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25 years of holding at Williamtown

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25 years of holding at Williamtown

Old 18th Dec 2007, 09:12
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what are the odds of an IFR aircraft having an engine failure on take off from 12 and crossing the coast at 500 feet at exactly the same time that a VFR aircraft in the lane is at the same place? It would need the experts to look at it, but it would probably be something like the same odds as 4 engines in a 747 failing at once.
Are you for real? The chances of 4 failing compared to 1? And who said exactly 500 feet? Anyone in my takeoff flightpath at what ever possible conflicting height should not be there.

But then again do the monetary comparison between 150 plus in a jet colliding with 1 in a whatever dickmobile and I am sure the insurance bill would be horrendous for the jet.

But according to your way of thinking your operating costs are more important than the cost of 150 plus lives.

And following your example of highlighting names,.... Dick
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 10:14
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There is at least one 747 I know of that lost all four, are you talking acceptable losses here or affordable safety because you have to turn your aircraft in a circle?
YOU have the hide to go after people for having a go at YOU and you acuse Military people of having no regard for the safety of mums and dads and children. YOU WILL NEVER HAVE MY EAR AGAIN....

edit for induced rage spelling srrors
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 10:45
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Thumbs up

The first topic in the "Similar Threads" box at the bottom of this page shows as:


Idiot near Wiliamtown


Coincidence???

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Old 18th Dec 2007, 10:54
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One more thing to think about Dick, just in case you were not aware, Williamtown is a military airport.

They have jet fighters operating there. Fast ones.

Have you ever seen a jet fighter return to the circuit and do circuit entries?

They are done well below 1,000 feet at high speed and very close to the coast if 12 is in use.

Also are you aware that on many occasions they return with minimum fuel and declare a low fuel state and cannot afford to mess with anyone, including you. They have to land ASAP.

Oh, but sorry says the controller, Dick is holding at nobby's and he wants priority.

Sure thing Bud, I'll just do an eject way off the coast just to make sure he can do his transit at 500.

Oh and by the way, can you send us a rubber ducky and tell dick to have a nice unhindered flight and apologise for any inconvenience we may have caused.

And while you are at it just drop a note to the minister for defense explaining why I just disposed of a $100 mil aircraft in the ocean. When he knows it was to help dick, he will understand.
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 12:29
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Out of the three RAAF joint user bases (DN, TL and WLM) WLM is the only one still classified as a MIL airfield. Your compaints about being held may be valid at DN or TL, but the aggrement to set up Newcastle Airport at WLM is so strict and conditional you don't have a right to complain. Afterall, even RPT jets get held at WLM to make way for MIL jets.

On your other point, ATC don't gamble when they separate aircraft. Odds don't come into play. Safety always comes before expedition, they don't come hand in hand. If something has the potential of causing an accident, it should be done another way. You don't have the authority to bet peoples lives on your so called odds.
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 18:42
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You left it a mighty long time to wind everyone up Dick. Surely your not still holding on to the fact that " Mummy they made me hold at Williamtown". Honestly 25 years ago, get over it. Oh yeah, Didn't Kevin Rudd mention that rich inviduals would no longer be able to influence aviation legislation, I think he may of been referring to you.

By the way, I am building this kit can you remind me of the colour codes on resisters?
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 21:45
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Chief Wiggum, you state:

You then became part of the CAA/CASA, TWICE, yet didn't fix it, now you are complaining because for the second time in 25 years you have had to hold at Nobbys?
You and others appear to have misunderstood my post. It is headed “25 years of holding at Williamtown.” I, and others, have been held hundreds of times over the last 25 years when attempting to transit the Australian coastline at Williamtown.

I am fortunate because I can afford the extra costs, but there are others who can’t.

I look back at the letters I have received from people in the military who have asked me why their kids can’t get a job in aviation. They simply can’t link these additional costs which are applied to general aviation with the fact that general aviation is economically depressed. As I have said before, the difference between success and failure in business is often a razor’s edge.

I remember my 5 year fight back in the “Two Years in the Aviation Hall of Doom” days, where VFR aircraft (including helicopters) were separated as if they were IFR in all controlled airspace in Australia. I, and other helicopter pilots, would be held for 10 or 15 minutes at Hornsby, orbiting together over a built up area, so we could be let into the Sydney control zone at a 3 mile radar standard. If operating from the Darling Harbour helipad pilots were held on the ground for 15 minutes so they could be procedurally separated from one other helicopter.

I worked on this one and eventually solved it. See here. Look at Chapter 6, page 39.

As you mentioned, I was involved with the CAA/CASA – not with the military. There have been some substantial changes in CAA/CASA, but as I mentioned previously there has not been one measurable change in 25 years in the way the military handle their airspace.

This may be acceptable if those in charge have said they have no plans to change, but as I have mentioned, they have constantly told me and others that they plan to make major changes and to bring our rules in line with those accepted in other modern aviation countries.

When I was the Chairman of the CAA back in 1991, I was wined and dined by the head of the Air Force, who told me of his plans to make major changes. Of course, nothing was ever done. We don’t even have Military Operation Areas and we still have illegal restricted areas over international waters.

SM4 Pirate and No Further Requirements, Australia is a sovereign country. We can set our own rules. Our GAAP airports have unique rules that result in very high levels of safety and let us lead the world. This is exactly what we must do in Class E non-radar terminal airspace. That is, if our professional pilots have developed a “standard” for separation when IMC exists in Class G, which gives a very high level of safety, we can change that to a proper separation standard for ATCs to use in Class E. Remember that the ICAO standards are set for third world countries, normally by panels of not very competent bureaucrats. Our only obligation is to notify where we are different.

Why not have the advantages of Class E airspace, with the advantages of what we do now in Class G? That is, the third party involvement of an air traffic controller when in IMC.

Tobzalp, the design of the Willy zone does play a part in the issue – that is, it is 24 miles at ground level and far too large. The times I have been held (over 100 times) have been basically when there are IFR civilian aircraft approaching or departing Williamtown. Military pilots and controllers appear to be quite happy to have aircraft flying in the light aircraft lane at 500 feet when they are operating.

MTOW, you are obviously a professional aviator but you don’t seem to understand that just about every part of aviation is designed on probability. Why else would we now have twin engine aircraft such as Boeing 767s flying the Atlantic? They are clearly not as “safe” as an aircraft with 4 engines, but probability shows that the safety is acceptable.

Are you telling me that professional pilots don’t understand and agree with this probability calculation? You lose credibility if you don’t admit to the situation that actually exists.

Ozbiggles, no, I am not talking about acceptable losses. The Victor lane has substantially improved safety. Instead of air traffic controllers at Sydney having to concentrate on dozens of VFR clearances and separating VFR from VFR (as they did in the 70s) they can concentrate on the heavy jets with lots of passengers.

The chance of a big one hitting a lightie in the Victor lane is so infinitesimal that it is better to put the resources where the risks are.

Olderairhead, I realise that Williamtown is a military airport and there are jet fighters there. But tell me – in the case of a war, won’t the fighter pilots have to look out for other aircraft? They are called the enemy.

In the case of the Williamtown lane, the fighter is given traffic on the VFR aircraft – that is what happens now – and presumably does not run into the aircraft.

As mentioned previously, the holding at Nobbys (and sometimes at Port Stephens Light) is not to separate lighties from military aircraft, it is to separate lighties from Navajos or Beech 1900s that have happened to have filed IFR on a CAVOK day.

Bob55, I can see why there hasn’t been a change made in 25 years. You state:

Odds don't come into play.
I’m sure you would love to go back to the old days where we just had controlled airspace and everything was separated from each other, including VFR helicopters from VFR helicopters. We also had huge amounts of uncontrolled airspace where no separation service was given at all. Believe it or not, the international ICAO airspace system depends on “odds”– i.e. probability. It is designed to give IFR airline aircraft the same level of safety at different locations – whether it be a small airport with one service per day, or a major airport such as Sydney with many hundreds. It is all designed on probability.

Flight Me, just to confirm, I am not complaining for myself. It is the reduction in safety of having three aircraft orbiting over a built up beach where innocent people can be killed. It is also the damage that is being done to the aviation industry which can employ people – probably the children of military officers who don’t understand that their lack of decision making is one of the reasons their kids can’t get jobs.

To all the open minded people who read these posts, isn’t it interesting just how “fundamental” a small number of people are? No doubt these are the people who have closed minds and haven’t looked at how other modern aviation countries handle traffic with extremely high levels of safety, and how in other countries they look very much at cost.
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 22:27
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Things don't change much with prune, I see Dickbashing is still considered a valid pastime. Although now it just seems to be personal abuse.

I would agree with those who said why not just make a lane like Victor one at Willy. I've been held at Nobby's several times with little traffic. How much more traffic is there at SY than Willy? It works there.
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 22:32
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Next year marks the 25th anniversary of my solo flight around the world…
I remember my 5 year fight back in the “Two Years in the Aviation Hall of Doom” days, where VFR aircraft…
I worked on this one and eventually solved it. See here. Look at Chapter 6, page 39.
Mr. Smith posts here remind me of Gilderoy Lockart of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. If you have read the book you may know what I mean. My young son enjoys having it read to him before bed. Young he may be but old enough to recognize Lockart for what he is.
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 22:41
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On the rare occasion I do fly VFR, I’ve never been held at Willy during at least the last 10 years. Not once. I’m usually up that way a few times a month. Admittedly, I never use either of the lanes in either direction – sure, it's nice flight to track coastal or bash around between the mountains of the inland lane but I no longer have the time, nor indeed the desire to be turning or climbing and descending every couple of miles.
All it takes is a quick telephone call to the controller before departure and it’s sorted.

I ALWAYS (even VFR) submit a flight plan and clearance is typically over the top at 10,000. Only once was I sent out around Gloucester or somewhere like that due fighter excersises in one corner of the zone – no big deal - it was a nice day and I enjoyed the scenery and didn't really mind the extra 6 or so minutes it took. If for some reason in the future I am made to hold, then so be it, I'll hold.

Dick, there really is no need to keep throwing your rattle out of the pram - it's becoming most tedious
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 22:42
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Hey, hey, Super Knob is back! Where'v ya been Knob? Dick's been missing his sycophants
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 22:52
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As an airline pilot I used to fly into Amarillo Texas, the home of the V-22 Osprey. For several years I would fly into Amarillo several times a month and the vast majority of the time there were either a B1, F15, C-5 or similar approaching, departing or most often doing touch and goes in the traffic pattern.
The Panhandle VOR is the intersection of 10 (ten) Class E Victor Airways. See here with KAMA being a class C airport. Its interesting to see how similar AMA is to Williamtown with the traffic mix, with AMA having around 270 movements a day (not sure how many Williamtown has) but having much smaller class C boundaries. (5 mile ring surface to 4000ft agl, 10 mile ring 1200 agl to 4000ft and class E outside of and above the class C)
With so many private and uncontrolled Class E airports in the vicinity of AMA there is always VFR traffic transiting through class C. Its interesting to note too that VFR only need to 'establish two way coms' seeAIM 3.2.1 with the approach controller when transiting the class C.
Wouldn't it be nice if our class C was like this too? I don't think it's unreasonable to reduce the size of our class C, limit the tower controllers area of responsibility to the vicinity of the airport and give the rest to an approach controller just like the US.
If they can safely provide a VFR friendly and efficient class C airport with military and airline traffic like Amarillo in the US then we can do it here too.
MJ

Last edited by mjbow2; 18th Dec 2007 at 23:10.
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 22:56
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Enrooted, Gutless shrugged, you blokes nothing to do besides witless, vitriolic replies? Time for you blokes to start making grammar and spelling corrections so you can feel superior. Start 4? That you with another name enRooted? Maybe you should stick to your kiddies books.
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 23:09
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I'm with Dick on this one.

I fly gliders in Qld occasionally and it is just stupid the way Oakey operates, restricting gliders and lighties flying through it's airspace.
They are training helicopter pilots for goodness sake, why do they need ANY airspace over 1000' on a VMC day? They are s£$%scared of a few gliders doing <100kts flying over but may be dodging Afgan ground fire in a few months! Look out the f%$%$ng window!!

Amberly and Richmond are basket cases of airspace, Richmond costs all of us tens of millions of $ per year in extra track miles into SYD. I guess Willy is the same.
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 23:27
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Enrooted, Gutless shrugged, you blokes nothing to do besides witless, vitriolic replies? Time for you blokes to start making grammar and spelling corrections so you can feel superior. Start 4? That you with another name enRooted? Maybe you should stick to your kiddies books.
Firstly, my apologies Dick and others, I'll have to interrupt here just for a minute.

Super Cecil, I have assumed that it is me to whom you refer by the name "Gutless shrugged".

Please note that my user name is Atlas Shrugged.

Whilst it is not my direct concern, I believe that you have already done sufficient damage to your reputation as a professional by the way in which you typically choose to attack for no reason whatever, to warrant serious consideration of me pressing the Report this Post to a Moderator button.

Once again, to Dick and others, my sincere apologies for the thread drift.
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 23:32
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I agree with you Tankengine.

We don't need to restrict VFR traffic near these airports. Its a waste of time and money. Having flown up and down the east coast of the US many time I found it interesting that one of the most common places to find VFR traffic transiting Charleston SC (Mil/Civil) was right over the top of the airport at 4500ft in Class E.
It seems strange that a country like the US can have a proven safe system whereby 4 squadrons of C-17s can operate out of the same airport with VFR/airline/military traffic exceeding 300 movements a day and we seem to be struggling to adopt it.
We are determined not to let light aircraft into the vast swathes of wasted C airspace we have here on a clear VMC day, yet we seem so enamored with sending multiple IFR aircraft into the same radar covered airspace at the same time, such as Avalon, with absolutely no separation services at all. Does anyone else see the irony of this? This is sheer stupidity.
MJ
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 23:42
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I don't know Dick from a bar of soap, and yes, I have been retired a while now, but it seems to me that a lot of you blokes tearing him a new one must have been born with ATPL's. Unless you are ex-military, GA is where YOU originally came from, and it's in trouble. The specific issue Dick raises is merely symptomatic of the mindset that wants me to put $15,000 dollars worth of ADS-B (out) in my $20,000 Jodel, in class 'G'. Dick is right, we are unnecessarily restrictive in too many ways, and out of step with most of the world in airspace management, cut the bloke some slack.
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 23:57
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Start 4? That you with another name enRooted?
Nah mate, not me, only need one username for this purpose.

If you don't user correct grammar and spelling nobody will take you serious.
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Old 19th Dec 2007, 03:25
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Dick I don't give a Rats if you get held for 20 years.
What I care about is your despicable slander of military people.
Standby for further.
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Old 19th Dec 2007, 03:46
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Must be new rules.

When I controlled there (on 2 separate postings) only ever remember holding VFR guys in the lane when doing GCA's onto RWY 30.


And if I remember from when I scanned your book Dick - you said in the text that the only place you ever got held was departing Darwin on the same trip.

Do you change the story to suit your argument?

(PS - I flicked the book...never actually bought it.......)
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