Instructors with attitude problems
"....you may remember the instructor who crashed a Baron ( I think) near Canberra enroute to the snow from Bankstown some 15yrs ago due to not allowing for the COG movement with the fuel burn off."
I apologise for the thread drift, but.....
While I recall this accident, I can't recall the outcome of the crash investigation. If someone can point me to the ASTB report, I would like to read it.
I haven't flown a Baron for a few years but I suspect CofG issues with a Baron are likely to be similar to the Bonanza. If that is the case then it is unlikely this accident was caused solely by a failure to allow for fuel burn in the CofG calculations. It is most likely that the aeroplane was overloaded to start with.
While it is true that in the Bonanza, fuel burn off results in a rearward movement of the CofG, this is largely compensated for by CofG envelope.
If the aeroplane is within the CofG envelope when you start the flight - it will be within the the envelope at the end of the flight - except if you are operating with minimum fuel.
Dr
Sorry - this has little to do with the thread, but is an attempt to correct the misconception that in the Bonanza/Baron (I suspect), fuel burn will take you out the back of the CofG envelope.
I apologise for the thread drift, but.....
While I recall this accident, I can't recall the outcome of the crash investigation. If someone can point me to the ASTB report, I would like to read it.
I haven't flown a Baron for a few years but I suspect CofG issues with a Baron are likely to be similar to the Bonanza. If that is the case then it is unlikely this accident was caused solely by a failure to allow for fuel burn in the CofG calculations. It is most likely that the aeroplane was overloaded to start with.
While it is true that in the Bonanza, fuel burn off results in a rearward movement of the CofG, this is largely compensated for by CofG envelope.
If the aeroplane is within the CofG envelope when you start the flight - it will be within the the envelope at the end of the flight - except if you are operating with minimum fuel.
Dr
Sorry - this has little to do with the thread, but is an attempt to correct the misconception that in the Bonanza/Baron (I suspect), fuel burn will take you out the back of the CofG envelope.
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What is an instructor???...............simply someone who imparts knowledge that he/she was shown/taught in the first place. It's 'how' they impart that shown knowledge is where the difference lies. You don't have to be a rocket scientest to be an instructor just someone who can at the time jump thru all the hoops. It's when they are let loose without supervision that they devolope an individual style/personality, again good or bad.
Most in here have seen all types of instructors, good & bad. Like all things in life, if you don't like what yr getting esspcially if yr paying for it then simply choose again !
CW
Most in here have seen all types of instructors, good & bad. Like all things in life, if you don't like what yr getting esspcially if yr paying for it then simply choose again !
CW
FT Driller,
You are correct, from memory the aircraft was overloaded and bags were in the cabin reducing leg room. I seem to recall some of them it was believed had been moved back over the rear seats by the passengers, and then as the fuel burnt off the Cog moment moved too far back resulting in a stall and fatal crash. But that's from memory as it was a long time ago.
You are correct, from memory the aircraft was overloaded and bags were in the cabin reducing leg room. I seem to recall some of them it was believed had been moved back over the rear seats by the passengers, and then as the fuel burnt off the Cog moment moved too far back resulting in a stall and fatal crash. But that's from memory as it was a long time ago.
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I recommend all instructors read 'The Savvy Flight Instructor: Secrets of the Successful CFI' by Greg Brown. CFI stands for Certified Flying Instructor in the US, not Chief Flying Instructor - don't get confused.
This book is fantastic and provides an insight into how not to be the instructor that many people are taking about in this thread.
On a second point, I've flown through the Redcliffe/Caboolture CTAF a number of times in the last year to hear an open mic in a Texan ultralight. The instructor is heard abusing and swearing at his students for the whole world to hear. Anyone at Redcliffe knows about this instructor's poor attitude and airmanship, the locals tell me a number of incident reports have been placed.
This book is fantastic and provides an insight into how not to be the instructor that many people are taking about in this thread.
On a second point, I've flown through the Redcliffe/Caboolture CTAF a number of times in the last year to hear an open mic in a Texan ultralight. The instructor is heard abusing and swearing at his students for the whole world to hear. Anyone at Redcliffe knows about this instructor's poor attitude and airmanship, the locals tell me a number of incident reports have been placed.
"Don't worry,only a few more years to go and we won't have anyany GA inbsructors to complain about".
I agree that's why we need to follow the gliding fraternaties lead and allow instructing to be done at flying / aero clubs by unpaid volunteer instructors with the required experiance up to at least PPL single engine standard.
Let Jet pilots train Jet pilots, Commercial pilots commercial as it is now but leave the ab initio alone or at least the option to train where they feel most comfortable. This I am sure will not only reduce costs but reduce the high drop out rate.
I agree that's why we need to follow the gliding fraternaties lead and allow instructing to be done at flying / aero clubs by unpaid volunteer instructors with the required experiance up to at least PPL single engine standard.
Let Jet pilots train Jet pilots, Commercial pilots commercial as it is now but leave the ab initio alone or at least the option to train where they feel most comfortable. This I am sure will not only reduce costs but reduce the high drop out rate.
PassaFrozo:
Excellent point, however I personally have a problem with the view that people are NOT good pilots just because they are instructors. You weren't saying that, so this is in no way directed at you, but that view does seem to rear its head every now and then in these sorts of topics.
Arrr!
Unfortunately there are a few instructors who believe they are good pilots simply because they are instructors. This is not the case. They are just pilots who have chosen to take a particular course in aviation.
Arrr!
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Scorpion83:
Fortunately, no. All my previous instructors were all well mannered and demonstrated a lot of patience and calmness in building up my competency brick by brick.
If anything one of my instructors (IFR instructor) was probably too laid back. For example, here's me flying a practice NDB approach in real winter IMC, up to my eyes in cockpit workload and concentrating (too much) on handling the radio to separate myself from other traffic, when Captain Instructor calmly turns around to me and says "Tell me QSK, do you really enjoy doing steep descending turns in cloud?" Suddenly, I look at the AH. WTF! Immediate corrective action is applied and we're now back level, except my heart is racing so hard that I thought I was going to have a heart attack. Meanwhile Capt Instructor is still sitting back comfortably in his seat looking out the window as if nothing untoward had happened.
Never forgot to keep looking at the AH again.
Has anyone ever had an instructor that would always yell at you, make you feel stupid and basically rubbish everything you did in the cockpit.
If anything one of my instructors (IFR instructor) was probably too laid back. For example, here's me flying a practice NDB approach in real winter IMC, up to my eyes in cockpit workload and concentrating (too much) on handling the radio to separate myself from other traffic, when Captain Instructor calmly turns around to me and says "Tell me QSK, do you really enjoy doing steep descending turns in cloud?" Suddenly, I look at the AH. WTF! Immediate corrective action is applied and we're now back level, except my heart is racing so hard that I thought I was going to have a heart attack. Meanwhile Capt Instructor is still sitting back comfortably in his seat looking out the window as if nothing untoward had happened.
Never forgot to keep looking at the AH again.
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Scorpion, you will find these people from time to time in this industry. They do this as they need to make up for their own inadequacies.
Ask for another instuctor. I assume you are paying to learn - so technically you are the boss. The hard bit comes later when they are paying you.
Each of us have experienced this and the feeling of not being good enough as a result. What seems like a major problem right now will be a distant memory in years to come. You will over take this person - then you can sh!t on him.
Ask for another instuctor. I assume you are paying to learn - so technically you are the boss. The hard bit comes later when they are paying you.
Each of us have experienced this and the feeling of not being good enough as a result. What seems like a major problem right now will be a distant memory in years to come. You will over take this person - then you can sh!t on him.
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Another possibility is a simple personality clash. Do you know if the instructor is like this with all students, or just with you?
BTW I'm not suggesting its your or anyone elses fault.
Either way - ask the CFI for a different instructor. I reckon, though, it would reflect better on you if you were diplomatic about it.
BTW I'm not suggesting its your or anyone elses fault.
Either way - ask the CFI for a different instructor. I reckon, though, it would reflect better on you if you were diplomatic about it.
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A check pilot will tell you what you are doing wrong. An instructor will tell you what you are doing wrong and show you how to do it right.
There is a lot of psychology involved with instructing. Military instructors have many weeks being trained in basic physiology. Nobody performs well under pressure, so why put a person under pressure? If you want to get the best out of a student, F/O or anyone else for that matter, then let them be in a relaxed environment!
If you are instructing and you are yelling and screaming, then you have the problem and you have lost the plot.
You could be the "best" pilot in the world but if you can't put it across then you aren't the person the training organisation requires.
In the civilian flying club environment there is a commercial aspect that has to be considered also. The student is the customer! The student is keeping the instructor in a job! So bad instructors need to be rooted out from a business point of view as well.
As has been said it is not easy to train a good instructor as they usually need to be "born" with that ability.
There is a lot of psychology involved with instructing. Military instructors have many weeks being trained in basic physiology. Nobody performs well under pressure, so why put a person under pressure? If you want to get the best out of a student, F/O or anyone else for that matter, then let them be in a relaxed environment!
If you are instructing and you are yelling and screaming, then you have the problem and you have lost the plot.
You could be the "best" pilot in the world but if you can't put it across then you aren't the person the training organisation requires.
In the civilian flying club environment there is a commercial aspect that has to be considered also. The student is the customer! The student is keeping the instructor in a job! So bad instructors need to be rooted out from a business point of view as well.
As has been said it is not easy to train a good instructor as they usually need to be "born" with that ability.
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No you are NOT the only one who has had or will have this situation.
As a wide body capt under training, was told that the questions I was occasionally asking "indicated a lack of knowledge". YOU THINK!!!!
As the apparent shortage of Instructors/Pilots gets to bite, many people who shouldn't do instructing will be in those positions, as they have in small numbers always been there.
Most good instructors are actally "born", some may be trained if they have the basic stuff, the rest actually struggle at the task with mixed results.
Some instructors can only teach by "checking" as they have a false sense of the standard, some who cannot reach that standard themselves, and provide only negative comments in the false premise that that will encourage the improvement in the student. The shouters and hitters, YES HITTERS, out there should be removed from the gene pool ASAP
Instructing is like building a brick wall, one "brick" at a time, fully supported by the prvious "brick" and always reviewed at the end of the lesson as to progress, skill development and future expectations in the process.
I have been privilaged to be an Instructor over many years in all classes of Aircraft, now mostly in the Simulator area and the situation you describe is not unique even in our so called "top of the pile", it has to be monitored and eliminated if at all possible by suitable supervision, sadly not always available
Change your Instructor at the very least, or the school if it is necessary and find someonewho will put enjoymentinto the learning process.
Cheers
Greybeard
As a wide body capt under training, was told that the questions I was occasionally asking "indicated a lack of knowledge". YOU THINK!!!!
As the apparent shortage of Instructors/Pilots gets to bite, many people who shouldn't do instructing will be in those positions, as they have in small numbers always been there.
Most good instructors are actally "born", some may be trained if they have the basic stuff, the rest actually struggle at the task with mixed results.
Some instructors can only teach by "checking" as they have a false sense of the standard, some who cannot reach that standard themselves, and provide only negative comments in the false premise that that will encourage the improvement in the student. The shouters and hitters, YES HITTERS, out there should be removed from the gene pool ASAP
Instructing is like building a brick wall, one "brick" at a time, fully supported by the prvious "brick" and always reviewed at the end of the lesson as to progress, skill development and future expectations in the process.
I have been privilaged to be an Instructor over many years in all classes of Aircraft, now mostly in the Simulator area and the situation you describe is not unique even in our so called "top of the pile", it has to be monitored and eliminated if at all possible by suitable supervision, sadly not always available
Change your Instructor at the very least, or the school if it is necessary and find someonewho will put enjoymentinto the learning process.
Cheers
Greybeard
ZERO CRM!
This does not work for me as it makes me extremely nervous and doubt everything I'm doing. He keeps demeaning me and my credentials. This really chips away at confidence levels.
It seems the company knows about them but does nothing. Sometimes these Dbags stand between you and unemployment and trying to keep up with them is exhausting as you have to suck it up.
Has anyone dealt with this at a company level?
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Many years ago I used to have an instructor that was very liberal with the use of the fuel-stick across the knuckles in acknowledgement of any errors on my behalf -usually failing to deselect carb air on short finals... it wasn't unusual to come away from a 30 minute lesson with swollen, painful knuckles on the right hand.
Any Instructor who would have taken such a liberty with me would only have ever done it once!
I would have left him in need of some medical care immediately after the landing, which would have been shortly after the 'incident' occurred.
In any case; Such behaviour is classed as 'assault.'
physicx; Take the matter to a higher authority, immediately!
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In a long career I only encountered a few ‘screaming skulls’ in the cockpit. They all had two things in common : they were mediocre pilots and they were scared of the aeroplane.
Request another instructor, and if that is denied, at least demand that it be put on record.
Request another instructor, and if that is denied, at least demand that it be put on record.
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There used to be an RAAus instructor near Melbourne that smacked your hand when you did something wrong and most students realised that he was much better before 3pm to fly with,
as it was further away from 5pm beer o’clock.
as it was further away from 5pm beer o’clock.
Contact counselling works in these circumstances, but my understanding is that it’s not in vogue (at the moment).
If possible, make a recording of this "instructor" in action. once you are confident you can capture the behavior, tell him what you are doing and that future behavior will be reported. This person is undermining the confidence and safety of your pilot group.
When I was young and inexperienced, I had one unpleasant instructor, who berated my flying and I meekly accepted his behaviour.
These days, if that happened to me again, I would say "You have control. Take me back to base and explain to your boss why I won't pay for this flight!"
These days, if that happened to me again, I would say "You have control. Take me back to base and explain to your boss why I won't pay for this flight!"