25 years of holding at Williamtown
Thread Starter
Dark Knight, you state:
I’m not sure what message you are talking about. What I’m stating – with no understanding from you – is that procedures used at Williamtown were originally developed in probably the 1940s or 1950s. If the Williamtown controllers were allowed to look at what happens in other countries (especially North America – both the USA and Canada) they would see that by introducing modern procedures they could handle the additional traffic in a very safe and efficient way.
VFR aircraft transiting the airspace do just that. They are not actually landing or taking off, so it is not a runway capacity problem.
Also, the times I have been held are for “separation” from civilian aircraft, not military.
As I have mentioned before, such modern procedures as “green in between” and “target resolution” would make the whole operation more efficient. I’m happy to cover the cost of a Williamtown controller travelling to North America and seeing how modern military Class C airspace is operated there.
Did you get the message Dick?
VFR aircraft transiting the airspace do just that. They are not actually landing or taking off, so it is not a runway capacity problem.
Also, the times I have been held are for “separation” from civilian aircraft, not military.
As I have mentioned before, such modern procedures as “green in between” and “target resolution” would make the whole operation more efficient. I’m happy to cover the cost of a Williamtown controller travelling to North America and seeing how modern military Class C airspace is operated there.
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Leave it to the professionals.
Hey, Dick.
What is your obsession with North America.
Any professionals who has operated there knows their system is far inferior to the old Aussie system, unless you are a private pilot in a helicopter, who is getting in the way of the real pilots.
We now have alphabet soup airspace, identified by colours (Why isn't it Blue airspace or Green airspace) and typical American terminology that doesn't even hint at the function of what it is labeling.
I know what Melbourne Control does. What does Melbourne Centre do. Is the centre for tomato growers, nudist.
Next you will be wanting us to "Request lower.", to which you will want ATC to reply, "Expect lower momentarily."
Thanks Dick.
What is your obsession with North America.
Any professionals who has operated there knows their system is far inferior to the old Aussie system, unless you are a private pilot in a helicopter, who is getting in the way of the real pilots.
We now have alphabet soup airspace, identified by colours (Why isn't it Blue airspace or Green airspace) and typical American terminology that doesn't even hint at the function of what it is labeling.
I know what Melbourne Control does. What does Melbourne Centre do. Is the centre for tomato growers, nudist.
Next you will be wanting us to "Request lower.", to which you will want ATC to reply, "Expect lower momentarily."
Thanks Dick.
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Dick,
I'm sure WLM controllers would be able to handle separating aircraft according to class D procedures... if their airspace was class D.
Since it's class C, perhaps you need to get some of your pollie friends to go overseas and see how it's done. They are the ones that decide on the class of airspace.
You owe the controllers an apology for you continued insinuations. They would loose their licences if they used the procedures you suggest.
Pera.
I'm sure WLM controllers would be able to handle separating aircraft according to class D procedures... if their airspace was class D.
Since it's class C, perhaps you need to get some of your pollie friends to go overseas and see how it's done. They are the ones that decide on the class of airspace.
You owe the controllers an apology for you continued insinuations. They would loose their licences if they used the procedures you suggest.
Pera.
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You owe the controllers an apology for you continued insinuations. They would loose their licences if they used the procedures you suggest.
As I have mentioned before, such modern procedures as “green in between” and “target resolution” would make the whole operation more efficient.
Dick if north america is so great for flying.......move there
I think it's time to move the RAAF base to say Evens Head, and let Newcastle Airport become the regions Second Major International Airport!, If the government has to build and pay for a second airport why not make it one for the RAAF....
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No need to build new airport. Leave Newcastle for commercial ops.
No need to move 4 fighter squadrons, an AWACs squadron an ECSS, boeing maintenance facilities from a RAAF base at all. Civvies need to learn that they are guests at Willy town - at least until the Labor government rips the heart out of the ADF.
Thread drift anyway.....
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To Mr Smith
Mr Smith,
Having to hold at Nobby's is just a part of abiding to airspace regulations in Australian airspace.
Regardless of the fact that you've piloted a helicopter to the north pole and read countless Biggle's adventures. RULES APPLY FOR A REASON!!!!!!
Those of us that are fortunate enough to be operating an aircraft around Nobby's must know well in advance that a run down the coast crosses the the extended centreline of RWY12. Taking off in a C17 or microlight or F18 or B737, I would not want traffic crossing my pass from below.
Yes, the boys boys at Albury and Coffs do a good job managing their airspace. But comparing that to Willy.... enough said.
And by the way, poor form for having a cheap shot at AH.
Ps. Hats off for the Balls Pyramid expedition take II.
Having to hold at Nobby's is just a part of abiding to airspace regulations in Australian airspace.
Regardless of the fact that you've piloted a helicopter to the north pole and read countless Biggle's adventures. RULES APPLY FOR A REASON!!!!!!
Those of us that are fortunate enough to be operating an aircraft around Nobby's must know well in advance that a run down the coast crosses the the extended centreline of RWY12. Taking off in a C17 or microlight or F18 or B737, I would not want traffic crossing my pass from below.
Yes, the boys boys at Albury and Coffs do a good job managing their airspace. But comparing that to Willy.... enough said.
And by the way, poor form for having a cheap shot at AH.
Ps. Hats off for the Balls Pyramid expedition take II.
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Dodo
Good points.
I am certain I saw in my last association magazine a big insert by the RAAF (negotiated by them and the association) to encourage and expedite clearances direct across the top of WM wherever possible and avoid the holding.
From memory it needed early advice, not surprising.
I think it demonstrates the value of such issues being canvassed via commonsense minds in meetings that are based on safety outcomes - as happened.
Good points.
I am certain I saw in my last association magazine a big insert by the RAAF (negotiated by them and the association) to encourage and expedite clearances direct across the top of WM wherever possible and avoid the holding.
From memory it needed early advice, not surprising.
I think it demonstrates the value of such issues being canvassed via commonsense minds in meetings that are based on safety outcomes - as happened.
Gundog01 wrote:
Gundog, could you remind me just who the RAAF reports to? Oh yeah, the government of this country..... Now just who does the government ultimately answer to? Oh yeah, the people of this country.... So it stands to reason if the people of this country need to utilise the Williamtown airspace as the population expands to cater for its needs then RAAF Willy will need to get the message and move with the times.... You are effectively a function of the public purse and are (ultimately, if not directly) answerable to the public.
I know how it feels to see a McDonalds restaraunt standing on what was my unit's HQ.... Why, because the public wanted/needed it. Who knows why.
Now where is that monkey (P_A_F), I need to shoot at something.....
Civvies need to learn that they are guests at Willy town - at least until the Labor government rips the heart out of the ADF.
I know how it feels to see a McDonalds restaraunt standing on what was my unit's HQ.... Why, because the public wanted/needed it. Who knows why.
Now where is that monkey (P_A_F), I need to shoot at something.....
.... Op'sN .... dito 
Thread Starter
The “A team” must have been on at Williamtown today. I would like to thank the controllers concerned. I was transiting from the north to the south through the lane, with 5 people on board the Agusta A109, including 3 children below the age of 6.
When I received my clearance at Broughton Island, it was the typical clearance to report at Port Stephens Light at 500 feet. The problem was that there was a 45 knot sou’westerly blowing over the headland at Port Stephens. The turbulence would have been very uncomfortable.
Remember, a little over a year ago, a young pilot ended up with his Cessna 152 in the water in similar winds – luckily living from such an ordeal.
I was just about to request a higher altitude when the friendly controller came back and said that as there was a strong sou’westerly, and there would be turbulence at Port Stephens Light, I was re-cleared to fly at 2,000 feet. The same clearance was given to another aircraft following.
This is excellent, especially when you consider that only a week ago I was told by a regular flyer of the lane that holding at Anna Bay has been worse than ever.
Remember, I have always said our controllers are as good as any in the world – it’s the leadership that is lacking as it resists change.
When I received my clearance at Broughton Island, it was the typical clearance to report at Port Stephens Light at 500 feet. The problem was that there was a 45 knot sou’westerly blowing over the headland at Port Stephens. The turbulence would have been very uncomfortable.
Remember, a little over a year ago, a young pilot ended up with his Cessna 152 in the water in similar winds – luckily living from such an ordeal.
I was just about to request a higher altitude when the friendly controller came back and said that as there was a strong sou’westerly, and there would be turbulence at Port Stephens Light, I was re-cleared to fly at 2,000 feet. The same clearance was given to another aircraft following.
This is excellent, especially when you consider that only a week ago I was told by a regular flyer of the lane that holding at Anna Bay has been worse than ever.
Remember, I have always said our controllers are as good as any in the world – it’s the leadership that is lacking as it resists change.
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The first and only time I have been into Williamtown was a couple of months ago in a 737. I was pleasantly surprised to find that we were given a radar service from Willie approach until the FAF. That is to say we flew overhead the airport at aprx 6000ft for the full procedure before being handed off to the tower once established inbound.
This is the kind of radar service we could use at places Ballina, Hamilton Island and heaven forbid Launceston.
Departing from Maroochydore airliners often we have to level off at low level while still within the confines of the Class D tower airspace out to 8nm at low level only to be 'blocked' from making a redundant 'departure' call due tower frequency congestion.
Then due to the resultant delay from tower handing us off to Brisbane approach, we are forced to fly into class G airspace, which is in fact covered by Bris approach radar. This is a great example of why we should consider reducing the size of the tower controlled airspace and give it to the guys with the radar and giving the radar guys terminal class E instead of G, so they can give an IFR service.
What about giving radar services much closer to the airports, like they gave us at Willie. What do others think?
This is the kind of radar service we could use at places Ballina, Hamilton Island and heaven forbid Launceston.
Departing from Maroochydore airliners often we have to level off at low level while still within the confines of the Class D tower airspace out to 8nm at low level only to be 'blocked' from making a redundant 'departure' call due tower frequency congestion.
Then due to the resultant delay from tower handing us off to Brisbane approach, we are forced to fly into class G airspace, which is in fact covered by Bris approach radar. This is a great example of why we should consider reducing the size of the tower controlled airspace and give it to the guys with the radar and giving the radar guys terminal class E instead of G, so they can give an IFR service.
What about giving radar services much closer to the airports, like they gave us at Willie. What do others think?
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Civvies need to learn that they are guests at Willy town
In my view the military needs to:
1) Remember who pays the bills, and
2) Bear in mind that once a defence force causes more damage to the economy than it is worth, it is in peril.
Mr B.
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And the military are guests at far more civvy aerodromes
I wonder do they pay landing fees at all the council run strips etc?
mjbow......... you emntioned Class E wrt D to C on a thread of Dicks
Incoming
I wonder do they pay landing fees at all the council run strips etc?
mjbow......... you emntioned Class E wrt D to C on a thread of Dicks
Incoming
Jabawocky
Yes they do pay.....got any other things you would like me to correct for you?
Mr Brewster
What is the cost to the economy if your military that you pay for can't do the job because it apparently does more harm to the economy than its worth. Use World War 2 as an example in your reply.
I guess you don't have any insurance because you probably won't ever need it.
mmmm, cranky tonight best I have a beer.
Yes they do pay.....got any other things you would like me to correct for you?
Mr Brewster
What is the cost to the economy if your military that you pay for can't do the job because it apparently does more harm to the economy than its worth. Use World War 2 as an example in your reply.
I guess you don't have any insurance because you probably won't ever need it.
mmmm, cranky tonight best I have a beer.