Going around...
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you will have to fight the trim.
Contrary to what some people seem to think, a go-around is not a death-defying procedure.
A 10yo girl might need muscles, anyone else should be okay.
Or are you talking about an A310?
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.....gas chamber I agree with you comments you have valid pionts climb pwr would be enough in yr case as mentioned although in that situation ( the 'mug') 
one would like to believe that nobody is going to come on out onto the rwy & get in yr way 'cause at that level of crappy wx & aviating the pilot ought to be experienced enough to know yr there, not yr w/e driver who flies only VFR & is in a semi concious state most of the time
Oh that will get up some noses am sure, hope it does 'cause I see that ALL the time & their dangerous ! Just the other week I had to contend with a real DH who just simply had no idea of the big picture despite 2 way R/T comms, & he had a pilots license !!!!
Still it's a good subject to get pilots thinking here & that can only make things better.
Capt Wally
one would like to believe that nobody is going to come on out onto the rwy & get in yr way 'cause at that level of crappy wx & aviating the pilot ought to be experienced enough to know yr there, not yr w/e driver who flies only VFR & is in a semi concious state most of the timeOh that will get up some noses am sure, hope it does 'cause I see that ALL the time & their dangerous ! Just the other week I had to contend with a real DH who just simply had no idea of the big picture despite 2 way R/T comms, & he had a pilots license !!!!
Still it's a good subject to get pilots thinking here & that can only make things better.
Capt Wally
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Scotty; I've just finished half a bottle of a good Aussie Red and I don't understand Capt Wally's post anyway, so being pissed won't help I would think.
That said, come on Wally; You can do better than that.! Your previous posts on other threads are'nt anywhere near that incoherent!! Admit that you were stirring!
That said, come on Wally; You can do better than that.! Your previous posts on other threads are'nt anywhere near that incoherent!! Admit that you were stirring!
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Well done Gas chamber!!
A pity there are so many aeroplane drivers around and so few Pilots!
I once sat beside QF's [former] Standards manager as he went around in Sydney from 300' after an aircraft was too slow on the runway departing.
These "SOP only" experts would say his very gentle go-around and early left turn [so as not to be right over the guy in front - but not std!!] were unproffesional!?
A word one of my old instructors [ex WW2] used was AIRMANSHIP!
That said, in the **** use SOPS.
A pity there are so many aeroplane drivers around and so few Pilots!
I once sat beside QF's [former] Standards manager as he went around in Sydney from 300' after an aircraft was too slow on the runway departing.
These "SOP only" experts would say his very gentle go-around and early left turn [so as not to be right over the guy in front - but not std!!] were unproffesional!?
A word one of my old instructors [ex WW2] used was AIRMANSHIP!
That said, in the **** use SOPS.
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.........don't understand my post hey?..............read it when you guys are sober You need to read the whole thread to understand my words.
Am sure what I wrote will go straight over some heads here, that's fine like flying, there are different 'levels' for everyone !
Please refrain from personal attacks in here guys, I read often in here that some can't quite control their anger. If you don't understand then move on !
Capt Wally
You need to read the whole thread to understand my words.Am sure what I wrote will go straight over some heads here, that's fine like flying, there are different 'levels' for everyone !
Please refrain from personal attacks in here guys, I read often in here that some can't quite control their anger. If you don't understand then move on !
Capt Wally
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...........ok 'carbon' TY but I am not here to 'spoon feed' everyone with ABC comments, am sure it makes sense to those that have a similar background to myself. Remember also that the written word is the hardest form of comms. It's expressionless & emotionless .Some 'read' into articles what they want to read.
Capt Wally
, am sure it makes sense to those that have a similar background to myself. Remember also that the written word is the hardest form of comms. It's expressionless & emotionless .Some 'read' into articles what they want to read.Capt Wally
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No personal attack intended, Capt. W.
But as for your "levels" comment: you are so right.
The levels of English comprehension demonstrated here are very often embarrassing when it is a professional pilot in question.
But as for your "levels" comment: you are so right.
The levels of English comprehension demonstrated here are very often embarrassing when it is a professional pilot in question.
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This thread has migrated from a VFR/VMC early go-around to an IMC-at-the-minimums discussion.
Rule one: flight manual.
Rule two: SOPs.
If you are in VMC/VFR approach, then obviously it is not going to be so stressful, but i would still follow the flight manual/SOPs. Unfortunately, most FMs don't include a "getting ready on base to go around because of a slow aircraft in front" contingency.
So far many people have mentioned turbo-charged/ piston engines. As for turbo-prop/ turbine engines I would doubt anybody argues against full power/MaxCT/EPR/ITT/EGT etc (again, follow flight manual limitations)
I hope that we are talking about day VMC here, in a cat B (300ft) or cat C or D (400ft) aircraft. Remaining visual to circle below the MDA should only happen if you can satisfy the obstacle clearance rules (ie day).
I would be very surprised if you would fail the checkride if it was at night (refer to my paragraph on visual circling above). I also doubt that you would fail a checkride if you followed SOPs. Besides, minimum reserve fuel should include 30 minutes plus 10% of whatever your flight fuel was. That should cover you if some ?#$% should taxi onto the runway in front of you (very small probability) (and no doubt CASA/ATSB would want to talk to that individual also)
(plus if the Wx was forecast to be this crap you would have holding/ alternate fuel anyway)
Rule one: flight manual.
Rule two: SOPs.
If you are in VMC/VFR approach, then obviously it is not going to be so stressful, but i would still follow the flight manual/SOPs. Unfortunately, most FMs don't include a "getting ready on base to go around because of a slow aircraft in front" contingency.
So far many people have mentioned turbo-charged/ piston engines. As for turbo-prop/ turbine engines I would doubt anybody argues against full power/MaxCT/EPR/ITT/EGT etc (again, follow flight manual limitations)
Here is a common enough scenario that shoots the full power, clean it up and go around every-time-as-per-SOP theory down. Suppose you have a circling minima of 500 ft. You have arrived off the NDB approach (or whatever) with minimum legal fuel and get visual at 500 ft - maybe a bit higher - but the cloud is most certainly solid overcast at 550 to 600 ft. Now at 300 or 400 ft on final some mug taxies onto the runway, forcing you to go-around, or maybe you just screw it up and get too high, or too far off centerline. Are you going to instinctively go into the full missed approach scenario and climb back into cloud? Bad, bad choice. Ease the power up to what is needed (probably no more than climb power on most twins due to the inertia and small height gain required), return the flaps and gear to circling configuration for the particular airplane type, and level off at 500 ft for another go.
Once you go back into that cloud you have no choice but to conduct another instrument approach with less than minimum reserves. THAT my friends is poor airmanship, and in the past has resulted in more than one pilot failing a checkride.
(plus if the Wx was forecast to be this crap you would have holding/ alternate fuel anyway)
Last edited by pilotshorvath; 18th Dec 2007 at 14:58. Reason: holding/alternate fuel
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ScottyD,
Should you ever take up flying C180/185 series, may I suggest you don't complete the famil flight without doing a go-around from a full flap landing. You may then learn about trim forces that can be required in a go-around.
G'day
Should you ever take up flying C180/185 series, may I suggest you don't complete the famil flight without doing a go-around from a full flap landing. You may then learn about trim forces that can be required in a go-around.
G'day
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Yes I realise there are trim forces. I have a few grand up in many different types of lighty BUT every single one of them was made to be flown with one hand on your stick (or yoke), one hand on your throttle and one hand on your prong.... You fly your go-around and then you trim out the forces.
As Chopper says, harden the
up!!!
As Chopper says, harden the
up!!!
The question from boardpig was "I’m sure there are a few views on this, can anyone tell me if I should be balls to the wall on every go around?"
I think you made a good call Mate. From the scenario you've described a full power go around is making more work for yourself.
To give some background the mob I work for have introduced 'the discontinued approach'. An airline at a major airport had a crew perform a go around when they were within 500 feet or so of the published level off. The aircraft failed to capture the altitude (3000' or thereabouts) and they found themselves at 6000' before sorting the whole shooting match out. This resulted in some avoiding actions and in the wash up The Authority recommended a procedure to adopt when in the same situation or similar. So we adopted it...
It is simply to arrest the rate of descent, set a speed to accelerate to, take away the drag flap setting, start a gentle climb which allows you to retract the gear and clean up in turn. All very sedate and often the punters down the back aren't aware you've 'gone around'. IMHO usable from lighties to transport jets (IAW SOP's, operator approval yadda yadda yadda)
In boardpig's case I like your thought process. Maybe it gave your instructor something to think about...
I think you made a good call Mate. From the scenario you've described a full power go around is making more work for yourself.
To give some background the mob I work for have introduced 'the discontinued approach'. An airline at a major airport had a crew perform a go around when they were within 500 feet or so of the published level off. The aircraft failed to capture the altitude (3000' or thereabouts) and they found themselves at 6000' before sorting the whole shooting match out. This resulted in some avoiding actions and in the wash up The Authority recommended a procedure to adopt when in the same situation or similar. So we adopted it...
It is simply to arrest the rate of descent, set a speed to accelerate to, take away the drag flap setting, start a gentle climb which allows you to retract the gear and clean up in turn. All very sedate and often the punters down the back aren't aware you've 'gone around'. IMHO usable from lighties to transport jets (IAW SOP's, operator approval yadda yadda yadda)
In boardpig's case I like your thought process. Maybe it gave your instructor something to think about...
Feather #3 said it Scotty, I assure you a ten year old girl is not going to be holding a C172 on go around with full flap and the aircraft trimmed to 60-65 knots - and it takes a few seconds to clean up even with electric trim and electric flaps.
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applied thought...
I should say that I've been bug splatting for a fair few years and am well aware of the "standard" teachings of the go around. I remember reading recently of an accident involving a pilot who was getting endorsed on a particular single engine aircraft that had more than power available than he had experienced in the past. (I'm sorry for the lack of detail; I'll try to dig the article out). Anyways he was allowed out on his first solo and had to go around. Using the method he had been taught as "standard" he applied full power and promptly went nose up and lost control on the aircraft.
The article in question was an investigation into the fact that he "should" have been taught that in that particular aircraft, a full power go around could result in problems in certain configurations.
I guess I'm just trying to say that each approach etc is different and the situation may require or necessitate a different response other than the standard. When on base I always imagine I'm going to have to go around, so I consider cloud base, traffic in the circuit, surrounding obstacles, weight etc and sometimes arresting the decent only, cleaning up and "going around" seems the safer option. I've even seen an occasion where pax don’t even know you've gone around, they thinks its an additional part to the scenic ;-)
Each situation is different of course.
Ready to be shot down...
The article in question was an investigation into the fact that he "should" have been taught that in that particular aircraft, a full power go around could result in problems in certain configurations.
I guess I'm just trying to say that each approach etc is different and the situation may require or necessitate a different response other than the standard. When on base I always imagine I'm going to have to go around, so I consider cloud base, traffic in the circuit, surrounding obstacles, weight etc and sometimes arresting the decent only, cleaning up and "going around" seems the safer option. I've even seen an occasion where pax don’t even know you've gone around, they thinks its an additional part to the scenic ;-)
Each situation is different of course.
Ready to be shot down...
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Boadrpig
Just did the Nathan Higgins human factors course which mentions a pilot taking-off from YBAF in a bonanza with elevator trim set in the full nose-up position (15/03/81)
PIC was unfamiliar with trim position indicator and a/c was previously flown by pilot who's landing technique involved the use of full nose-up trim.
The a/c flew the length of the runway near the stall then banked sharply, decended into trees and exploded into flames. All 5 pob escaped - pilot with serious burns.
Wasn't a case of, as one tool says, hardening up, but of knowing the A/C.
PIC was unfamiliar with trim position indicator and a/c was previously flown by pilot who's landing technique involved the use of full nose-up trim.
She tried to reach for the throttle to reduce power but was unable to hold the nose down with only one hand on the control column
Wasn't a case of, as one tool says, hardening up, but of knowing the A/C.
Smoka - my recollection of that prang was that the aircraft was also overloaded and out the back of the C of G - I am sure someone in here will correct me if I am wrong.
I recall the press at the time praising the pilot for her skill in crashing into a creek, which largely put the fire out!
Dr
PS: Can't say I have tried a full nose-up trim TO in an A36 (or the FTDK for that matter) but given the elevator forces normally associated with an A36 (compared for instance to the C210), I suspect a full nose-up trim TO would be do-able in the A36 - one handed!
I recall the press at the time praising the pilot for her skill in crashing into a creek, which largely put the fire out!
Dr
PS: Can't say I have tried a full nose-up trim TO in an A36 (or the FTDK for that matter) but given the elevator forces normally associated with an A36 (compared for instance to the C210), I suspect a full nose-up trim TO would be do-able in the A36 - one handed!
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article
Just found the article, was on AVWEB a while ago. This case was a warbird but the conclusion is the same.
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/pe..._195755-1.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/pe..._195755-1.html