The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

R/T phraseology .... AGAIN!

Old 6th Apr 2008, 12:59
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oz
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Serious question, What is so bad about giving an estimated time for overhead or circuit area at a CTAF airfield in your inbound/overflying call?
BUSH PILOT is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2008, 12:59
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Down there
Posts: 313
Received 8 Likes on 3 Posts
Its called Professionalism

Russell says:

Re the "pending clearance" whinge, I can see why a pilot would use this phrase. When departing from an uncontrolled airport and climbing to, say FL220, use of this phrase stops ATC from replying with "remain outside controlled airspace etc." or similar, meaning don't climb above FL180 until you've got your clearance, which actually clutters up the radio more than simply saying "I'm climbing to FL220 pending clearance" does.
Opinions are like a*seholes, everyone has one. It does not matter whether you consider it justified, the fact is (not opinion) that it is incorrect terminology to use the term, 'Pending Clearance'.

Soulman asks:

Re the "climbing FLXXX pending clearance" - what is the correct phraseology Krusty?
I hope Krusty does not mind me answering for him, but the correct terminology is simply, "Climbing to FL???" In other words, your flight planned level, regardless of what class of airspace that level maybe. ATC will either deny you clearance, provide you clearance to that level or provide you with an intermediate level until your flight planned level becomes available.

Another bad habit that creeps in, or more that it is not properly taught at the instructing phase is continually calling the ATC station by their station name or just 'Centre' for every subsequent request. Eg - 'BN Centre, ABC maintaining FL???' A few minutes later, 'BN Centre (or Centre), ABC request .....', then shortly thereafter, BN Centre (or Centre) ABC request ...' and each subsequent request is still prefixed with 'BN Centre' or Centre.

Reference to the ATC station should be called only the one time on initial contact. After that it should just be 'ABC request ...' and so on for each subsequent request or other matter, until instructed to contact the following frequency.

JT

Last edited by Jenna Talia; 6th Apr 2008 at 13:12.
Jenna Talia is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2008, 13:11
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Boggabilla
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My favourites at the moment

"Centre, ABC airborne at YXXX standby for departure"
No worries tool - i'm sure centre's just pissing in anticipation.

Love the callsign at the beginning and end of each tx

On CTAF "QFxxxx an IFR 737 bla bla bla" - not to be confused with one of those VFR 737s out there

Sorry, just being cynical now

HF is fun at times also.Must people prefix every single fecking call with FLIGHTWATCH! FLIGHTWATCH! 6565?

Last edited by SmokingHole; 6th Apr 2008 at 13:27.
SmokingHole is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2008, 13:29
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: adelaide, Australia
Posts: 469
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Bush pilot...nothing. In fact best to keep doing it. That practice hails back to the days when everyone flew full reporting with the requirement to give an estimate for each reporting point/destination + or- 2 minutes and before GPS was invented. These days most have GPS therefore arrival time can be given exactley. Problem is most of the drivers tooling around today know no different so estimates are a bit confusing for them.
Ofcourse I could throw in a mention of the old AFIZ and really confound them
So long as other drivers in the circuit know when and what direction you are arriving from that's fine.
mostlytossas is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2008, 13:54
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks Jenna - I've heard a few different takes on that one. "climbing FLXXX pending clearance" or "climbing OCTA requesting FLXXX" or just "climbing OCTA" and was keen to hear what the correct call was.


Ironically, it appears to be stemming from the top though.
Soulman is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2008, 23:08
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Cairns
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
On CTAF "QFxxxx an IFR 737 bla bla bla" - not to be confused with one of those VFR 737s out there
From the Jepps

- For departure at a non-controlled aerodrome.

*"(aircraft type)[POB] [IFR(if operating IFR)]TAXIING (location) FOR (destination or intentions) RUNWAY (number)."


"Centre, ABC airborne at YXXX standby for departure"
No worries tool - i'm sure centre's just pissing in anticipation
Agree, not quite right but.....

-To intiate a SARWATCH when communications on the ground is not available.

*"AIRBORNE (location)"

Something about glass houses comes to mind.
Black Maria is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2008, 23:46
  #47 (permalink)  

I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Here and there
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And it all matters nought if the pilot isn't even on the correct CTAF. THREE MONTHS after the effective changeover date!
RPT, Jet Charter, GA.... all as guilty as each other on that one.
Islander Jock is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2008, 23:49
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hiding..... in one hemisphere or another
Posts: 1,067
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Something about glass houses comes to mind.
Something about tin foil hats does too!
Atlas Shrugged is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 00:22
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cool

Unfortunately folks I can attest that after almost 30 years in aviation I have witnessed the gradual but continual demise of good R/T phraseology. Once upon a time people used to think that it was a sign of our professionalism to use a frequency with the correct and concise phrases as described in AIP.

The impact of this loss is a greater propensity to misunderstand or misinterpret calls made by ATC or other aircraft thereby reducing safety. Further, the busier it gets on the frequency the more important it becomes to ensure you only give the required readback otherwise frequency congestion can quickly occur with some dire consequences.

The solution lies with Instructors at flying schools knowing the correct phraseologies and teaching them and Check Officers enforcing professional R/T. Listen to the R/T at any GAAP aerodrome and you will find that a lot of Instructors (including CFI's) do not use the correct phraseology in the circuit and so the student learn's these bad habits. Hence the demise in R/T standards.

May I suggest useful analogy? Imagine that a readback is like a receipt to a financial transaction. ATC issues an instruction as per AIP and you respond with the correct readback as a receipt to the verbal transaction. Your correct readback confirms to the ATC that you have heard and understood the instruction and will comply. Also when ATC issues an instruction to another aircraft wait until that aircraft responds before jumping in with your call.

It isn't that hard is it?
Duck N Weave is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 00:59
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,302
Received 9 Likes on 4 Posts
Gidday Jenna.

Do not mind at all. And correct on all counts.

Soulman, would've answered sooner, but have been away.

Krusty.
KRUSTY 34 is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 01:12
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wherever the hotel drink ticket is valid
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Can I mention the number of superfluous instructions ATC issue?

I intend to consult mister Jepps on the "correctness" of these phrases, but regardless, I think we can agree the additional words carry no real meaning. Examples:

"Line up and wait RW 16R"

Was I going to do anything else after lining up?

ABC - "Tower, ABC ready"

Tower "ABC - Hold at the holding point"

Again, what else am I going to do?

Climb and maintain 5000'

But my current irk is people requesting airways clearance, taxi clearance etc. But I suppose "that's the way I've always done it!"

I know there's plenty out there who couldn't care less, but I like to think that a professional is someone who knows that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. That's why I'll be sticking my head in the books to make sure I get these right. Lead, follow, or get out of my way.
Icarus53 is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 01:42
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Horn Island
Posts: 1,044
Received 33 Likes on 8 Posts
Icarus,

you need a copy of Manual Airtraffic Services to fing their info. Jeps and AIP are extremely short of info in that area.
RENURPP is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 01:48
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes on 1 Post
Unfortunately, the AIP is no longer easy to interperate. Trevor Tomms used to write a book listing all radio phraseology in a manner that left nothing to question. Such a book is now sadly needed. If there is such a book currently available, could someone please post its' details. Neither the AIP or Jepps fit this description.
Kelly Slater is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 02:20
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Melbourne
Age: 40
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Actually, all phraseology has recently been removed from MATS. Theoretically controllers and pilots should both be working from the same document when it comes to phraseology: AIP.
ollie_a is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 03:29
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Horn Island
Posts: 1,044
Received 33 Likes on 8 Posts
Ollie a
Thankyou, wasn't aware of that.
RENURPP is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 04:03
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UAE
Age: 48
Posts: 447
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Smoking Hole:

"Centre, ABC airborne at YXXX standby for departure"
No worries tool - i'm sure centre's just pissing in anticipation.
Actually, as a controller, this makes sense. Hopefully most of you know that ATC start to initiate SAR if you fail to call a departure ten minutes after you give a taxi call. So, in effect the pilot is saying that "I know it's close to the time you'll start bugging me, I'm still here & alive, just airborne, I'll give you a call in a tick". At least that's what I have seen it used for.

Icarus53:

"Line up and wait RW 16R"
"ABC - Hold at the holding point"
Climb and maintain 5000'
These are all examples of what we are now required to say. I believe the changes were to ensure people knew that yes, you are getting an instruction which usually gets a following one pretty quickly, but this may not be the case this time. Climb to an maintain means you can expect to level off at 5000, whereas climb to 5000 usually means that it's a level peg for my separation proving purposes, but I don't expect you to level off. I'm not saying I'm a fan, but it more of the old arse covering again.....

Cheers,

NFR.
No Further Requirements is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 06:13
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 3,087
Received 14 Likes on 11 Posts
Actually, as a controller, this makes sense. Hopefully most of you know that ATC start to initiate SAR if you fail to call a departure ten minutes after you give a taxi call. So, in effect the pilot is saying that "I know it's close to the time you'll start bugging me, I'm still here & alive, just airborne, I'll give you a call in a tick". At least that's what I have seen it used for.
Agreed. I only really hear this when centre start calling for a departure report. The aircraft concerned has often been delayed by traffic and is heading down the runway. Letting them know you're alive and well and will call them as soon as you have your **** together seems like a good idea to me.

I once heard a QF B737 calling a five mile final at YPKA. "QFxxxx, 5 mile final runway 08 full-stop landing." I had to bite my tongue and didn't say, "so not doing a touch and go today then Qantas?"

"Pending clearance" doesn't achieve anything. If centre wants you to remain outside controlled airspace they still have to say it, and you still have to read it back. Just call climbing to same way you tell them you're tracking to a point within controlled airspace. You don't say "Tracking to YSSY pending clearance" do you?
AerocatS2A is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 06:33
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
"Standby for departure"
What else are you going to do?? Another example of words that are NOT required!


"Centre, ABC Airborne location" is all that is required in G if you want to make contact and start your SAR.
cogwheel is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 06:50
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: moon
Posts: 3,564
Received 89 Likes on 32 Posts
Can anyone enlighten this poor VHF pilot why at YMMB has "Gedday Moorabbin Tower Warrior XYZ ready 17 left for the circuit",

been replaced with "Cessna 172 ABC ready 17 left for the circuit dual with November?"
Sunfish is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2008, 07:31
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Noticed the DUAL call ay YBAF recently..........is that so the tower KNOW its not solo circuits?

J
Jabawocky is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.