3 or 4 marks. The secret is not to calculate your answers but to do rough estimates - winds, distances, weights etc - and pick the nearest answer.

Often you can discard half the answers given cos' they are in the wrong direction in a PNR/CP etc. Another way is to do a rough estimate and work back from the answer given which is closest to your estimate, and if the numbers are not right, then move to the next closest answer, and so on. That way you can finish a question in between 1 and 5 minutes.

Tackle the 5 markers first, then the 4s and then the 3s. That way you will not be bogged down with wasting time on a 3 marker when there are more marks to be gained elsewhere.

I don't have my materials with me but I hope this helps.
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Old 31st Aug 2008, 03:14
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Whoa there pardner

Depressurisation requires immediate descent to Lsalt and sucks fuel and so requires an immediate landing. Never mind the wx, the tower will clear the runway for your emergency, hence no holding.
Wait a minute. Not a descent to LSALT, rather FL130 where supplemental O2 is no longer reqd for pax. LSALT over the sea (1500 MSL) or even one of 5000 MSL over some mountains is still going to burn far too much fuel. It's FL130 not LSALT (in fact it's really HSALT when you think of it). And it does NOT require an immediate landing, just a planned landing before you burn into your reserves. Save immediate landings life threatening situations like fire not just decreased performance because as Meatloaf said "Two out of three aint bad".

Secondly DO mind the wx. ATC will clear the traffic and the runway but not the CB pissing hale/lightning/brimstone on the threshold... and the 727 handbook says to.

FRQ CB

Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo; 31st Aug 2008 at 03:24.
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Old 2nd Sep 2008, 10:20
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone studying in Perth?

Anybody studying ATPL Flight Planning in Perth. If so I'd love to meet up and compare notes. PM me. I'm sitting it next Tuesday morning.

~FRQ CB

PS Yes, I have posted this as a new thread in order to get my message across in the forum, moderators please don't merge too quickly. Ta
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Old 3rd Sep 2008, 01:48
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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I sat Flight planning at bankstown last week first attemp got 68% self study. Am resitting it in about a week. Anyone in sydney about to sit the exam who would like to catch up for a study session preferably this weekend please PM me
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Old 3rd Sep 2008, 02:38
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ReverseFlight View Post
Tackle the 5 markers first, then the 4s and then the 3s. That way you will not be bogged down with wasting time on a 3 marker when there are more marks to be gained elsewhere.
reverseflight, thanks for your tips .. I tend to get bogged down with writing down all the working out on paper .. including the flight profile with distances and winds, track etc ... may be I should spend less time doing this?
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Old 3rd Sep 2008, 04:27
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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I tend to get bogged down with writing down all the working out on paper .. including the flight profile with distances and winds, track etc ...
Me too but I can't seem to answer the questions without all the writing. If I don't write it down I lose my place in the workings or have to recalculate too many times. (I think the only answer for me is more practice and less PPRuNe.)

FRQ CB
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Old 3rd Sep 2008, 07:33
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Get highlighters, and use different colours to keep track of different segments of the flight.

Draw diagrams - heaps of them. Use a whole A4 page per question. ASL will give you heaps of paper if you want it.

Draw up something like this -
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Old 7th Sep 2008, 14:53
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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getting there

Thanks for that, Lasio.

I just spent about 10 minutes typing out a question because I thought that I'd found a mistake in the course... in typing it out I found my error... again. (If only I had 5 cents for every time I thought I found an error and then realised I was in the wrong I'd probably not have to make money to fly any more.) Getting better at it all though. I'm wary of getting too confident, that's always my downfall.

Good luck to those of you sitting it soon.

What subject are you folks sitting next? This is my first so I'm thinking Perf and Loading (keeping it 727 while the numbers are fresh). After that what would people recommend?

FRQ CB

Oh yeah, I was talking to someone who said that they were asked about a flight from Brisbane (I think) to Bali. What the?
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Old 7th Sep 2008, 15:48
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Yep, there's two known questions in the database that relate to flights in or out of Bali.

Theres quite a few international flights - all from local airports like Port Moresby, Honiara (in my example above), Christchurch, Jakarta. I'm sure there are others, too, but at this hour of night my brain is already on its way to bed.

After Flight Planning, do Navigation. Its probably the closest (though they just give you the fuel, instead of making you work it out). There's a few questions on the ERCs, and the Point of Latest Safe Diversion is the most flightplanningesque question type.

Theres's also a lot of IREX material in Navigation.

I wouldn't be too concerned with "keeping it 727 while the numbers are fresh", as the numbers for Performance are written on the weight and balance sheet... and even if you do do Aerodynamics and Systems next, you won't be trying to memorise performance figures for the 767 - it's a totally different type of exam.
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Old 7th Sep 2008, 20:13
  #60 (permalink)  
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FRQ, I did it with Nathan and thought his structure was good.
  1. FP - Gets the most most mentally draining (IMO) out the door first
  2. Perf - Not the same as FP, but might as well get ones done that use just the 727
  3. Nav - Totally different from CPL nav, wasn't too bad, all the instrument stuff will give you a good idea of what Systems is like.
  4. Systems - 2nd only to FP when it comes to faliure rates, very broad set of subject material. The CASA question are quite different to Nathans questions, so best bet is go through the book questions and answer each question by looking for the info.
All the best, once you have done the hard yards with these you can forget study until your type rating!
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