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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 03:28
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And so what is the timetable for the vote?

I guess this info is being distributed at work,but for those not at work,what sort of time frame can we expect to see things happen?

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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 04:40
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Question?

To alaea,

firstly, great job! you have made me believe again. pat yourself on the back.

Secondly, for some of the boys at work;

Q: If you became a LAME after 1/1/08 and are level 3 do you get a grade? I can interpret the deal a few different ways.

some of the boys got their licence in may/june so how do they fair?

thanks
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 04:44
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I'm with you..

AVENG, I'm with you. This EBA is going straight to the pool room...
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 04:48
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All is quiet on the western front with the ALAEA PIA.
Have they accepted the 3% pay rise and are now off to convince their followers to accept it?

In case I forgot to answer post number 1 of this thread, the simple answer is no.
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 05:06
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FedSec.. Is the final document still being draughted? How long do you reckon before we see it?
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 05:16
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Bravo SP and all involved with this terrific result

In the immortal lyrics of Woody Guthrie...

"Union song
union battle
all added up
won us all what we've got now"

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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 10:11
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Absolutely Brilliant

A big heart felt thanks to all on the ALAEA team for their fantastic patience and efforts in forcing QF to the table

D4
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 10:34
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Great outcome and congrats to the brilliant team in Bexley.

This will go down as a great win in the war but I feel there is along way to go if we wish to get our company back. Now that we have all learnt how to use the Policies and Procedures to the letter we should all keep doing so and if you have any doubt as to their effectiveness document the pitfalls. With proper feedback if we end up with any decent people in management after the cull they may be able to instigate some useful changes back to something that resembles common sense.

If your going to dream, dream big.
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 11:15
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whinger !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 12:49
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Angry

no negitive feedback. you are joking. not even 4 %. crap deal. no better then last lot. libs may have been better.
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 13:16
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Devil The Devil"s Advocate


Congratulations to the EXEC for their battle with the dark side. It has been a long and hard process for all with the internal and external pressures coming to bear on them.
I am greatly pleased that the LAME entry levels low wage has been addressed. It has been a long time coming, where an unlicenced engineer, with little responsibility is on basically the same money.
There hasn’t been much incentive to become licensed.
The one thing that has not been addressed is the inequity of a quota system, which has been, and will remain our greatest thorn in our side.
Why are we unable to access the points which we have earned over the years?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

BEST CASE GRADE 3 SCENARIO

16th Aug 2006 Grade 3 +3 Service Points

1st Jan 2007 Entry Level Increase Grade 4 +3 Service Points

1st Jan 2007 3% Grade 4 +3 Service Points

16th Aug 2007 1 Service Point Grade 5 +0 Service Points

1st Jan 2008 1.5%+4.15% Grade 6 +0 Service Points

16th Aug 2008 1 Service Point Grade 6 +1 Service Point

1st Jan 2009 3% Grade 6 +1 Service Point

16th Aug 2009 1 Service Point Grade 6 +2 Service Points

1st Jan 2010 3% Grade 6 +3 Service Points


14.65% PLUS 2 GRADES PLUS 1%SUPER INCREASE


TOTAL 3.66%/YEAR +1 GRADE +1% SUPER INCREASE


The other grade you would have got anyway

____________________________________________________________ ___________________





WORST CASE GRADE 11 SCENARIO

16th Aug 2006 Grade 11 + 3 Training Points + 3 Service Points
Unable to Progress to Grade 12 Due Service/Training Points Restrictions
1st Jan 2007 3% Grade 11 + 3 Training Points + 3 Service Points
Unable to Progress to Grade 12 Due Service/Training Points Restrictions

1st Jan 2008 1.5% + around 4.5% for a Grade
Does the Grade come after the 1.5% or before it?
It makes a difference to the figures.
In other words is it 1.5% of Grade 11 or 1.5% of Grade 12

Assuming Grade 12 is a 4.5% increase

1st Jan 2008 1.5%+4.5% Grade 12 + 3 Training Points + 4 Service Points
Still unable to progress to Grade 13 Due Service/Training Points Restrictions
1st Jan 2009 3% Grade 12 + 3 Training Points + 5 Service Points
Still unable to progress to Grade 13 Due Service/Training Points Restrictions
1st Jan 2010 3% Grade 12 + 3 Training Points + 5 Service Points
Still unable to progress to Grade 13 Due Service/Training Points Restrictions

15%

TOTAL 3.75% AVERAGE OVER 4 YEARS




Steve says a level is 4.3% for level 13, up to 7.5% for a level 3.

No Service Points will progress you beyond Grade 12

Accrued points get carried over, but also get you nowhere.

Allowing us to use points which we have earned but not been able to use because of quotas is ridiculous

Our Exec have done a great job with what they were faced with, but I’m among the 40% who will vote against this. There you have it.

Sorry about that chief but

I don’t think it’s good enough.”
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 13:34
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The numbers add up for this "high cost LAME", thanks Murray the next chapter is going to be interesting to read. There is going to have to be a fall guy for all this (vote not withstanding), for the ill advised, uneducated and reactionary way in which management has handled this.

To my brothers, the people who held the line, I convey my pride and respect. I was pleasently surprised. To those who bent over to continue thier servicing, you can not shrink so small as to avoid the scorn and disdain of the righteous. Those naysayers who chose to preach the MACS poison from the outset must surely now feel like geese, although they will surely accept the remuniration with open arms. you will never be taken seriously again.

Maintain the rage.
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 13:58
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There hasn’t been much incentive to become licensed.
Take Five, that may be the case for a very small number. It's quite a stupid statement actually.

The opportunity to get a type course has virtually disappeared in many areas. It's not so much a case of no incentive, rather no opportunity.

The incentive to become licenced is career progression. A level 13 AME with a PE will drop $ when obtaining their first licence however, they have simply climbed off the top rung of the AME ladder and onto the bottom rung of the LAME ladder.
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 14:21
  #3994 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs Up!

I personally will do a lot better than the previous offer. Good on yer Steve and the boys!

It is impossible to keep everyone happy.
This is the first time since this stupid EBA/Grading system was voted in that I will have actually gone forward. I have voted No for every deal since EBA1.

I will vote YES for this deal. It depends on your situation.

The other consideration is the other Staff who have backed our fight. I know a lot of ground hosties that have been coping s**t constantly. We all need to thanks them regardless of how you feel about the deal. Those girls and guys have been troopers through this.

It has been an ordeal for them. Drop them in a Mudcake for morning smoko or simply say "Thanks". They will appreciate it. Don't forget they ARE getting shafted by management!

Everyone should look at the big picture. We have been trodden on for years and now we have shown unity instead of splitting and choking as we have in the past. Managment will take us seriously and we just might get the next EBA sorted before it is half over.

Funny, it was not long ago it was the Conehead v Greasers and hangers Morts v Terminal Coits! Ha! Now we are as one. It's great! QF have in one motion buggered engineering and fixed it in one motion. Ironic isn't it.

Think carefully boys and girls. Your vote counts.

Devcon4
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 14:25
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How Far Can You Go

I think it is fair to say that everybody wants fair remuneration for what they are qualified for and for what they do. But there should be a line that says that’s it your capped out. How high an earning do LAME’s think is appropriate. Some appear to be heading to the CEO mindset of how much remuneration they should have. Rember our complants of GD’s package for looking after a company of 36,000 staff which is so astronomical to those running the country! Would some like level 20?
In the old days, yeah I’m an oldie, you were happy to still be trained and kept up with the latest and greatest. If you lost a tail through retiring types the company was abliged to retrain you. This ideal allowed you to keep current and also importantly your pay, instead of losing it through attrition of CPI increases. Today I feel some of us at those lofty heights are complaining shelfishly. I know members complain that they didn’t vote in the grading system but still we ALL benefit from service points that gives us a level we would never have achieved under the old system. I myself would like to see new blood brought into the ALAEA membership and instead of levels going up higher than they are, the company persuaded to spend that money on training new LAMEs and AMEs , and that we the older ones have someone to transfer our skills and knowledge to, to keep the aviation maintenance career sustainable in Australia.
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 14:27
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Foremost, thank you Exec for your tireless efforts. A big thank you to the membership for the show of solidarity.

Now my big concern - Our management will now go full steam ahead with all their ludicrous initiatives and drive parts of our 'usual' business to the ground.

One way or another, they will fashion out savings to pay for our reasonable, fair and just pay claim and drive us to the wall.

Think rosters, redundancies, customer payments, overtime etc etc etc.

Same management, hell bent on destruction.

Again, will patiently wait by the riverbank.
Clipped, whichever way this EBA went, the fuse has been set, and the eventual shutdown of maintenance within QF is inevitable. The ball was set rolling in 2005 with the shutdown of HM in SYD, and went to the "overflow" centre in AVV. Now that QF has set up a joint MRO in Malaysia, which is supposedly for "overflow" work, we will see the eventual demise of AVV. One only has to look at the various places QF is now getting its work done where they have set up maintenance facilities.

The failure of the APA bid last year hastened the actions we have seen from late last year till now. As SP stated in his letter, QF had a massive "fighting fund" to break us one way or another. The revenue lost and damage to our reputation was a consequence QF management was prepared to wear. The financial loss incurred over the last few months was far greater than the 5% we were asking for, and possibly the wage cost (approx $360 million) across the company that GD was complaining about.

There was an article in Saturday's Sydney Morning Herald where GD stated that in 10 years time, QANTAS will still be around, but there won't be so many aircraft flying the QANTAS colours. The rest will be flying the colours of Jeffstar.

Sad but true, but at least we showed our resolve to the company that we aren't the easy pushovers they took us for.
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 15:05
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CarltonJudd (stupid fkg name anyway) and Take five - Take a good hard look in the mirror at yourselves both your posts appear selfish and arrogant
I see a minimum of 4% for ALL per year, I'm not happy as it's not 5% but I'm not among the individuals spending countless and it appears (from your posts) thankless hours of their OWN time bettering our young men and women.
Gotta love someone who takes potshots in an anonymous forum but is too p!ssweak to stand for office.
To both of you I ask did you vote this system in ?, reap the rewards and now complain because you have reached the point that has been fkg some people (almost half our membership) over for five to ten years !

In the end whether you vote for it or against it there will always be consequences
Clipped you have often shot from the hip, good to see you are willing to give credit where credit is due
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 20:19
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Jets on,
I know members complain that they didn’t vote in the grading system
but still we ALL benefit from service points that gives us a level we
would never have achieved under the old system.

How did you figure that Jetson, i'm pretty sure the service point
never got me into another grade. Service point = nil benefit for me.
I didn't vote the grading system in, if i recall it was the mighty numbers
of phase check greasers at the 1500hs shift change that got it over the line.
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 20:24
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QF94:

Clipped, whichever way this EBA went, the fuse has been set, and the eventual shutdown of maintenance within QF is inevitable. The ball was set rolling in 2005 with the shutdown of HM in SYD, and went to the "overflow" centre in AVV. Now that QF has set up a joint MRO in Malaysia, which is supposedly for "overflow" work, we will see the eventual demise of AVV. One only has to look at the various places QF is now getting its work done where they have set up maintenance facilities.

The failure of the APA bid last year hastened the actions we have seen from late last year till now. As SP stated in his letter, QF had a massive "fighting fund" to break us one way or another. The revenue lost and damage to our reputation was a consequence QF management was prepared to wear. The financial loss incurred over the last few months was far greater than the 5% we were asking for, and possibly the wage cost (approx $360 million) across the company that GD was complaining about.

There was an article in Saturday's Sydney Morning Herald where GD stated that in 10 years time, QANTAS will still be around, but there won't be so many aircraft flying the QANTAS colours. The rest will be flying the colours of Jeffstar.

Sad but true, but at least we showed our resolve to the company that we aren't the easy pushovers they took us for.
The eventual shutdown of maintenance at QF is NOT inevitable. Just ask anyone who has EVER had a joint venture in Asia how it has panned out.

Your ENTIRE argument rests on the assumption that Asia is always going to be a financially advantageous location to do stuff, which, I assure you, is not a safe assumption.

By moving operations overseas, you are exposing yourself to three additional sources of risk for your business. The first is sovereign risk - which is about the attitude of the Government in the designated country towards your country and their attitude to one of their companies doing work for you.

The second is the business risk associated with relying on an overseas facility. This is about what happens to you if they go belly up. This can be ameliorated if there are numerous suppliers to choose from, so that any failure can be quickly fixed by substitution.

The Third is commercial risk - which is about competition and your ability to choose another supplier if you believe you are being gouged.

These risks must be managed if you are to succeed in outsourcing, and there are an infinite number of ways you can screw it up.

Furthermore, QF has just shown via the ALEA EBA process that it is unable to manage risk - specifically the risk associated with your decision to ban O/T.

So here's one for you QF 94, what happens to QF when all those little guys in your Malaysian MRO decide to have their little EBA session? You all ready know the answer - QF is F***ed.

Don't believe the bull**** about Australia being expensive either. As Asian living standards rise, their cost advantage disappears.

And don't discount the fact that one advantage of overseas outsourcing is all those lovely business trips for senior management - and no, I'm not joking. One senior QF manager, with a wife and two kids in Sydney, regularly "stays overnight" with a female acquaintance of mine as he does his "rounds" of various bases each month.
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Old 22nd Jul 2008, 20:55
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Sunfish, you have proven that you are a right Wankrrr.

Anybody who has read your posts and was not sure has had this confirmed.

Sounds like you are a bit grumpy that your not getting any crumpet from your lady friend.
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