Grow Balls We Must!
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Grow Balls We Must!
Airlines are competing against each other for pilots, minimums are dropping and planes are being parked up due lack of crew. Each major carrier has massive aircraft orders on the way and they have every intention of ramping up their recruitment over the next few years so that they can crew these planes. The regionals' are doing road shows. AFAP is full of advertisements from entry level right through to the jets. Retention is at an all time low and progression is astounding. Student pilot numbers are low and not increasing plus there are not enough instructors to teach them. China, India and others are entering the market and are set for massive unprecedented growth. For the first time in decades every single pilot in Aus/NZ with a CPL is in an extremely good position because jobs are plentiful.
So why the
are you still paying 10, 20, 30 THOUSAND DOLLARS for a job???? 
Wake up fellas! 
They are the ones competing now, not us. Now we can afford to actually be selective on whom we work for.
This idea of pilot unity has been around for a while and has never got off the ground, mainly because the numbers have been against us. Supply vs. demand, so many looking at so few jobs that of course under cutting is going to occur. If you didn’t accept the terms you didn’t get the job. Fair enough, it makes paying for an endorsement understandable. Not saying I agree but it IS understandable.
Not anymore. There is a global shortage of our professional skills. If we cannot get some sorry-ass form of unity together now then we will completely miss this golden opportunity to improve the terms and conditions that all pilots love to bitch about.
Paying for a job now makes even less sense than it did before!
There is a question on the VB application asking:
Are you prepared to pay any applicable type rating costs?
Available answers are yes or no. All it takes is enough people to say no, and that will be that. I answered no and strongly advise all to do the same. Grow some balls for fcuk sake. It isn’t that hard. If we push for this it WILL happen. In fact, the way things are going it will probably happen anyway. How would you feel if you were in the last group to pay? Don’t let it be you.
The same goes for Qlink, J*, V Australia and any others.
We are in a position of strength now like never before. Lets stop accepting things as they are and take positive control of our future. Australian and Kiwi pilots are well respected globally because we demand high standards of ourselves. Why can’t we demand high standards from our employers? This pay for your job sh^t just doesn’t cut it anymore. Forget about the guys that have gone on before you because it’s too late for them, the change needs to start with the guys still in GA. That’s us mate.
It’s time to say no. Grow balls we must!
So why the
are you still paying 10, 20, 30 THOUSAND DOLLARS for a job???? Wake up fellas! They are the ones competing now, not us. Now we can afford to actually be selective on whom we work for.
This idea of pilot unity has been around for a while and has never got off the ground, mainly because the numbers have been against us. Supply vs. demand, so many looking at so few jobs that of course under cutting is going to occur. If you didn’t accept the terms you didn’t get the job. Fair enough, it makes paying for an endorsement understandable. Not saying I agree but it IS understandable.
Not anymore. There is a global shortage of our professional skills. If we cannot get some sorry-ass form of unity together now then we will completely miss this golden opportunity to improve the terms and conditions that all pilots love to bitch about.
Paying for a job now makes even less sense than it did before!
There is a question on the VB application asking:
Are you prepared to pay any applicable type rating costs?
Available answers are yes or no. All it takes is enough people to say no, and that will be that. I answered no and strongly advise all to do the same. Grow some balls for fcuk sake. It isn’t that hard. If we push for this it WILL happen. In fact, the way things are going it will probably happen anyway. How would you feel if you were in the last group to pay? Don’t let it be you.
The same goes for Qlink, J*, V Australia and any others.
We are in a position of strength now like never before. Lets stop accepting things as they are and take positive control of our future. Australian and Kiwi pilots are well respected globally because we demand high standards of ourselves. Why can’t we demand high standards from our employers? This pay for your job sh^t just doesn’t cut it anymore. Forget about the guys that have gone on before you because it’s too late for them, the change needs to start with the guys still in GA. That’s us mate.
It’s time to say no. Grow balls we must!
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I totally agree.
I was down at Jandakot last weekend and couldn't believe the lack of flying. When I did my training the place was chock full of operators. Now the only ones seemingly doing any training were private weekend pilots and chopper pilots.
I'm glad I got out of the industry (for personal reasons - namely I couldn't stand the backstabbing and hypocrisy by very immature individuals who, where they to be in another industry they'd have been punched) but do miss the thrill.
I was down at Jandakot last weekend and couldn't believe the lack of flying. When I did my training the place was chock full of operators. Now the only ones seemingly doing any training were private weekend pilots and chopper pilots.
I'm glad I got out of the industry (for personal reasons - namely I couldn't stand the backstabbing and hypocrisy by very immature individuals who, where they to be in another industry they'd have been punched) but do miss the thrill.
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I was fortunate enough to go through my career with airlines that did not make you pay for your endorsements. From GA to regionals to airlines... However I did pick fruit as a young lad, worked stacking shelves, delivering fliers, worked in bars and you name it... to help pay for my licence and I sure as hell know that my fruit picking money would never have gone to pay for the privelidge of working for a company.
There is going to be a revolution history here in aviation - we just need to work together a little bit so we can 'milk' the benefits as much as possible, and make sure we get every dollar and cent we're worth.
There is going to be a revolution history here in aviation - we just need to work together a little bit so we can 'milk' the benefits as much as possible, and make sure we get every dollar and cent we're worth.
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Well said flyingbuddha 
You are right, this is a 'golden opportunity' for us all...and i really hope we don't let it slip. But it will only happen if we all stick together
...
You are right, this is a 'golden opportunity' for us all...and i really hope we don't let it slip. But it will only happen if we all stick together
...
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I liken the whole pay for endorsement thing to 'gethomeitis'. A lot of us have been in the game for a long time and are sick of GA. Once you get to that point where you can almost see the end you will do anything to make it home.
That’s why guys with offers from these companies are in a 'difficult' situation. Saying no, will be passing up the opportunity of progressing after such a hard slog to get there. Your right, that takes balls.
I also agree that the competition for jobs has swung into a competition for pilots. This is the main reason why I will no longer consider paying the endorsement fees they ask for, where as 12 months ago I might have. It is now sheer madness.
It is still early days yet. As this shortage deepens, operators will truly begin to get desperate for crew and have to resort to employing 'lowlife bludgers' like us who expect to be paid for training instead of the other way round!
But as you say, we could hasten his process (as we always could have) by collectively saying enough is enough. Yes, this is the best opportunity we have had to accomplish this but I still don't see it happening. It will only happen when there isn’t enough of the 'I have no balls' pilots’ left to fill the spots. Then the rest of us will get a look in, if we haven't already left for better jobs that is.
It's up to each individual GA pilot to decide which group he/she wants to be in. Seeing as we've all been through the same sh^t together, flown together, drunk together and laughed together, it would be nice if we could also stand together on an issue that we all fundamentally agree on anyway.
Not to pay.
That’s why guys with offers from these companies are in a 'difficult' situation. Saying no, will be passing up the opportunity of progressing after such a hard slog to get there. Your right, that takes balls.
I also agree that the competition for jobs has swung into a competition for pilots. This is the main reason why I will no longer consider paying the endorsement fees they ask for, where as 12 months ago I might have. It is now sheer madness.
It is still early days yet. As this shortage deepens, operators will truly begin to get desperate for crew and have to resort to employing 'lowlife bludgers' like us who expect to be paid for training instead of the other way round!
But as you say, we could hasten his process (as we always could have) by collectively saying enough is enough. Yes, this is the best opportunity we have had to accomplish this but I still don't see it happening. It will only happen when there isn’t enough of the 'I have no balls' pilots’ left to fill the spots. Then the rest of us will get a look in, if we haven't already left for better jobs that is.
It's up to each individual GA pilot to decide which group he/she wants to be in. Seeing as we've all been through the same sh^t together, flown together, drunk together and laughed together, it would be nice if we could also stand together on an issue that we all fundamentally agree on anyway.
Not to pay.
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As long as there is PFT, there is no pilot shortage. VB, J* will continue to charge and simply lower there standards until there are no more applicants.
Seriously, what 22 y/o with 500TT wouldn't pay 30K to get a job on a 737 or airbus??
Seriously, what 22 y/o with 500TT wouldn't pay 30K to get a job on a 737 or airbus??
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I don't agree with your definition of a pilot shortage, but interesting point about the minimums.
How low will they drop the minimum requirements before dropping the PFT? All the way?
That makes me sick
what a pack of c*^ts.
How low will they drop the minimum requirements before dropping the PFT? All the way?
That makes me sick
what a pack of c*^ts.
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flyingbuddha: great call mate
sure we've all gotta do the hours building thing, but that doesn't mean you act like a doormat or work for free. everyone has bills to pay, pilot or not and if work isnt paying you enough to pay these, best grow a pair and ask your boss for a raise or find a new job and set out your terms in the interview, (even for those bug smashing 210 jobs!), beggers cant choosy!!!
paying for an endorsement like 73... or a320......
depends if they're paying you enough to live comfortably and make the repayments for the loan. if they pay you **** and want you to shell out for an endorsement then thats the same as flying a 210 around the bush for an operator who says he's doing you a favour by giving you hours. bottom line is if they want you to pay for an endorsement they'd better be making it worth your while in salary!
this is something that instructors should tell you during your training.
sure we've all gotta do the hours building thing, but that doesn't mean you act like a doormat or work for free. everyone has bills to pay, pilot or not and if work isnt paying you enough to pay these, best grow a pair and ask your boss for a raise or find a new job and set out your terms in the interview, (even for those bug smashing 210 jobs!), beggers cant choosy!!!
paying for an endorsement like 73... or a320......
depends if they're paying you enough to live comfortably and make the repayments for the loan. if they pay you **** and want you to shell out for an endorsement then thats the same as flying a 210 around the bush for an operator who says he's doing you a favour by giving you hours. bottom line is if they want you to pay for an endorsement they'd better be making it worth your while in salary!
this is something that instructors should tell you during your training.
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flyingbudda...I too agree with your sentiments......
...the black ink momentun has been hard won,with many casualties along the way.Its disturbing to think of the number of airline employees that have lost or given up their jobs during the industrys recovery...this is the human cost of airline survival and it is a story that remains to be fully told
Ask any airline CEO what his or her biggest challenge is and you had better hear something related to maintaining customer service and treating employees right....(yeah right!!!!!)
The customers are paying the bills,and the employees are making the sacrifices.The last thing a customer needs is a flight that isnt worth the price,the last thing the employee needs is executives getting bonuses for the "wonderful" jobs theyve done squeezing the last drop out of the system ...airlines where these things happen are the ones that should be out of buisness....and airlines that charge or make you pay for endorsments should also be out of buiness......because training pilots to fly "their" equipment just happens to be the "cost of doing buisness"..
....and for those of you who pay for the endorsement upfront.....you have just cut your own throats....
...the black ink momentun has been hard won,with many casualties along the way.Its disturbing to think of the number of airline employees that have lost or given up their jobs during the industrys recovery...this is the human cost of airline survival and it is a story that remains to be fully told
Ask any airline CEO what his or her biggest challenge is and you had better hear something related to maintaining customer service and treating employees right....(yeah right!!!!!)
The customers are paying the bills,and the employees are making the sacrifices.The last thing a customer needs is a flight that isnt worth the price,the last thing the employee needs is executives getting bonuses for the "wonderful" jobs theyve done squeezing the last drop out of the system ...airlines where these things happen are the ones that should be out of buisness....and airlines that charge or make you pay for endorsments should also be out of buiness......because training pilots to fly "their" equipment just happens to be the "cost of doing buisness"..
....and for those of you who pay for the endorsement upfront.....you have just cut your own throats....
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Come on lets get some more support for this thread.
Pprune is as good a place as any to start building some momentum against certain industry practices such as paying for endorsements.
We need to change the belief among the GA pilot group that there are 50 other guys and girls behind you waiting to snatch your job if you choose to decline or negotiate an offer in the attempt to raise conditions. This isn't happening enough in Aviation, we are being offered raw deals and we are accepting them.
I know there have been plenty of similar threads to this in the past but I think that times have changed significantly enough to re-visit this issue.
Show your support. If enough people get behind this and post their views then maybe we can start shifting perspectives and positively influence our industry.
Pprune is as good a place as any to start building some momentum against certain industry practices such as paying for endorsements.
We need to change the belief among the GA pilot group that there are 50 other guys and girls behind you waiting to snatch your job if you choose to decline or negotiate an offer in the attempt to raise conditions. This isn't happening enough in Aviation, we are being offered raw deals and we are accepting them.
I know there have been plenty of similar threads to this in the past but I think that times have changed significantly enough to re-visit this issue.
Show your support. If enough people get behind this and post their views then maybe we can start shifting perspectives and positively influence our industry.
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flyingbuddha: great idea champ!
another word of advice for the newbies out there....
BECOME A UNION MEMBER!!!!! www.afap.org.au
the year after i left broome, (which was where i got my first gig) there was not a fresh pilot in town who hadn't gotten a start by the dry season, they were even advertising for 210 pilots, never seen that before! if it doesn't start changing now it never will. You're an aviation company's most valuable asset, with no pilots their planes dont fly hence dont make them money.... you've gotta spend money to make money, about time GA companies did.
V
another word of advice for the newbies out there....
BECOME A UNION MEMBER!!!!! www.afap.org.au
the year after i left broome, (which was where i got my first gig) there was not a fresh pilot in town who hadn't gotten a start by the dry season, they were even advertising for 210 pilots, never seen that before! if it doesn't start changing now it never will. You're an aviation company's most valuable asset, with no pilots their planes dont fly hence dont make them money.... you've gotta spend money to make money, about time GA companies did.
V
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Depends whether you're short-term selfish or long-term selfish (you are a pilot, after all 
).
If you are short-term selfish, you will limit your future earning potential and pay for your type rating.
If you are long-term selfish, you will not.
Just a thought...
FlyingBuddah
LP
).If you are short-term selfish, you will limit your future earning potential and pay for your type rating.
If you are long-term selfish, you will not.
Just a thought...
FlyingBuddah
LP
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Nice to have you with us 4X but lets try to keep this thread positive and constructive.
It could all too easily slip into another slagging match between pilots, and once again Pprune will have identified itself as a forum of bickering disgruntled whinging pilots who think the world is against them.
We can do better than that.
It could all too easily slip into another slagging match between pilots, and once again Pprune will have identified itself as a forum of bickering disgruntled whinging pilots who think the world is against them.
We can do better than that.
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I agree too flying budda. This whole "paying for rating" thing should all be over soon. Theres still good airlines out there that dont make you pay.
The way it should be!
The way it should be!
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Hey im one of those guys sitting on the fence of what to do. Its hardly a market of jobs for us GA pigs once we hit the 1500/500ME mark. Ive had my resume out for 3 months with no interest from the bigger players and im standing on the position of whether to cop out and pay for the endo. I understand that many of you guys/gals out there spent alot longer in GA back in the dark times however when you cruise at flight levels and sit back in sip your coffee its easy for you to blame us. As far as i see it the power will always be in the hand of the employer and they know that we want the job otherwise we would not have a submitted an application.
Im sick of all the pounding us GA guys are getting for paying for endo's
If you want things to change you guys also have to put your money where your mouth is and stick up for the industry. As far as im concerned i did not put this industry in the state that its is in ie lowest payscales ever and paying for endos, YOU guys did so help us fix it, rather than hound on us for doing exactly the same as YOU did.
Im sick of all the pounding us GA guys are getting for paying for endo's
If you want things to change you guys also have to put your money where your mouth is and stick up for the industry. As far as im concerned i did not put this industry in the state that its is in ie lowest payscales ever and paying for endos, YOU guys did so help us fix it, rather than hound on us for doing exactly the same as YOU did.
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quote......As far as im concerned i did not put this industry in the state that its is in ie lowest payscales ever and paying for endos, YOU guys did so help us fix it, rather than hound on us for doing exactly the same as YOU did.
DUff shark....well mate...Iunderstand you sentiment......But Ive been in the game for just on 28yrs,,,.......and personally,I never put you there.....never paid for an endorsement(out of my pocket)and never intend to.......sorry to ruin your day
DUff shark....well mate...Iunderstand you sentiment......But Ive been in the game for just on 28yrs,,,.......and personally,I never put you there.....never paid for an endorsement(out of my pocket)and never intend to.......sorry to ruin your day
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lets not get into the blame game,
duff shark, with those hours, your in a good postion. there should be no reason for you to pay for a type rating to "get ahead"
PM if you want some help with the job hunt, as i said, theres plenty out there that dont make you pay!
duff shark, with those hours, your in a good postion. there should be no reason for you to pay for a type rating to "get ahead"
PM if you want some help with the job hunt, as i said, theres plenty out there that dont make you pay!