University Student Planning Career. Which airline to Become a pilot with?

[jetflite]

Geeeeeeeezuuuuuuuus...... is this a bloody ladies magazine forum? your all a pack of bitches!

I can't stand this attitude in aviation! bag the newbie! The university aviation programs are perfectly fine for people who want a degree as well as a CPL, MECIR, ATPL's etc. I can't believe half the dribble posted in reply to this genuine question! Help the kid out and pull your heads in.

The days of flying a 206 in the bush to get into the airlines are numbered!! Deal with it, fairly soon there will be new recruits going straight to the airlines after the new MPL licence coming into play... and geeeez aren't you ladies going to be pissed off about these "kids' getting right hand seats with out spending time in the "bush" and earning double what you earned when you got your first job!

I say clap clap, Elliot mate, continue on your uni-degree, get your CPL, ATPL's and MECIR. Walk out of there with your 200 hours and a degree.
You'll piss in a job over a standard CPL providing you can back up all those qualifications with a solid professional can do attitude and decent flying skills. Any employer (apart from jackaroo's and the bush tucker man in central australia) will care about a degree and airlines highly regard it as it shows the ability to commit to a 3 year course. Airlines want commitment and are looking for professional operators to act as part of a multi crew and structured environment, your not going to be taking off overloaded on a dirt strip, on a 42C day. So be don't let people tell you that you need that experience and your less of a pilot because you don't have it. That's not saying you wouldn't develop some interesting experiences and skills in the bush, but airline flying is different.

As far as programs for airlines go, by the time you finish your degree there will be many programs that will put you into the right seat of a regional turbo prop or jet, just look at R-E-X, Mac-air and Q Link, all have programs that train low hour OPERATORS how to operate there aircraft and work effectively in a multi-crew environment. You'll have plenty of opportunities and the days of old school GA are numbered, with minimums so low, if you want to go to an airline you'll be able to take part in there bridging courses and walk straight into it. Even Q-a-n-t-a-s mainline have a min of 500 hours? thats nothing.... you can get that in your first year after your CPL

So chin up mate, don't take anyone else's **** and no doubt we'll hear your name over the PA system of an A380/747 or 73 in about 3-4 years.

[obie2]

Unfortunately Shorty, not knowing what GA is, is unforgiveable for some one professing an interest in aviation!

I suppose you know what an aeroplane is?...or are you going to surprise us there too!

[morno]

Jetflite, GA is like an apprenticeship. You go, you learn, you earn your experience, enjoy it, then you go to an airline.

And you're right. Those of us who have gone through GA and enjoyed it, done the hard yards, are pissed off that all these new grade wankers are going straight to the airlines and aren't going to respect any experience that those of us who have gone through GA, do have.

If this kid doesn't even know what GA is, then that's ignorance just there.

You're right, you don't need to know how to fly a C206 out of a dirt strip in the Top End to fly an airliner, but the real experience you're earning is life experience.

morno

[Mr. Hat]

I speak from experience - i did both. Education bells and whistles and years in the bush. At the end of the day you can get a job flying a jet without a degree and the 3 years might as well be invested in a degree that can make you some real money should the flying thing dissappear one day.

Good luck mate. Don't stop asking questions either. Its the only way to find out. I ask the blokes with 4 stripes stuff all the time at work.

Couldn't care less if a student gets straight in from uni - good on em. The only bit I worry about is when I'm in the left seat on a dark stormy night and young mate hasn't had the opportunity to scare the piss out of him/herself on several occasions.

[bushy]

GA???

The words "general aviation" really mean any kind of flying,in any sort of flying machine.
But the aeroplane sales people thought that the term "light aircraft" would not help them sell aeroplanes, so they encouraged people to use the term "general aviation" instead to describe the non airline aircraft.
Today the term GA is commonly used to describe the non airline aviation industry that has been almost destrroyed by floods of airline wannabies and manipulators who thought they would only be doing it for a short time and many of whom were prepared to work for peanuts and cut corners to try to get ahead of their "mates" There were many good pilots but most of them got demoralised and left.
Airlines are now finding that they should have had a long term plan for recruiting, so they don't get caught with a shortage of pilots. Things are now changing, and GA may recover.
That is what "GA" is. And 80% of the country depends on it.

[Keg]

The days of flying a 206 in the bush to get into the airlines are numbered!!

I disagree. Within a decade or so this pilot shortage will be done with and this will still be a valid- and more importantly for those of us who have been around a few years- and valued means of getting the required experience.

... and geeeez aren't you ladies going to be pissed off about these "kids' getting right hand seats with out spending time in the "bush"...

Given that I'm an ex cadet then no I won't be....but don't let your self righteousness stop you from your own delusions. What I'll be pissed off with will be a uni trained CPL/MPL holder who doesn't know enough about the industry to be able to contribute appropriately.

Elliot mate...You'll piss in a job over a standard CPL providing you can back up all those qualifications with a solid professional can do attitude and decent flying skills.

The evidence thus far is that the 'professional and can do attitude' is sadly lacking from shortyy. If shortyy isn't just on a fishing expedition then they have been sadly neglectful in either their uni studies, choice of course or just general research on the possible career pathways in their chosen career. Any newbie in an aviation degree that doesn't understand what GA is should be questioning whether they have what it takes to actually get into an airline. I can imagine the response they'll get from any airline- regional or otherwise- in the application process if they display the lack of forethought that shortyy has displayed. Whilst I acknowledge that at least shortyy was smart enough to ask the question- although my instincts given shortyy's lack of engagement on the thread is that they are trolling- the reality is that anyone who is 1-2 years into an aviation degree and doesn't yet know what GA is probably hasn't been that serious about aviation to this point.

Airlines want commitment and are looking for professional operators to act as part of a multi crew and structured environment,....

Exactly. Attitudes such as shortyy has exhibited so far are not compatible with that environment.

...your (sic) not going to be taking off overloaded on a dirt strip, on a 42C day. So be don't let people tell you that you need that experience and your less of a pilot because you don't have it.

Nor should you diminish the importance of some of those experiences and the importance that they play in an airline environment. Being faced with those kinds of situations and decisions and understanding your decision making processes and the background is an important skill.

Help the kid out and pull your heads in.

The 'kid' hasn't enough background knowledge and experience to provide anything other than 'have a good hard think about why you're doing this'. He or she has had far more assistance on this thread than the attitude deserves.

I can't stand this attitude in aviation! bag the newbie!

I left this until last because this is biggest crock of the lot. I've got to be honest and say that I've never come across this in aviation. I've found both as a newbie and now as someone who newbies tend to seek after information- should see my PM inbox for those seeking advice on QF- that newbies with an inquiring mind and the right attitude are served very well. What gets short shrift are those who profess to want a 'career' in aviation, who appear to be working towards that but in reality the attitude and level of interest don't include the possibility of anything other than a jet job in a few years. One of my bits of advice to newbies considering a career in aviation is that they had better be happy if that 'career' means flying the bank run from Wagga-Mildura and return four days a week because if they're not then they may be a significant amount of money out of pocket and very disappointed where the 'career' takes them.

[FullySickBro]

Ah yes the uni debate...

Could it be that a persons attitude and work ethic are an intrisic part of their nature that is neither learnt from an aeroclub or university??

Aileron 69 et al, it must shock you when you do actually come across degree qualified pilots who have flown clapped out Cessnas, on hot days and from short strips- they do exist...

Please don't let Shortyys apparent short sightedness stir up this old chestnut again, I thought we had moved on...

[j3pipercub]

Keg,

You don't think that your first captain thought you were the same guy who didn't know enough to contribute either when you were that fresh faced cadet?

As for the uni debate, go do a search, it's hilarious. Could say what I think, and I do know, but it would seem that there are far too many posters on this forum that don't even have the semblance of the truth, only opening their mouths to change feet. Keep posting know it alls, its comical

Elliot,

All the best, as far as aiming for an airline, do some research and come up with a decision. Don't ask on here, the site is full of tyre kickers and guys talking sh*t way over their heads. However, don't forget that although the train drivers uniform and the scrambled eggs on the hat does come with some prestige, you will learn a great deal about aviation and yourself by taking the GA path. Sure it's harder, but in my humble opinion, worth it

j3

[ALLICEDUP]

Well said!!!!

j3pipercub

Well said, couldn't agree with you more. I just couldn't be bother typing it!

Keg, have a think about where you came from mate.

[Keg]

You don't think that your first captain thought you were the same guy who didn't know enough to contribute either when you were that fresh faced cadet?

Please, if you're going to quote me then at least do me the courtesy of doing it in context. My comments were about attitude and overall understanding of the wider industry/things going on. It's no good being an ace on the stick and rudder if you can't do the rest of it and that requires the right attitude. I'm not against cadetships, uni courses (how could I when I've ticked both boxes) and nor am I against GA. What I am against is a pilot (any pilot irrespective of background) not approaching the job with the right attitude.

Further, I may be an ex-cadet but you have no idea what my background is or how I approached the job. Captain Paul Holland- being the gentleman he is- provided me with a great introduction into airline flying. Captains that I flew with after that like Max Horton, Ernie Bolton, Dave Bracewell, Tony Walker, Les Taylor, et al, welcomed me as a contributing member of the crew because I at least had the right attitude.

The amazing thing is that at times I've had better 'support' from low time ex cadets just out of flight school who have the right attitude than I have from high time ex GA/MIL/cadet pilots (long time S/Os) with the wrong attitude. I know which I prefer.

[Keg]

Keg, have a think about where you came from mate.

So let me understand this correctly. Someone who is supposedly in second year of uni doing an aviation degree and wanting to move into an aviation cadetship/career doesn't know what GA is and displays a pretty poor atitude; I call them on it and suddenly I'm not sympathetic and have forgotten my roots? Because I'm an ex cadet I'm not allowed to challenge anyone following in my footsteps doing a cadetship/uni degree who is displaying a poor attitude? Seriously?

I reckon it sums up the attitude that many have in society at the moment. We're not supposed to 'call' people on things like attitudes and values because 'we're all equal' and my attitude shouldn't be deemed to be more acceptable. The problem with shortyy and many of their ilk- GA, military, ex cadet, uni, etc- is that they've never been called on anything. It didn't happen in school, it didn't happen at home and it doesn't happen at uni. It's going to be a rude shock when they start working with people in the real world and people actually start demanding the right attitude from them. It's going to be an even bigger shock for them when they realise that their poor attitude can actually kill them. I hope they get the message- just as someone gave it to me- before they're staring into the abyss.

[Old Fella]

Never called on anything

Come on Keg, you are talking out that orifice that points at the ground if you think military pilots are "not called on anything". The military doesn't put up with anything that doesn't fit their requirements, just ask the multitude of aspiring military pilots who have been "scrubbed" during training.

[ampan]

It was a lot more simple in the old days: At least four years in the RAAF.

[Keg]

Come on Keg, you are talking out that orifice that points at the ground if you think military pilots are "not called on anything". The military doesn't put up with anything that doesn't fit their requirements, just ask the multitude of aspiring military pilots who have been "scrubbed" during training.

You're absolutely right. Forgive me for being a bit ham fisted and not explaining further. What I was getting at is that a number of people with poor attitudes aren't used to being called on it- right up until the time someone puts them in their place. Certainly the few ex-RAAFies that I've had that particular discussion with have been surprised that not everyone supports their view of the world. Perhaps they were called on attitude in the past but it still comes as a surprise when it happens down the track. Heck, no one is immune from being 'corrected' about their attitude- I've had a few over the years too.

[Elbo]

A few points:

1. GA
   • I did not make the connection between GA and General Aviation. My Mistake.
   • I did however already know what General Aviation is.
2. KEG:
   • I appreciate you might think you're helping but perhaps you read the thread as an invitation to come and criticise me? E.g.
     
     "The evidence thus far is that the 'professional and can do attitude' is sadly lacking from shortyy."
     
     You know next to nothing about me! I moved out of home to a foreign state to go to University to pursue my dream job, and you think that I lack attitude?? How can you know anything about my attitude toward any aspect of flying??
   • Also I never said anything that even hinted that i assumed it would be easy or that I know anough to get a job in the aviation industry right at this point in time, but thats why im still a STUDENT. I am in the process of learning about things so I will be able to prove myself.
3. I would have no objections to going the GA route, in fact I'm sure it would be an awesome experience, however to go the GA route you have to have money to get your licence. I have chosen to go through university because i can defer most of the costs. If I don't get the QANTAS cadetship then it is highly likely that I will go GA, but until I get my licences there are not a lot of things I can do about it, though I am doing some gliding at the moment, which is good fun and adds to experience. (QANTAS dont want us to have much experience in powered aircraft for the cadetship as they'll be training us themselves if we get in)
4. JetFlite - Thanks, I'm not planning on taking anything unnecessary from anyone and I've looked into the REX cadetship but, if I can get in, Qantas is a better alternative for me at the moment, though I've heard roumers of Virgin offering a cadetship similar to that of QANTAS..Does anyone know anything about it?
5. Morno - I get what you're saying about experience, and I have no objections to going the GA route. I will do whatever it takes to get me into the industry, but as if you would have passed down an opportunity to come out of a 3 year degree with a CPL, ATPL theory and a piece of paper saying you can commit to something for 3 years, and not have to pay anything til later.
6. That brings me to the last point that I am not in a financial position to be able to go off and pay for flying lessons. I have chosen the UNI route because I can't afford to pay for it myself yet.

Thanks for all those who are being constructive and not unneccessarily critical!

Any advice on particular airlines would be appreciated

Elliot

[j3pipercub]

Keg

I had this really long, drawn out, vitriolic response to you, but I realised, it wasn't worth it. You're QF, you think that you are the pinnacle of aviation. Not just the pinnacle, you have taken it upon yourself to be the Qantas ORACLE of PPRUNE. And really, you're right, EVERYTHING you said here is right, whatever helps you sleep at night. I hope I can be just like you one day, but I can't afford the labotomy for another couple fo years.

Good Luck Elliot. Piece of advice though. Never use your real name again on Prune. Would also recommend cancelling your shortyy account and activating another one.

j3

[neville_nobody]

if that 'career' means flying the bank run from Wagga-Mildura and return four days a week because if they're not then they may be a significant amount of money out of pocket and very disappointed where the 'career' takes them.

Yes 'cause that's what you did eh Keg! Why not leave the GA talk to the guys who have been there and done it.

[Keg]

J3, what a very typical Gen Y response. First instinct when you hear something you don't like is to tell the person to get stuffed. Whilst you may have toned down your response I note that you still decide to play the man instead of discussing the issue on it's merits. I shouldn't be surprised.

Shortyy, your last post is your best so far. Had you opened with that instead of your original post and asked the question at the beginning of the thread in a different manner then the response from many regular contributors may have been quite different. As I previously indicated, whilst you should continue aiming for the stars, be prepared for the possibility that you're aviation 'career' may not involve any of the airlines. Your 'choices' may be quite limited. If you do get a choice then my earlier comment about pay and lifestyle still hold true. In that respect there are ample other threads on PPRUNE that provide the pros and cons of the three majors in Australia.

neville, no that's not what I did but when I commenced my flying training 18 months prior to getting the QF cadetship and for the two years, three months and eighteen days between graduating the cadetship and commencing with Qantas- with no industry placement at that time- that is what I knew was one of the possible outcomes with an aviation 'career'. It's also one of the things that I tell younglings in the AAFC considering an aviation career. If they're not happy flying 'anything' for life then they're going to find it difficult to enjoy being an in airline- too much 'boredom', time away from the 'fun' things in life including mates, family and so on to sustain you unless you have a love of the flying.

[j3pipercub]

Keg, that's riiiight, you shouldn't be surprised, you typical skygod. Stop drinking, it's making you delusional

Your typical Gen Yer

j3

[aileron_69]

Stop drinking, it's making you delusional

J3pipercub, wash your mouth out!!!! As pilots it is our creed to drink aaaaaaaaaaaalll the Alcohol!!! To stop would simply be nothing short of sacrilage!! No pilot should ever stop drinking, its been the real Aviation fuel since Richard Pearse first got in the Air back in March 1903!!!