Deceptive Position Call at Longreach
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As for AG planes?............well don't get me started on those cowboys!......like some truckies.................I was once told by a heavy hauler in response to my statement "you guys think you own the road!"...........he said........nope...........just the black bit !!!!!
(did you not learn properly in the first place?)...........well obviously most have not been at the controls of 5+ tons when a 'cowboy' decides to drop on in extremely close via a x strip that would have been out of the range of most GA A/C's x-wind capabilities & sail past as if they where King D...!!!
Luckily I know that not all 5+ tonne pilots are tarred with the same brush, unlike us ag folk.
PS what is the MTOW of an airtractor 802?
And what's so different about 5 tonne aeroplanes? Flown plenty of 0.5 tonne aeroplanes and flown 400 tonne aeroplanes, all do pretty much the same thing. If some cowboy drops in in front of you, the 0.5 tonne aeroplane has 0.5 tonne + a little bit of lift and the 400 tonne aeroplane has 400 tonne + a little bit of lift. Use the appropriate amount of lift and get out of the way! Can't be that hard surely.
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.......pigdog............ obviously you missed the part about 'energy management' in a heavy jet endorsement lesson...................0.5 tonne plane will get out of the way of almost any hazard with a quick instant response from the controls...........400 tonnes or even 5 tonnes for that matter simply will not be that agile & turn at a far greater arc now wouldn't it be interesting to see an AG plane cut off a 747, the Capt might choose to go right thru him seeing as he would have scant little time to do much else !.....anyway am not going to debate about that all of this is just opinions..............if you & most of the others out there think that all AG operators out there are playing by the book then you ought to check on the gnomes at the bottom of yr garden they too are laughing ! 
Capt wally :-)
Capt wally :-)
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Well well wally, what a stuck up indivudal. While you sit in your little cockpit and label people as cowboys and such, spare a thought for others who use the airspace in your 8 ton little world. ( oh by the way a lot of agricultural aircraft weigh over 7.2 tons today) Time for you to go back to your latte set old chap and dream about what you could of been, instead of bitter and twisted!
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........ahhh my poor unlearned college (sadly). I see yr level of intell doesn't quite fit here as you have displayed.............remember to be in that world you say I live in I had to start at the bottom (where you still are!). Anyway personal attacks show a low level in many ways.........that yr obviously good at, stay there "sumhorizon" there's no room for the uneducated further up the professional food chain! My comments are mine only from personal experience, not directed at any individual as you sadly like to do. Also have a look at what this site is called PPRUNE..........then first letter is Professional, something that you & no doubt others whom will show their ugly faces here by attacking me sadly lack!......now where's yr SOH buddy?...............only hope yr not in a 2 crew environment.......God help the Capt for surely yr not as such!
Capt Wally
My comments are mine only from personal experience, not directed at any individual as you sadly like to do. Also have a look at what this site is called PPRUNE..........then first letter is Professional, something that you & no doubt others whom will show their ugly faces here by attacking me sadly lack!......now where's yr SOH buddy?...............only hope yr not in a 2 crew environment.......God help the Capt for surely yr not as such!Capt Wally
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[QUOTE]Capt Wally..............safer at Flight levels.... Yes you need to stay there, but make sure that your Capt takes control for you below 10000'. That way we will all be in safe hands!!!
Capt Wally, I am quite aware of radius of turn and manoueverability of large and small aircraft.
Firstly radius of turn depends upon one thing and one thing only and that is airspeed, not size of the aircraft. Due to the incredible hi lift devices used on many heavy aircraft, they are able to manouever at speeds similar to some lighter aircraft, they will therefore have a similar radius of turn. An A380 at mlw has an approach speed of 137kt, a Piper Aerostar could easily be doing 200 kts in the circuit. At these speeds the A380 will have a significantly smaller radius of turn.
Secondly, manoueverability is dependant upon two things, size of flight controls and thrust available maintain airspeed. Many larger aircraft have stabilisers, essentially meaning that the entire horizontal tail surface is a flight control. In roll they not only have relatively large ailerons which are augmented by spoilers. This means that if required the aircraft has incredible manoueverability in pitch and roll. Additionally if abrupt pitch changes are made, the aircraft most likely has sufficient thrust to ensure that the aircraft can climb away easily. Compare how a lightweight twin jet such as a 737 is able to climb away compared to a Cherokee 6 or similar. You cannot tell me that the lighter aircraft has a better ability to climb out of the way of trouble.
There are many factors that effect the amount of airspace an aircraft may use when manouevering, but weight is not primarily one of them. The primary factors are speed, thrust and flight control capability.
I am not condoning any unprofessional behaviour when flying in CTAF's etc, just trying to point out the flaw in your argument regarding weight and manoueverability.
Firstly radius of turn depends upon one thing and one thing only and that is airspeed, not size of the aircraft. Due to the incredible hi lift devices used on many heavy aircraft, they are able to manouever at speeds similar to some lighter aircraft, they will therefore have a similar radius of turn. An A380 at mlw has an approach speed of 137kt, a Piper Aerostar could easily be doing 200 kts in the circuit. At these speeds the A380 will have a significantly smaller radius of turn.
Secondly, manoueverability is dependant upon two things, size of flight controls and thrust available maintain airspeed. Many larger aircraft have stabilisers, essentially meaning that the entire horizontal tail surface is a flight control. In roll they not only have relatively large ailerons which are augmented by spoilers. This means that if required the aircraft has incredible manoueverability in pitch and roll. Additionally if abrupt pitch changes are made, the aircraft most likely has sufficient thrust to ensure that the aircraft can climb away easily. Compare how a lightweight twin jet such as a 737 is able to climb away compared to a Cherokee 6 or similar. You cannot tell me that the lighter aircraft has a better ability to climb out of the way of trouble.
There are many factors that effect the amount of airspace an aircraft may use when manouevering, but weight is not primarily one of them. The primary factors are speed, thrust and flight control capability.
I am not condoning any unprofessional behaviour when flying in CTAF's etc, just trying to point out the flaw in your argument regarding weight and manoueverability.
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............pigdog yr way over the top now, I wasn't going to go into the intricacies & depth like you have made here, you would loose a lot of pilots that fly more basic machines & rarely consider yr statements, there's inertia also ( a factor you didn't mention) as you would know that has a lot to do with an aircrafts ability esspecially a heavy craft to 'get out of the way quickly',am more concerned about A/C's positions such as prior to ldg therefore no where near circuit speeds etc..............I'm not going to go back & forth here with you butting heads or anyone else for that matter,am sure none of us here want to be insulted by the uneducated. As you seem to know more than most now there's also engine response time (thrust as you mentioned) in order to assisit in getting out of the way of an intruding plane, turbines are slower to react esspecially just before touchdown, but we both know that now don't we :-).If my words appear flawed to you as you say then that's purely yr assumption & I didn't get the basic point across to you in the first place.
The original comment was refering to the cowboys within the AG industry, (I also mentioned elsewhere that I met a few great ones since passed away sadly) there's cowboys in all facets of aviation, not picking on them persay just poor airmanship seems to go hand in hand with some of them & one can only make those assumptions from first hand experience like everything, something along the lines of the original thread of poor airmanship.
And ty 'sumhorizon" at least this time you where not insulting. I'll ask the Capt to take over blw 10k ft, I only hope I listen to myself !
Capt Wally
The original comment was refering to the cowboys within the AG industry, (I also mentioned elsewhere that I met a few great ones since passed away sadly) there's cowboys in all facets of aviation, not picking on them persay just poor airmanship seems to go hand in hand with some of them & one can only make those assumptions from first hand experience like everything, something along the lines of the original thread of poor airmanship.
And ty 'sumhorizon" at least this time you where not insulting. I'll ask the Capt to take over blw 10k ft, I only hope I listen to myself !
Capt Wally
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Clearing the air!!
Capt Wally.
Have seen lear jets do barrell rolls on take off, Dash 8's do low level beat ups and countless other reckless acts. But never have I classed your industry as a bunch of cowboys, you have them and so do we but neither you or I deserve to be classed as such. I took offence to your remarks as did a lot of my industry. Here is looking to more fruitfull debates in the future.
Have seen lear jets do barrell rolls on take off, Dash 8's do low level beat ups and countless other reckless acts. But never have I classed your industry as a bunch of cowboys, you have them and so do we but neither you or I deserve to be classed as such. I took offence to your remarks as did a lot of my industry. Here is looking to more fruitfull debates in the future.
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.....hey sumhorizon that's fine, I always mentioned the fact that there are rouge elements such as cowboys in all sectors of our industry,not just yrs (if that's where you fly). barrel rolls in a Learjet?........shall take yr word on that although just about any plane could do that with a positive G maneuver as did the prototpye 707 ) It's just that the original thread was aiming at poor airmanship & the AG fraternity where mentioned before I hoped in on the bandwagon, they have their fair share of them as we all do. I didn't invent the word cowboy for the AG guys, just happen to agree that's all, am sure those in that sector know only too well they operate like that, & quite often!......yes more fruitful debates, without being personal ok? So shall we drink to that?
.....................Capt Wally
So shall we drink to that?.....................Capt Wally
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Have'nt done Ag now for a few years(bloody drought) Mostly overseas flying survey now, but will definatly go back to Ag if it ever rains again!!. And yes I think I'll nearly drink to anything.
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Thanks for the PM sent to me concerning the pilot of the homebuilt that made the deceptive circuit call at Longreach. If everything I was told is kosher his lack of airmanship is becoming commonplace and likely to attract the attention of the authorities. My ATSB incident report was filed last Friday. Maybe there'll be more.
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Capt Wally,
Re maneuverability issues:
1) A fully loaded AG plane has minimal excess power / thrust available - first runs can require the aircraft to be nursed into the air with very gentle turns until some product is sprayed / spread.
2) An 802 IS a turbine and also has "engine response lag"
3) Basic physics / aerodynamics - a 400 ton aircraft generates 80 times the lift of a 5 ton aircraft and 400 times the lift of a 1 ton aircraft. If the controls can generate the same pitch / roll rates (and you don't stall because of a higher wing loading) it will be just as responsive as a lighter aircraft at the same speed.
Pig Dog - well explained.
W
PS In the old days I remember hearing and seeing numerous regional airliners "joining downwind" on a 4nm final. It is safer now days because at least you know where they are.
PPS I don't fly AG - mind you I'd love to if didn't involve chemicals.
Re maneuverability issues:
1) A fully loaded AG plane has minimal excess power / thrust available - first runs can require the aircraft to be nursed into the air with very gentle turns until some product is sprayed / spread.
2) An 802 IS a turbine and also has "engine response lag"
3) Basic physics / aerodynamics - a 400 ton aircraft generates 80 times the lift of a 5 ton aircraft and 400 times the lift of a 1 ton aircraft. If the controls can generate the same pitch / roll rates (and you don't stall because of a higher wing loading) it will be just as responsive as a lighter aircraft at the same speed.
Pig Dog
- well explained.W
PS In the old days I remember hearing and seeing numerous regional airliners "joining downwind" on a 4nm final. It is safer now days because at least you know where they are.
PPS I don't fly AG - mind you I'd love to if didn't involve chemicals.
