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All those that flew for Discover (f)lying on the Penguin runs

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All those that flew for Discover (f)lying on the Penguin runs

Old 7th Mar 2014, 10:55
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Having a bit of a chuckle over this thread. This was my first alias before the Mods banned me for life under the old name 'CW'

'AE' ya gotta stop bringing that piccy of my painting out buddy, every time I see it here I go & take the original off the wall & let a tear fall

'O_C' yeah the U/C lever was a push pull affair as I recall. You pushed the centre button then put a couple of fingers under the little 'wings' of the selector & pulled it out to select the gear up. With ABM & NBM the ones I used to drive you always checked the air pressure gauge first located lower L/H corner of the sub inst panel, you can see the triple indicator dial in the photo/s here 'cause after some extensive taxing around prior to T/Off using the air press for brakes you had bugger all press left to pull the gear up. A few times am sure the guys in EN Twr must have thought he's 4gotten to pull the gear up after T/off but I was sitting there at full pwr stroking my Rosary beads hoping like hell that a donk didn't quit all the while watching the air press gauge slowly build up press to retract the gear..........the old Doves had more oil in the pneumatic system than air I think !:-)
Those days you gained balls of steel whether you liked it or not

'RW' that doesn't surprise me at all about Sandy......so many stories about him there's not enuf ink my keyboard here to tell all

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Old 11th Mar 2014, 03:49
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it was the U/C lever that contributed to Teds woes in DHD as well. a few years later i was flying with Ted out of YQNS in DHI and i enthusiasticly pulled on the lever only for them not to retract, Ted said "too fast"

Cheers, Dan
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Old 11th Mar 2014, 08:00
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Ah 'DS333" I remember that night well.
If I recall Ted didn't get the prop feathered so really didn't follow std eng fail proc's. The flaps on a Dove are like barn doors & they where left down during the entire sequence if my memory serves me correctly. The gear was a real pain at times to get pulled up.
They where lucky the old Dove stalled at 60 kts or so & with a large lumbering airframe the crash sequence would have been like in slow motion.

As a side note I seem to recall the TV series 'Flying Doctors' had DHD in one of it's shows.


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Old 11th Mar 2014, 09:11
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Wal, a quick question. Looking at that painting it appears that the donks' had been replaced with something more modern. What powered the beastie?
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Old 11th Mar 2014, 12:00
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Ah 'DS333" I remember that night well.
If I recall Ted didn't get the prop feathered so really didn't follow std eng fail proc's. The flaps on a Dove are like barn doors & they where left down during the entire sequence if my memory serves me correctly. The gear was a real pain at times to get pulled up.
They where lucky the old Dove stalled at 60 kts or so & with a large lumbering airframe the crash sequence would have been like in slow motion.
The BASIS report was most thorough and should still, in my view, be mandatory reading for all multi-engine flying instructors conducting initial twin training. The report said the take off charts were for a zero flap take off whereas the pilot used partial flap because that was what he was taught on his conversion. Also from memory, the windmilling drag from the failed engine prop was more than the drag experienced with gear extended.

The relatively successful outcome was because of the swift action by the pilot to reduce power on the live engine, thus avoiding a VMCA stall - in other words, he hit the roof of the first house with wings almost level which dissipated the energy by the time the aircraft hit the second house roof.

The report said later tests indicated an aborted in flight landing straight ahead on the remaining runway would have probably resulted in an over-run on to the Tullamarine Freeway. These flight tests done overseas at the request of BASIS revealed that a surprising amount of remaining runway is required to lose an engine shortly after lift off, have a reaction time delay of four seconds before bunting over to touch down in a flapless configuration and then apply brakes.

It was also found very difficult for a pilot to judge when actually airborne if there was sufficient runway to abort and land back on straight ahead particularly at night and pull up. Worse still if the runway surface was wet with rain resulting in loss of braking action..

The current teaching at most flying schools for engine failure still calls for a lengthy series of actions before getting around to feathering the prop. For example a typical brief is mixture up, pitch up, power up, flap up, gear up, identify dead leg dead side, confirm by slowly closing the throttle then finally feather.

That is all very fine with engine failure at a safe cruising altitude, but after lift off, unless the prop is feathered promptly as first action, then the windmilling drag will result in so much drag that speed loss is certain. Also, if the take off performance lift off speed is predicated on take off flap, to select flap up at a very low altitude before feathering will likely cause a sink rate unless adequate speed exists to allow for attitude adjustment.

It takes at least 15 seconds to get around to feathering a dead prop if the pilot goes through the whole drill dead leg - dead side etc, before actuating the feather system. That becomes a significant delay if the engine has failed soon after getting airborne. Flying schools should ensure students are aware of the vital difference in the speed at which a student must get the failed prop feathered during handling an engine failure shortly after lift off, as against a safe height where a more leisurely deliberate action is available and even an attempt at re-starting the engine.

Inevitably, there are a few seconds of "dead man's gap" immediately after lift off where the pilot has no choice except to land straight head and hope to pull up safely. That is why it is best to select gear up on attaining a positive rate of climb after lift off and thus accelerate more quickly through those few seconds, rather than deliberately leave the gear down with its attendant increased drag in case you want to land straight ahead.

Slight thread drift but the Ted Rudd Dove accident at Essendon is a fascinating study of an engine failure on take off and superb handling by the pilot to make a controlled crash with no serious casualties. Read the full report and learn a lot from it.

Last edited by Centaurus; 11th Mar 2014 at 12:22.
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Old 11th Mar 2014, 12:09
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Yeah 'Plov' there was a well known conversion for the dove & the Heron for that matter 'Reily conversions' to convert the power-plants to more modern units, Lyc's to be exact. The original Dove with the old Queens had 400 gee gee's if I recall as did the Lyc IO720 flat 8 so HP didn't change. The Heron had IO540's with around 275HP (don't quote me just a ruff guess) much like the AC50 planes.
In fact the other old Dove I used to drive VH NBM had a more modern fin on it also, prick of a thing to track straight down the Rwy 'till the airflow increased over it, never did find out what it came off but looked much like a Cessna type fin/rudder & even the main cabin door opened outward needing a ladder to get in & out of the cabin unlike the Dove in the painting (VHABM) which had an airstair door.
Lots of Mods over the years on the old Doves, they flew the best of any airframe I ever had the pleasure to drive

'Centy' just saw yr post now. I'll go find the official report for a read.
The old Dove didn't need flaps for T/Off unless the strip was very short or had other factors that looked threatening so unless any Flt manual stipulated flaps for T/off I would never consider them at all for the very reason/s you mention above.
Once full flap was selected 40 deg's I think it was for Ldg you where going to do just that land, no going around in a Dove unless you have lots of height avail. I always considered once you where below 500 ft you where going down one way or another.

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Old 11th Mar 2014, 20:56
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A few points to note with Ted's crash.
The engine failure wasn't instant therefore Ted initially thought he had partial power available.
That anti retraction poppet was woeful at best.
You had to pull the gear lever out slowly or you'd catch it every time, which is not ideal in an emergency situation of course.
With regards to zero flap.
I remember Ted talking about problems with zero flap takeoff approval from the authorities at the time. Can't for the life of me remember why though.
Something that sticks in my mind was after crashing into half the damn neighborhood, the aircraft is destroyed with the cockpit almost completely torn off. Ted still secured the aircraft IE mags off, fuel off etc. professional to the end.
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Old 11th Mar 2014, 22:16
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Ted did a fantasic job gettin everyone out alive, he did think it was a parcial power loss, its all in the report. the engine windmilled at a suprisingly high RPM the main clue was ther was no boost, i remeber ted telling me that it was like someone pulled the throttle half back and he check to see if it was still up. as for the flaps, the flight manual stated 10 degrees flap for takeoff, this changed after the crash. tuff old bird those Doves, would not have liked to see the out come if it were a PA31 or C414
Cheers, Dan
for those who did not see the DHD crash I will reluctantly put up these pics.


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Old 11th Mar 2014, 22:34
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Tnxs for the pix Dan.
If I recall there where only two flap settings for the Dove, 20 degs & 40 deg's meaning 20 deg's was the only flap setting used for T/off (if at all) I don't recall 10 deg's although maybe the Riley conversion Doves (the ones I drove) where modded. Happy to be corrected as it was a year or two ago now that I shoe horned myself into one of the most UN-ergonomically designed cockpits!

I did a bit of YouTube searching & it was indeed DHD used in a episode of the 'Flying Doctors' TV series:-) God that is a corny show now when I look back at it



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Old 11th Mar 2014, 22:50
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Hi Wally, I you are correct about the 20 degrees, my dam sausage fingers!
I have DHD's flight manual at home. i will scan the page with TO config and post here when i get a chance. I will look up youtube for the FD ep with DHD.....hang on i need another blade off the wind mill and was that Broken Hill or Hopper Crossing!
Cheers, Dan
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Old 12th Mar 2014, 03:09
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Coopers Crossing Dan, Coopers

Glad it was 20 deg's as I know I'm old & dumb but didn't quite wanna accept that just yet


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Old 12th Mar 2014, 03:40
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Drifting ever more from topic, VH-MSF is in Malaysia now, wonder if it is out searching for a certain T7.
Cheers, Dan

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Old 22nd May 2014, 08:14
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Twenty or forty Flap or both

Bad memories of taking off in NBM with asymmetric flap, 20 on the right and forty on the left.. A bitch to control and very interesting circui
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Old 22nd May 2014, 14:03
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If I recall Ted didn't get the prop feathered so really didn't follow std eng fail proc's
Depends on what you called standard engine failure procedures. In fact Ted did use the correct sequence of procedures commonly taught (rightly or wrongly) in todays flying schools as a generic drill.
Engine fails..control the yaw...mixture, pitch controls and throttle forward.....flap up....gear up....identify the failed engine ... confirm by slowly closing dead engine throttle...feather. On some types cut mixture then feather.

Ted had immediate problem with retracting the flaps and gear together due system design. At 50 feet agl he had insufficient runway left to land ahead, plus the prospect of falling over the edge on to the Tullamarine Freeway if he went off the end of 17. In the few seconds he had with all that drag and airspeed rapidly decaying at the same time, he never had the time to go through the luxury of mixture/pitch and power up, and never mind slowly closing the dead throttle, before he reduced power on the good engine to level the wings before bouncing off the roof of the first house and into the second house.

The current sequence of drills taught for many years may be fine for cruise flight but ignores the fact that a windmilling prop gives more drag than an extended landing gear in some types. Thus the common sequence of drills may be inappropriate for an engine failure shortly after lift-off where prompt feathering action is vital and even more so before the RPM of the failed engine is allowed to decay to the extent that feathering is not possible.

In the limited time between the engine failing just after lift off from runway 17 at Essendon and the time of first impact, coupled with neither the gear or flaps would retract initially, then the Dove was going nowhere but down.

Immediate feathering before all the other items may (doubtful in this particular case) have saved the day. However, that is being wise after the event; particularly in view of the commonly taught sequence of actions which gives feathering as the last item on the list of an engine failure.

Curses. Just realised my original Post 86 written two months ago is similar to this one. How time flies on Pprune! Didn't see it before penning this lot. Apologies. Old age catching up.

Last edited by Centaurus; 22nd May 2014 at 14:16.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 03:34
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No Apologies needed Centaurus,
Reading the BASI report with all the Flight testing they did in the US they totally removed pilot error as a cause. don't know if they were trying to blame Ted or just very thorough in clearing him but BASI must have spent some serious coin in that investigation.
Cheers, Dan
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Old 23rd May 2014, 03:45
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Twenty or forty Flap or both




Bad memories of taking off in NBM with asymmetric flap, 20 on the right and
forty on the left.. A bitch to control and very interesting circuit
their was a Devon in NZ in 2006 that didn't end well, though it had a failure that caused one flap to retract on approach.
RNZAF Devons | Wings Over New Zealand
proof of the fantastic job you did, especially give you were flying NBM with that stupid riley fin

Cheers, Dan

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Old 24th May 2014, 07:36
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The organisational accident

Thanks Dan. Not withstanding my own failures on the day it is a perfect case of an organisational accident. Lots of holes lining up in the cheese. Fortunately I managed to plug the last one. Sh1ts were trumps!
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Old 26th May 2014, 02:54
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Just as a matter of interest Flying-Spike what actually caused the flap problem in the Dove?
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Old 26th May 2014, 03:01
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"Maintenance Error"
Investigation: 198902316 - De Havilland DH104, VH-NBM, Essendon VIC, 17 March 1989

Cheers, Dan
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Old 27th May 2014, 08:57
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NBM

I haven't read that (but about to!) one of Notty's boys Murphy'd the hoses. He was very apologetic and was straight out to the aircraft when I landed.
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