Private helicopter training / ownership
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Private helicopter training / ownership
Dear All,
Hope someone has time and / or interest enough to give me some expert advice here.
My boss here at work (CEO of Big Bloodsucking Corporation Inc) will shortly retire to his estate in the Southern Highlands of NSW. Appropriately cashed up with enormous super payout and stock options, and with lots of business commitments still in Sydney, he is wondering about the commute (yes, sounds like a nice problem to have, doesn't it..)
Because I don't have anything else to do (!), he's asked me to advise him on whether he's too old (60) to learn to fly a helicopter, if not, how should he go about it, what sort of helo would he buy, blah blah.
It's been a while since I had any need to understand civilian licences and so on, but my initial thinking is:
Anyone have any differing views, ie step straight into the chopper instead of fixed wing? (he's never flown anything before).
Also, I searched on Bankstown, but any suggestions as to who I can call for advice, rates etc on helicopter training?
appreciate any and all advice,
SW
Hope someone has time and / or interest enough to give me some expert advice here.
My boss here at work (CEO of Big Bloodsucking Corporation Inc) will shortly retire to his estate in the Southern Highlands of NSW. Appropriately cashed up with enormous super payout and stock options, and with lots of business commitments still in Sydney, he is wondering about the commute (yes, sounds like a nice problem to have, doesn't it..)
Because I don't have anything else to do (!), he's asked me to advise him on whether he's too old (60) to learn to fly a helicopter, if not, how should he go about it, what sort of helo would he buy, blah blah.
It's been a while since I had any need to understand civilian licences and so on, but my initial thinking is:
- He should think about doing a fixed wing PPL first, in order to assimilate basic skills at a lower cost and level of complexity
- He can then step up to a PPL (H) on a Robinson or similar
- NVFR would probably be a minimum requirement, but IFR is an extra step up again - I'd recommend taking the Jag if the wx is $hite
Anyone have any differing views, ie step straight into the chopper instead of fixed wing? (he's never flown anything before).
Also, I searched on Bankstown, but any suggestions as to who I can call for advice, rates etc on helicopter training?
appreciate any and all advice,
SW
Swingwing
This is a very interesting question, and as an "older" fixed-wing pilot who has always fancied himself as a chopper pilot after few hours "cattle spotting" for helimustering I will be interested to read the responses.
Let me state up front that I don't know much about helicopter training, but in true PPRuNE fashion I will not let that stop me from having an opinion.
I know 2 blokes who, being over 50 and with no previous aviation experience, decided to learn to fly a chopper. It took both of them two Robbies each to achieve their PPL(H). Both pranged one early on in their training.
I reckon if you are only going to fly a chopper, why bother with the fixed-wing, focus on learning to fly the chopper. Someone headed down this track should not be worrying about trying to save a few $ by getting a fixed-wing PPL first.
Choice of chopper for both training and subsequently might also be an issue. There appears to be a bit of a cloud forming over Robbies, or at least their rotors.
I know of at least one guy who bought a Jetranger and learnt to fly in the machine he intended to operate. He didn't seems to have any problems and I have read that that is a good way to go if you have the coin.
Dr
This is a very interesting question, and as an "older" fixed-wing pilot who has always fancied himself as a chopper pilot after few hours "cattle spotting" for helimustering I will be interested to read the responses.
Let me state up front that I don't know much about helicopter training, but in true PPRuNE fashion I will not let that stop me from having an opinion.
I know 2 blokes who, being over 50 and with no previous aviation experience, decided to learn to fly a chopper. It took both of them two Robbies each to achieve their PPL(H). Both pranged one early on in their training.
I reckon if you are only going to fly a chopper, why bother with the fixed-wing, focus on learning to fly the chopper. Someone headed down this track should not be worrying about trying to save a few $ by getting a fixed-wing PPL first.
Choice of chopper for both training and subsequently might also be an issue. There appears to be a bit of a cloud forming over Robbies, or at least their rotors.
I know of at least one guy who bought a Jetranger and learnt to fly in the machine he intended to operate. He didn't seems to have any problems and I have read that that is a good way to go if you have the coin.
Dr
He should think about doing a fixed wing PPL first, in order to assimilate basic skills at a lower cost and level of complexity He can then step up to a PPL (H) on a Robinson or similar
NVFR would probably be a minimum requirement, but IFR is an extra step up again - I'd recommend taking the Jag if the wx is $hite
If, as it sounds, cash is not a major obstacle, he would be better off with as many helicopter hours training as he could get. Why learn on planks if he has no requirement for a plank licence?
As for NVFR and IFR, on a privately operated helicopter, on a newly issued PPL(H) licence you'd be biting off an awful lot. He'd be better off getting a PPL(H) and a pilot. May cost more, but he'll live longer to spend what remains. Try reposting in Rotorheads forum, you'll get more advice than you'll know what to do with!
P1
NVFR would probably be a minimum requirement, but IFR is an extra step up again - I'd recommend taking the Jag if the wx is $hite
If, as it sounds, cash is not a major obstacle, he would be better off with as many helicopter hours training as he could get. Why learn on planks if he has no requirement for a plank licence?
As for NVFR and IFR, on a privately operated helicopter, on a newly issued PPL(H) licence you'd be biting off an awful lot. He'd be better off getting a PPL(H) and a pilot. May cost more, but he'll live longer to spend what remains. Try reposting in Rotorheads forum, you'll get more advice than you'll know what to do with!
P1
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Helicopter for 60 yr old rich dude
Well, they do say opinions are like a&%*holes; everyone's got one, and as Monsieur FTDK notes, you'll get stacks of advice on rotorheads, but if it's any use to you, here's my tentative opinion, based on the very little little info I have about your boss. (I fly fixed wing and helis, privately, with about 1400 TT fixed wing, 350 TT heli, btw)
60's not too old to learn, per se, all things being equal. Flying helis, like flying in general, comes down to attitude. And that's the real question, here, I think - what is this guy's attitude like? Cos the thing is, people who have made their own money often have a pretty poor attitude when it comes to flying - not always, but often - as they don't necessary understand that the laws of physics can't be charmed, bent, or manipulated in quite the same way that successful business executives can bend social circumstances like laws, markets, and so on. If your man is keen to learn and not overconfident - ie HUMBLE - then sure, I'm sure he could learn to fly a heli, and operate his own, eventually. I would agree about no IFR and no night flying - and would also recommend that if he was going to do it, that he have some sort of "mentor" program going, so he had an old hand to call on, whenever he had some sort of problem or question. Which of course he will.
There are a number of risk factors in flying helis, in my opinion. Being weathy is definitely one of them. Operating privately, without the experience & rules of an appropriate organisation, is another. Owning and operating your OWN machine is another. There are many others which may or may not apply to your guy, but there's three for a start. The gaps can all be filled in with ATTTITUDE, of course, but it's probably a good idea to be careful here. So my answer is YES, he can learn to fly helis, so long as he has the right attitude, doesn't cut corners, and is prepared to put LOTS of time into learning to do it properly. If he sees flying helicopters as an airborne version of driving, he may well have problems at some stage...
Oh, and Robbies? I don't think they're more dangerous than any other helicopters, blade AD notwithstanding. They do require more conservatism than some other machines, primarily cos of the light rotor system, and yes, a well maintained turbine like a Jetranger would certainly be a safer bet than a Rbbie, I reckon. Depends how much money he has, of course - a Jetranger would probably cost four times, per hour, than an R22 to operate, not to mention acquisition costs.
So there's a few random thoughts for ya. Hope they're hopeful...
60's not too old to learn, per se, all things being equal. Flying helis, like flying in general, comes down to attitude. And that's the real question, here, I think - what is this guy's attitude like? Cos the thing is, people who have made their own money often have a pretty poor attitude when it comes to flying - not always, but often - as they don't necessary understand that the laws of physics can't be charmed, bent, or manipulated in quite the same way that successful business executives can bend social circumstances like laws, markets, and so on. If your man is keen to learn and not overconfident - ie HUMBLE - then sure, I'm sure he could learn to fly a heli, and operate his own, eventually. I would agree about no IFR and no night flying - and would also recommend that if he was going to do it, that he have some sort of "mentor" program going, so he had an old hand to call on, whenever he had some sort of problem or question. Which of course he will.
There are a number of risk factors in flying helis, in my opinion. Being weathy is definitely one of them. Operating privately, without the experience & rules of an appropriate organisation, is another. Owning and operating your OWN machine is another. There are many others which may or may not apply to your guy, but there's three for a start. The gaps can all be filled in with ATTTITUDE, of course, but it's probably a good idea to be careful here. So my answer is YES, he can learn to fly helis, so long as he has the right attitude, doesn't cut corners, and is prepared to put LOTS of time into learning to do it properly. If he sees flying helicopters as an airborne version of driving, he may well have problems at some stage...
Oh, and Robbies? I don't think they're more dangerous than any other helicopters, blade AD notwithstanding. They do require more conservatism than some other machines, primarily cos of the light rotor system, and yes, a well maintained turbine like a Jetranger would certainly be a safer bet than a Rbbie, I reckon. Depends how much money he has, of course - a Jetranger would probably cost four times, per hour, than an R22 to operate, not to mention acquisition costs.
So there's a few random thoughts for ya. Hope they're hopeful...
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There's plenty of guys his age (and older) getting around in choppers that the have learnt to fly late in life, HOWEVER make sure he goes and gets his medical before he starts!
I knew of a guy who bought a chopper, started training, spent craploads, only to find out that he couldn't get a medical because he is diabetic! Sounds simple I know, but for someone who knows little about aviation, an easy mistake to make.
If you had a PPL from memory it's around 38 hours to convert to rotary, so add that to the minimum 40, say 60 he'd need to get fixed wing.
I knew of a guy who bought a chopper, started training, spent craploads, only to find out that he couldn't get a medical because he is diabetic! Sounds simple I know, but for someone who knows little about aviation, an easy mistake to make.
If you had a PPL from memory it's around 38 hours to convert to rotary, so add that to the minimum 40, say 60 he'd need to get fixed wing.
There's some good advice here, Lostpiano has made some very valid points.
As a long time helicopter and fixed wing driver(yes, I have FW multi, etc, but still don't reckon running up and down runways to get airborne will ever catch on
), I always recommend that new starts should go FW to gain airmanship, etc, before progressing to the extra manipulative skills required for helicopter. Regardless of age.
Time to solo for (most) helicopter pilots is significantly greater than for trainee fixed wing, and this is inevitably as a result of the high workload required. Not just learning to balance an inherently unstable machine, using both hands, both feet, but also using the spare to read maps, change radio freqs, etc.
How much easier is it to get the airmanship out of the way on a stable aircraft which will fly itself (as a good traning aircraft should), gain a PPL(FW), then use part of those hours as a credit toward the PPL(H)?
Re the helicopter choice: that'll be dependant on the individual's preference and budget, but please, please, keep well away from homebuilts, R22's, and anything that hasn't been thoroughly inspected before purchase. The JetRanger is a good choice, reliable, predictable, comfortable (if well maintained and track & balanced), and cheap to run. The R44 is a competitor, but it's only pilot + 3 pax, and no baggage space, Cf the JetBox 4 pax and a reasonable boot.
My 2 cents' worth
As a long time helicopter and fixed wing driver(yes, I have FW multi, etc, but still don't reckon running up and down runways to get airborne will ever catch on
), I always recommend that new starts should go FW to gain airmanship, etc, before progressing to the extra manipulative skills required for helicopter. Regardless of age.Time to solo for (most) helicopter pilots is significantly greater than for trainee fixed wing, and this is inevitably as a result of the high workload required. Not just learning to balance an inherently unstable machine, using both hands, both feet, but also using the spare to read maps, change radio freqs, etc.
How much easier is it to get the airmanship out of the way on a stable aircraft which will fly itself (as a good traning aircraft should), gain a PPL(FW), then use part of those hours as a credit toward the PPL(H)?
Re the helicopter choice: that'll be dependant on the individual's preference and budget, but please, please, keep well away from homebuilts, R22's, and anything that hasn't been thoroughly inspected before purchase. The JetRanger is a good choice, reliable, predictable, comfortable (if well maintained and track & balanced), and cheap to run. The R44 is a competitor, but it's only pilot + 3 pax, and no baggage space, Cf the JetBox 4 pax and a reasonable boot.
My 2 cents' worth
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I know a fellow who after many years of PIFR and twin time decided a "Mix Master Belonga Jesus Christ" was a better way to go, he was past 60 at the time and did very well with the learning. Started on an R22 and now has an R44. I have flown with hime and I woulds say his skills were better than average, but I am a fixed wing guy only. But overall he has taken to it no trouble at all.
Having said that a Newbie at 60+ will need some attitude checks, and that is the issue if he is a smart ass. Otherwise go for it. But as others have said, stick to the good VFR days at least for a few years, then go train some more. Easy does it, coz its easy to drill yaself into the dirt or worse
I know a fellow who after many years of PIFR and twin time decided a "Mix Master Belonga Jesus Christ" was a better way to go, he was past 60 at the time and did very well with the learning. Started on an R22 and now has an R44. I have flown with hime and I woulds say his skills were better than average, but I am a fixed wing guy only. But overall he has taken to it no trouble at all.
Having said that a Newbie at 60+ will need some attitude checks, and that is the issue if he is a smart ass. Otherwise go for it. But as others have said, stick to the good VFR days at least for a few years, then go train some more. Easy does it, coz its easy to drill yaself into the dirt or worse
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I started to learn in a helicopter aged 61. Trained mainly in a R22. I started in April and had PPL(H) at end of October 2006. It probably took me longer to master basic skills and co-ordination than younger students but I certainly did not find age a hindrance otherwise. I wish I had done it when younger. Having a science background helps with some of the exams. I also did the Robinson Safety course and the instructor mentioned that pilots who have previously flown fixed wings are at disadvantage in an emergency because they tend to revert to initial training and make the wrong move eg push cyclic forward resulting in low g disaster. So I would not advise doing fixed wing training first as really nothing to gain. I had never flown anything before I started. The other important thing mentioned already is passing the medical. But this should not be a problem if the person is reasonably fit. I think it is important to keep fit if you are going to fly because that helps to keep mind alert as well. Although this is important at all ages I would recommend it specially for people my age.
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Thanks for the great and very helpful replies so far everyone.
Lostpianoplayer - thanks particularly for your salient points around supervision and flying discipline. Without a "system" around you (I learnt in the RAAF where there are always plenty of blokes to tell you when you're pushing too hard, and I'm sure GA's no different) you are liable IMHO to get yourself into trouble.
Add in the fact that only experience can produce the kind of judgement that you will inevitably need to save your life at some point, and I think that guys like my boss are at higher risk. Accordingly, I think your points about having a pilot / experienced mentor on call are very well made.
Also interested in the diversity of views around starting on FW vs starting on rotary. As well as the fact that I think a Cessna 150 / Skyfox etc would be a much easier ask to start with, I simply looked at the cost delta per hour for instructional time between FW / RW.
Still, as someone said above, guess it depends on how many hours you can save when converting from fixed PPL to rotary.
thanks again guys - any more opinions still gratefully received.
SW
Lostpianoplayer - thanks particularly for your salient points around supervision and flying discipline. Without a "system" around you (I learnt in the RAAF where there are always plenty of blokes to tell you when you're pushing too hard, and I'm sure GA's no different) you are liable IMHO to get yourself into trouble.
Add in the fact that only experience can produce the kind of judgement that you will inevitably need to save your life at some point, and I think that guys like my boss are at higher risk. Accordingly, I think your points about having a pilot / experienced mentor on call are very well made.
Also interested in the diversity of views around starting on FW vs starting on rotary. As well as the fact that I think a Cessna 150 / Skyfox etc would be a much easier ask to start with, I simply looked at the cost delta per hour for instructional time between FW / RW.
Still, as someone said above, guess it depends on how many hours you can save when converting from fixed PPL to rotary.
thanks again guys - any more opinions still gratefully received.
SW
Originally Posted by swingwing
Also interested in the diversity of views around starting on FW vs starting on rotary. As well as the fact that I think a Cessna 150 / Skyfox etc would be a much easier ask to start with, I simply looked at the cost delta per hour for instructional time between FW / RW.
As I mentioned, it is enormously easier to learn to use radios, read maps, etc., in a FW than in a helicopter, which makes the learning curve much more efficient.
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Well done lads. Nice to see an even and calculated response to a reasonable question. In fact something I have often pondered. Hours alone do not maketh the driver. Attitude, attitude, attitude. Good luck that man.
D
D
When I was a lad, the great Athol Jury took me aside and gave me some advice. If I ever wanted to do a CPL(H) then the most cost effective way of getting there was via CPL(A) and do the conversion . Reasons given were much the same as Mr Eacott's advice.
It could very well be lineball re-cost delta PPL(H)training from ab-initio to licence vs PPL(A)+ conversion. Experience and airmanship would haveto be easier learning in fixed then converting to fling.
It could very well be lineball re-cost delta PPL(H)training from ab-initio to licence vs PPL(A)+ conversion. Experience and airmanship would haveto be easier learning in fixed then converting to fling.
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Begin w fixed wing v rotary for PPL(H)
I can't comment on the financial side of it, not being familiar with Oz rules. From a practical/educational standpoint though...
I don't, personally, think going thru F/W first is ideal in all circumstances. I'm not saying these guys are wrong, just my opinion, but...
It's certainly true that experienced FW people have an easier run going to helis, but I don't think we're talking about an experienced FW person here are we? We're talking about getting a PPL(A) and then continuing more or less straight away with PPL(H) training, yeah? Unless there's going to be a reasonable time frame to "bed down" fixed wing flying habits, build experience, and so on, I think it would be better to start and go on with (H) training only. It's true, the learning curve is sharper, but then there will also be no F/W habits to unlearn later on. Particularly important I think when those F/W habits are NEW habits, which your man won't have had time to experience properly and think thru thoroughly. These new habits could surface at a bad time, the best example being the famous "shove forward cyclic" recovery technique that FW pilots bring to RW. Perfect in a FW recovering from a stall/gaining airspeed for control/etc, not so wise in an R22. (It took me a year of constant practice, in my car, at work, whatever, to be sure I would "dump" my LEFT hand, not my right, in a RW crisis)
Robinson is correct in saying that high time FW pilots are another risk factor for helicopters, or Robbies anyway, for a number of different reasons. Not all of these would apply to your (presumably) LOW-time FW pilot, but it's still another risk factor.
My personal opinion would be that, all things being equal, one would be best to immerse oneself totally in the art and science of helicopter flying; to read widely, hang out on the (more civilised parts of) pprune and so on; to try hard to not be in a "money-saving" mentality - cos penny pinching can be almost unbelievably expensive; to cultivate relationships with experienced - and COMMUNICATIVE - helicopter pilots/instructors; try to focus only on the heli flying (ie not trying to shoehorn instruction between stressful business meetings); be in no hurry to buy a heli (especially cos it's not nearly as cheap as it looks, and owning makes renting look like a bargain); and practice like a madman. Oh, and don't forget the "ongoing training" part of safe new PPL operation - ideal to go for dual once a month, I reckon, maybe once every two.
And just a parting comment on the R22. Personally, I think it's a good machine. I know it gets a bad rap - I see the comment above re ultralights, and I have a friend, an RNZAF Iroquois pilot, who will fly anywhere with me in any aeroplane but won't get in the 22 - and I HOPE I'm not putting my life in danger flying my own. For what it's worth, I would never fly a homebuilt helicopter (I do fly a number of homebuilt F/Ws) but I'm quite happy with the 22. I think its primary "flaw" is its lightweight rotor system, which means you have 0.8 of a second - apparently - to dump collective on engine failure. That, and the need for carb heat, mean it's not a forgiving machine, and best suits people who are kinda nutty about helis and fly all the time, think. If I had my way, that reaction time would be tripled. The 44 has a lot more intertia in the rotor system, and best suits people who may not fly so much, and have other interests outside aviation too. (Can you believe it - some people do. I find that bizarre
I hope that's helpful.
I don't, personally, think going thru F/W first is ideal in all circumstances. I'm not saying these guys are wrong, just my opinion, but...
It's certainly true that experienced FW people have an easier run going to helis, but I don't think we're talking about an experienced FW person here are we? We're talking about getting a PPL(A) and then continuing more or less straight away with PPL(H) training, yeah? Unless there's going to be a reasonable time frame to "bed down" fixed wing flying habits, build experience, and so on, I think it would be better to start and go on with (H) training only. It's true, the learning curve is sharper, but then there will also be no F/W habits to unlearn later on. Particularly important I think when those F/W habits are NEW habits, which your man won't have had time to experience properly and think thru thoroughly. These new habits could surface at a bad time, the best example being the famous "shove forward cyclic" recovery technique that FW pilots bring to RW. Perfect in a FW recovering from a stall/gaining airspeed for control/etc, not so wise in an R22. (It took me a year of constant practice, in my car, at work, whatever, to be sure I would "dump" my LEFT hand, not my right, in a RW crisis)
Robinson is correct in saying that high time FW pilots are another risk factor for helicopters, or Robbies anyway, for a number of different reasons. Not all of these would apply to your (presumably) LOW-time FW pilot, but it's still another risk factor.
My personal opinion would be that, all things being equal, one would be best to immerse oneself totally in the art and science of helicopter flying; to read widely, hang out on the (more civilised parts of) pprune and so on; to try hard to not be in a "money-saving" mentality - cos penny pinching can be almost unbelievably expensive; to cultivate relationships with experienced - and COMMUNICATIVE - helicopter pilots/instructors; try to focus only on the heli flying (ie not trying to shoehorn instruction between stressful business meetings); be in no hurry to buy a heli (especially cos it's not nearly as cheap as it looks, and owning makes renting look like a bargain); and practice like a madman. Oh, and don't forget the "ongoing training" part of safe new PPL operation - ideal to go for dual once a month, I reckon, maybe once every two.
And just a parting comment on the R22. Personally, I think it's a good machine. I know it gets a bad rap - I see the comment above re ultralights, and I have a friend, an RNZAF Iroquois pilot, who will fly anywhere with me in any aeroplane but won't get in the 22 - and I HOPE I'm not putting my life in danger flying my own. For what it's worth, I would never fly a homebuilt helicopter (I do fly a number of homebuilt F/Ws) but I'm quite happy with the 22. I think its primary "flaw" is its lightweight rotor system, which means you have 0.8 of a second - apparently - to dump collective on engine failure. That, and the need for carb heat, mean it's not a forgiving machine, and best suits people who are kinda nutty about helis and fly all the time, think. If I had my way, that reaction time would be tripled. The 44 has a lot more intertia in the rotor system, and best suits people who may not fly so much, and have other interests outside aviation too. (Can you believe it - some people do. I find that bizarre
I hope that's helpful.
