Aussie Professional Pilots--USA Aviation Industry Q
Thread Starter
Aussie Professional Pilots--USA Aviation Industry Q
If anyone has any questions concerning the aviation industry in the United States, general availability of different types of flying jobs, payscales etc, feel free to post here with your questions, and I will do my best to answer them for you.
I have lived here for over a decade, and can probably answer most common questions on the above subject.
If anyone in Australia has been able to obtain a green card or other work Visa to enable them to work here and has any questions, again, just let me know.
I know, in most people's cases, this is the main stumbling block, and short of entering the Diversity Visa lottery in the hopes of getting the opportunity to apply for a green card, it can be very difficult to obtain one.
I have lived here for over a decade, and can probably answer most common questions on the above subject.
If anyone in Australia has been able to obtain a green card or other work Visa to enable them to work here and has any questions, again, just let me know.
I know, in most people's cases, this is the main stumbling block, and short of entering the Diversity Visa lottery in the hopes of getting the opportunity to apply for a green card, it can be very difficult to obtain one.
Last edited by aussie027; 9th Jun 2007 at 02:32.
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027, the question i have is - How are things going over there?
Are conditions in the airlines and larger regionals improving or not?
Whats the supply and demand situation like with regard to airline jobs?
What are South West pilots paid? I hear that its one of the better airlines to work for.
Are conditions in the airlines and larger regionals improving or not?
Whats the supply and demand situation like with regard to airline jobs?
What are South West pilots paid? I hear that its one of the better airlines to work for.
Thread Starter
Mr Hat,
I just spent OVER AN HOUR dictating an extremely in-depth and detailed response to your questions, which this website, then deleted right out of this response box without me touching a single key due to some
error in the site!!!
All of my work has been lost. So when I have more time and have calmed down, I will attempt to rewrite all my commentsand post them at a later date..
I just spent OVER AN HOUR dictating an extremely in-depth and detailed response to your questions, which this website, then deleted right out of this response box without me touching a single key due to some
error in the site!!!All of my work has been lost. So when I have more time and have calmed down, I will attempt to rewrite all my commentsand post them at a later date..
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aussie027,
Can I recommend typing your posts into a word processor first. Gives you the advantage of professional and personalized spell checking, grammar checking and thesaurus use, aside from preventing the problem you mentioned.
Simply paste it onto the website when you're happy with it.
Works for me.................
Snooze
Can I recommend typing your posts into a word processor first. Gives you the advantage of professional and personalized spell checking, grammar checking and thesaurus use, aside from preventing the problem you mentioned.
Simply paste it onto the website when you're happy with it.
Works for me.................
Snooze
Thread Starter
Captain snooze, I am taking your advice, it has been a long time since I lost that much data. I am using Dragon Naturally Speaking 9.5 to write my forum responses, it takes a while to get used to using this voice recognition software, and it seems to be making lots of mistakes which need correcting.
The regional airlines are expanding, as they are taking over some of the mainline flying from the legacy carriers. Half the major/legacy carriers are still in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and are not hiring crews. There are still approximately 7000 to 8000 pilots still on furlough from these airlines from 9/11.
The other half of these carriers have emerged from Chapter 11 and re calling furloughed pilots as well as hiring new pilots off the street.
There is no shortage of applicants and well qualified ones at that who are applying to the major carriers. Most of these pilots come from either the military, or from the regional airlines where they have gained FAR Part 121 airline experience which is pretty much a necessity to get hired at a major.
During this recall, there have been a large number of pilots who have not accepted recall to their previous companies. For those of you who are unfamiliar with this situation, I'll briefly explain. After 9/11, the airline's furloughed over 12,000 pilots, this means people are basically laid off in reverse seniority order and when the airline starts hiring again when times get better they recall in seniority order. All pilots who were furloughed must be offered recall before they can start to select new hires from off the street.
As many of you have no doubt read in Australian magazines, employees at the majors, have taken 30 to 50% pay cuts as well as losing all of their pensions and many other benefits since 9/11.
The regional airlines are in the same position as the regionals in Australia, they are dropping minimums to next to nothing, now less than 500 hours total and 50 hours multi at many carriers. In order to try and get sufficient applicants to interview and fill classes. At many carriers, they are not succeeding and minimums have dropped to bare commercial, instrument and multi engine certificates.
Many flight instructors, as soon as they reach these qualifications are applying to the regionals and leaving large flying schools with a shortage of qualified instructors.
As I have mentioned in previous posts in this forum, the reason this is happening is the same as the reasons in Australia, that is, the pay and terms and conditions are terrible, as is the quality of pilot life.
Despite the fact that management could simply raise the price of a ticket from $1-$3, and then be able to afford to pay an extra 30 odd thousand dollars per year to every crew member, none of them have done so, nor are they likely to. I would be quite happy to see hundreds of airliners parked and management can go down to the local flying schools and see if they can even find an instructor to book a lesson with and begin learning to fly themselves. They all appear to think that it is sooo easy that monkeys can do it and prepared to pay pilots as if they are.
Most first and second year F. O.'s earn from 1500 to less than $2000 per month. Do not bother about converting the currencies as a dollar here buys the same if not less than a dollar in Australia. That is $1500 here is the same as earning $1500 in Australia, as far as what it will purchase. Can anybody live on $1500 per month in any major Australian city, or even most country towns ???.
The following two links are two sites that have details about the airlines and up-to-date copies of their pay scales. One of them has a pay scale calculator that allows you to enter the amount per hour, and the number of min guaranteed hours per month in order to see what the total monthly salary is.
What you must remember when looking at these payscales, is that this is for actual stick time only. The actual number of duty hours that most pilots will work is in access of 160 hours per month, so divide that number into the monthly salary to see what the actual hourly rate is. In most cases, it will be around $10 an hour, which is only a dollar an hour more than minimum wage in many places.
Whilst on different forums, some regional pilots claim to learn more than the minimums they have to pick up a lot of additional flying above the minimum guaranteed in order to do so, and even then, the pay is still usually pretty poor compared to what pilots who fly much smaller equipment can earn.
For those of you are unfamiliar, under part 121 of the regulations which govern scheduled air carriers, pilots can be rostered for a 16 hour duty day and are required to only get a minimum eight hours rest, from when they walk into the airport office to report until they sign off. There are certain adjustments required for exceeding these figures, as there are in the CAO's regarding Australian flight and duty time.
Needless to say, while we're on the point, serious fatigue issues are no doubt widespread throughout the industry, even under part 135, which governs air taxis ie charter operators, pilots are limited to a 14 hour duty day. Obviously, the FAA think scheduled airline passengers can be flown by pilots who are even more fatigued than those flying charter passengers around. Very freaking nice, great thinking, until an accident occurs that is.
Here are the links--
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines.html
http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/
Any Virgin Blue and Jet Star pilots, who may be wondering what Southwest and other major airline pilots make here can also refer to the above links to compare.
As far as long airline jobs go, for the reasons I mentioned above, there is a shortage of flight instructors at many schools. Many freight companies also have a constant demand for pilots to fly either piston or small turboprop aircraft that these jobs are also not well paid, considering the work involved, and often back of the clock operations.
There are positions for business jet captains advertised every day on the Internet and a lesser number for FO's, flying corporate and/or charter operations. Some of these jobs, especially for corporate operators can pay extremely well and have a great quality of life depending on the company, on the other hand, many of these positions with charter operators pay very poorly and well below what should be a correct industry standard level given the aeroplane type and almost 24/7 on-call status.
The problem for myself, and most other pilots, is that in order to obtain any of these positions, or indeed even send in a resume, you must already have a type rating (endorsement) on the aeroplane as well as time on type which of course you can never obtain unless you have already had the job you are applying for. The old Catch-22. Many of these jobs also require at least 3000 to 5000 hours, as well as at least 500 to 1000 hours turbine time and anywhere from 50 to 500 hours jet time. Having attended school on the aeroplane within the last 12 months is also a commonly stipulated requirement.
To everyone who reads this, I am sorry I do not have better news concerning the state of the industry here but I have tried to paint an accurate picture and not blow smoke where the sun does not shine, especially in case anybody reading this has the opportunity to come here and needs some accurate information before doing so.
If this raises any more questions, or anybody has more questions, please feel free to post them here and ask and I will do my best to answer them. To all of you who are lucky enough to be working right now, fly safe.
The regional airlines are expanding, as they are taking over some of the mainline flying from the legacy carriers. Half the major/legacy carriers are still in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and are not hiring crews. There are still approximately 7000 to 8000 pilots still on furlough from these airlines from 9/11.
The other half of these carriers have emerged from Chapter 11 and re calling furloughed pilots as well as hiring new pilots off the street.
There is no shortage of applicants and well qualified ones at that who are applying to the major carriers. Most of these pilots come from either the military, or from the regional airlines where they have gained FAR Part 121 airline experience which is pretty much a necessity to get hired at a major.
During this recall, there have been a large number of pilots who have not accepted recall to their previous companies. For those of you who are unfamiliar with this situation, I'll briefly explain. After 9/11, the airline's furloughed over 12,000 pilots, this means people are basically laid off in reverse seniority order and when the airline starts hiring again when times get better they recall in seniority order. All pilots who were furloughed must be offered recall before they can start to select new hires from off the street.
As many of you have no doubt read in Australian magazines, employees at the majors, have taken 30 to 50% pay cuts as well as losing all of their pensions and many other benefits since 9/11.
The regional airlines are in the same position as the regionals in Australia, they are dropping minimums to next to nothing, now less than 500 hours total and 50 hours multi at many carriers. In order to try and get sufficient applicants to interview and fill classes. At many carriers, they are not succeeding and minimums have dropped to bare commercial, instrument and multi engine certificates.
Many flight instructors, as soon as they reach these qualifications are applying to the regionals and leaving large flying schools with a shortage of qualified instructors.
As I have mentioned in previous posts in this forum, the reason this is happening is the same as the reasons in Australia, that is, the pay and terms and conditions are terrible, as is the quality of pilot life.
Despite the fact that management could simply raise the price of a ticket from $1-$3, and then be able to afford to pay an extra 30 odd thousand dollars per year to every crew member, none of them have done so, nor are they likely to. I would be quite happy to see hundreds of airliners parked and management can go down to the local flying schools and see if they can even find an instructor to book a lesson with and begin learning to fly themselves. They all appear to think that it is sooo easy that monkeys can do it and prepared to pay pilots as if they are.
Most first and second year F. O.'s earn from 1500 to less than $2000 per month. Do not bother about converting the currencies as a dollar here buys the same if not less than a dollar in Australia. That is $1500 here is the same as earning $1500 in Australia, as far as what it will purchase. Can anybody live on $1500 per month in any major Australian city, or even most country towns ???.
The following two links are two sites that have details about the airlines and up-to-date copies of their pay scales. One of them has a pay scale calculator that allows you to enter the amount per hour, and the number of min guaranteed hours per month in order to see what the total monthly salary is.
What you must remember when looking at these payscales, is that this is for actual stick time only. The actual number of duty hours that most pilots will work is in access of 160 hours per month, so divide that number into the monthly salary to see what the actual hourly rate is. In most cases, it will be around $10 an hour, which is only a dollar an hour more than minimum wage in many places.
Whilst on different forums, some regional pilots claim to learn more than the minimums they have to pick up a lot of additional flying above the minimum guaranteed in order to do so, and even then, the pay is still usually pretty poor compared to what pilots who fly much smaller equipment can earn.
For those of you are unfamiliar, under part 121 of the regulations which govern scheduled air carriers, pilots can be rostered for a 16 hour duty day and are required to only get a minimum eight hours rest, from when they walk into the airport office to report until they sign off. There are certain adjustments required for exceeding these figures, as there are in the CAO's regarding Australian flight and duty time.
Needless to say, while we're on the point, serious fatigue issues are no doubt widespread throughout the industry, even under part 135, which governs air taxis ie charter operators, pilots are limited to a 14 hour duty day. Obviously, the FAA think scheduled airline passengers can be flown by pilots who are even more fatigued than those flying charter passengers around. Very freaking nice, great thinking, until an accident occurs that is.
Here are the links--
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines.html
http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/
Any Virgin Blue and Jet Star pilots, who may be wondering what Southwest and other major airline pilots make here can also refer to the above links to compare.
As far as long airline jobs go, for the reasons I mentioned above, there is a shortage of flight instructors at many schools. Many freight companies also have a constant demand for pilots to fly either piston or small turboprop aircraft that these jobs are also not well paid, considering the work involved, and often back of the clock operations.
There are positions for business jet captains advertised every day on the Internet and a lesser number for FO's, flying corporate and/or charter operations. Some of these jobs, especially for corporate operators can pay extremely well and have a great quality of life depending on the company, on the other hand, many of these positions with charter operators pay very poorly and well below what should be a correct industry standard level given the aeroplane type and almost 24/7 on-call status.
The problem for myself, and most other pilots, is that in order to obtain any of these positions, or indeed even send in a resume, you must already have a type rating (endorsement) on the aeroplane as well as time on type which of course you can never obtain unless you have already had the job you are applying for. The old Catch-22. Many of these jobs also require at least 3000 to 5000 hours, as well as at least 500 to 1000 hours turbine time and anywhere from 50 to 500 hours jet time. Having attended school on the aeroplane within the last 12 months is also a commonly stipulated requirement.
To everyone who reads this, I am sorry I do not have better news concerning the state of the industry here but I have tried to paint an accurate picture and not blow smoke where the sun does not shine, especially in case anybody reading this has the opportunity to come here and needs some accurate information before doing so.
If this raises any more questions, or anybody has more questions, please feel free to post them here and ask and I will do my best to answer them. To all of you who are lucky enough to be working right now, fly safe.
Last edited by aussie027; 5th Mar 2008 at 17:27.
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027,
Thanks for you pesistance with the software and reply! Very informative indeed.
Pretty much as i expected, it sounds as though its about the same as when i last talked to an American collegue.
Are the flying schools still full of young wanabee jet pilots or has the penny dropped over there like it has here?
I'm coming across more and more people that once upon a time would have but now are too wise and well informed to get involved.
Thanks again.
Thanks for you pesistance with the software and reply! Very informative indeed.
Pretty much as i expected, it sounds as though its about the same as when i last talked to an American collegue.
Are the flying schools still full of young wanabee jet pilots or has the penny dropped over there like it has here?
I'm coming across more and more people that once upon a time would have but now are too wise and well informed to get involved.
Thanks again.
Thread Starter
One of the nationwide schools, ATP, ( ie ATP as in ATPL) is according to one of their instructors in my city very busy with new students.
So yeah I guess there are still plenty of wannabes out there, obviously in need of a good career counselling.
So yeah I guess there are still plenty of wannabes out there, obviously in need of a good career counselling.
aussie027,
Thanks for the post. Please give a bit more detail on the following statement you made:
I did some rough calculations which suggested that a rise of $1 - $3 wasn't sufficient for a $30K salary rise for all pilots.
Thanks for the post. Please give a bit more detail on the following statement you made:
... that management could simply raise the price of a ticket from $1-$3, and then be able to afford to pay an extra 30 odd thousand dollars per year to every crew member ...
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Thanks for the info 027 but I think almost no one is thinkin to go to the states from OZ at the moment apart for endorsements maybe, theres heaps more money to be made elsehere!! Damn I made $4000 a month in GA 10 years ago so that pretty much sums it up! See ya
Thread Starter
Aircraft,
Let me see if I can explain the mathematics here, I am going to use the method I read on another forum here in the States that somebody used.
Let us assume a company operates only 50 seat regional jet's, if we increase the salary of a captain and FO by a total of $50,000 per year, 30,000 for the FO and 20,000 for the captain, this is just to keep the math simple. Now let us assume the average length of a trip for the company is one hour, and the flight crew, that is every pilot in the company works an average of only 500 hours per year, this is very low I know.
That means $50,000 per crew divided by 500 hours flown equals $100 per hour of flight time, that is now divided by 50 passengers on the jet giving a ticket price rise of two dollars to cover that extra cost.
Now, if the company is really busy, and the average pilot flies a thousand hours per year, which is allowed here under the FARs, then for an average sector length of one hour then we get $50 per hour extra cost, which is one dollar per seat. As you can see from this rather high average annual flight time of 1000 hours or the more extreme low time of 500 hours the average cost of a ticket increase is $1-$2 based on the assumptions we have made.
When we factor in much more realistic real-world conditions, such as possibly a mix of 50 to 90 seat regional jets in the fleet and maybe some 30 to 35 seat turboprops, an average sector length of say 1 1/2 to 2 hours, and maybe 900 hours per year per pilot, plus an average load factor of 80% per flight etc, the price increase will still be in the region of $1-$3 approximately.
I cannot find fault with this basic reasoning. This assumes of course that nothing else changes as far as current salaries go, and that we are simply increasing the existing salary level at each year of service by the above amounts. Since 9/11 all the airlines have done massive restructuring and cost reductions in order to regain profitability, so we're not changing anything else in the way the company is run or the costs involved. We are simply talking about increasing a flight crews salary in this case by a specified amount and dividing that cost up over their annual average hours flown and the average length of a flight.
Obviously, a computer program could analyse all the company's operations and staff utilisation levels, number of aircraft in the fleet and their seating capacities, speeds etc, as well as average flight times per sector for each type, average load factors per flight, etc, and come up with an exact figure for each Fleet type, that would be the increase in ticket price required to cover such an increase in salary.
I don't have a business degree or a degree in economics, but as I said before can see no flaw in this general reasoning in determining this cost recovery model.
If anybody who worked for a regional airline in Australia or here in the States would suggest this to their management staff and see what the reaction was, I am sure it would involve a lot of kicking and screaming and reasons why it would never work and could not possibly be done. Anybody would think it was going to come out of their pockets!!
Another simple reality of business that always seems to escape airline managements around the world, is the fact that nothing is coming out of their pockets, or the company pockets,…… when there is a cost increase etc, this is a cost of doing business and is paid for by the customer/passengers as these costs are passed on, or are at least supposed to be!!!
Doesn't this happen in any other kind of business?? A business passes it's rising cost on to its customers, it has to otherwise it's profit margin will reduce or be nonexistent, and then the company goes out of business. Seems like basic business sense to me, but hey, what the hell do I know, I'm not handicapped. by actually having a degree in business/ economics. (Apologies here to people who have those degrees and actually know how to use them and what they are doing)
Every airline passenger in the world since 9/11 has had to pay much larger increases in ticket prices to cover increased security fees, fuel surcharges govt fees, etc, than the $1-$2 we had discussed above, or hell let us say a whole $5 increase. How many regular passengers who fly a certain route over and over again would even blink at a five dollar ticket increase, let alone a two dollar increase, which they would just assume was to cover an increase in security fees or some other government imposed fee??.
One article I read recently suggested that airfares are now a simple commodity and are basically purchased by the consumer purely on the basis of cost in most cases. Even if this is true, or other factors being equal, does $1-$2 difference on a ticket price of several hundred or more dollars necessarily swing people from one carrier to another?? Of course, if one company goes and raises their ticket prices to cover such a cost increase than all the others have to do so as well, or of course, their pricing will not be competitive. I understand this, but my point is, we're not talking about a 50 or $100 ticket price increase, which is obviously substantial and will swing people to the opposition, we are talking about $1-$3. Even if it were 5 or $10 this is still small compared to all the fees and charges included in or added to the "fare" to get the actual final ticket price.
If anybody can see a major flaw in this logic as far as how to calculate a ticket price increase to cover a lump sum cost increase per crew, without changing anything else in the company's cost structure then please let me know.
Let me see if I can explain the mathematics here, I am going to use the method I read on another forum here in the States that somebody used.
Let us assume a company operates only 50 seat regional jet's, if we increase the salary of a captain and FO by a total of $50,000 per year, 30,000 for the FO and 20,000 for the captain, this is just to keep the math simple. Now let us assume the average length of a trip for the company is one hour, and the flight crew, that is every pilot in the company works an average of only 500 hours per year, this is very low I know.
That means $50,000 per crew divided by 500 hours flown equals $100 per hour of flight time, that is now divided by 50 passengers on the jet giving a ticket price rise of two dollars to cover that extra cost.
Now, if the company is really busy, and the average pilot flies a thousand hours per year, which is allowed here under the FARs, then for an average sector length of one hour then we get $50 per hour extra cost, which is one dollar per seat. As you can see from this rather high average annual flight time of 1000 hours or the more extreme low time of 500 hours the average cost of a ticket increase is $1-$2 based on the assumptions we have made.
When we factor in much more realistic real-world conditions, such as possibly a mix of 50 to 90 seat regional jets in the fleet and maybe some 30 to 35 seat turboprops, an average sector length of say 1 1/2 to 2 hours, and maybe 900 hours per year per pilot, plus an average load factor of 80% per flight etc, the price increase will still be in the region of $1-$3 approximately.
I cannot find fault with this basic reasoning. This assumes of course that nothing else changes as far as current salaries go, and that we are simply increasing the existing salary level at each year of service by the above amounts. Since 9/11 all the airlines have done massive restructuring and cost reductions in order to regain profitability, so we're not changing anything else in the way the company is run or the costs involved. We are simply talking about increasing a flight crews salary in this case by a specified amount and dividing that cost up over their annual average hours flown and the average length of a flight.
Obviously, a computer program could analyse all the company's operations and staff utilisation levels, number of aircraft in the fleet and their seating capacities, speeds etc, as well as average flight times per sector for each type, average load factors per flight, etc, and come up with an exact figure for each Fleet type, that would be the increase in ticket price required to cover such an increase in salary.
I don't have a business degree or a degree in economics, but as I said before can see no flaw in this general reasoning in determining this cost recovery model.
If anybody who worked for a regional airline in Australia or here in the States would suggest this to their management staff and see what the reaction was, I am sure it would involve a lot of kicking and screaming and reasons why it would never work and could not possibly be done. Anybody would think it was going to come out of their pockets!!
Another simple reality of business that always seems to escape airline managements around the world, is the fact that nothing is coming out of their pockets, or the company pockets,…… when there is a cost increase etc, this is a cost of doing business and is paid for by the customer/passengers as these costs are passed on, or are at least supposed to be!!!
Doesn't this happen in any other kind of business?? A business passes it's rising cost on to its customers, it has to otherwise it's profit margin will reduce or be nonexistent, and then the company goes out of business. Seems like basic business sense to me, but hey, what the hell do I know, I'm not handicapped. by actually having a degree in business/ economics. (Apologies here to people who have those degrees and actually know how to use them and what they are doing)
Every airline passenger in the world since 9/11 has had to pay much larger increases in ticket prices to cover increased security fees, fuel surcharges govt fees, etc, than the $1-$2 we had discussed above, or hell let us say a whole $5 increase. How many regular passengers who fly a certain route over and over again would even blink at a five dollar ticket increase, let alone a two dollar increase, which they would just assume was to cover an increase in security fees or some other government imposed fee??.
One article I read recently suggested that airfares are now a simple commodity and are basically purchased by the consumer purely on the basis of cost in most cases. Even if this is true, or other factors being equal, does $1-$2 difference on a ticket price of several hundred or more dollars necessarily swing people from one carrier to another?? Of course, if one company goes and raises their ticket prices to cover such a cost increase than all the others have to do so as well, or of course, their pricing will not be competitive. I understand this, but my point is, we're not talking about a 50 or $100 ticket price increase, which is obviously substantial and will swing people to the opposition, we are talking about $1-$3. Even if it were 5 or $10 this is still small compared to all the fees and charges included in or added to the "fare" to get the actual final ticket price.
If anybody can see a major flaw in this logic as far as how to calculate a ticket price increase to cover a lump sum cost increase per crew, without changing anything else in the company's cost structure then please let me know.
Aussie027,
I'm part way through an aviation business management degree and cannot see anything wrong with your calculations.
An airline could probably use the fact that they pay their pilots better than other airlines in a clever marketing campaign pointing out that other airlines pay peanuts etc. etc. This would more than outweigh the few extra dollars per ticket, one would think.
I'm part way through an aviation business management degree and cannot see anything wrong with your calculations.
An airline could probably use the fact that they pay their pilots better than other airlines in a clever marketing campaign pointing out that other airlines pay peanuts etc. etc. This would more than outweigh the few extra dollars per ticket, one would think.
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Not to dispute Aussie027 but just to correct a couple things:
In fact, there are currently no major carriers in bankruptcy.
None of the carriers that went to bankruptcy (NWA, USAir, UAL, DAL) are yet hiring off the street, they are still recalling furloughee's.
They have lost most their pensions, but the pension benefit guarantee will pay some. Also, even with the 30-50% pay cut, pay is about equal to Qantas pay. NWA didn't lose their pension in Chapter 11.
This is true, but the way it works is when you are offered recall you can go on bypass. You maintain your seniority and can come back anytime you want. The company offers recall in seniority order. Once they get to the last guy, they go in reverse seniority and offer recall to those who bypassed. At this point you have to either accept recall or resign. So it is unclear how many will come back after the 2nd recall. In UAL's case, abou 1/3 are accepting and 2/3's are either resigning or going on some kind of leave.
It isn't that simple. Carriers often try to raise ticket prices, simply to have to reduce them when others don't match. There is a point that they lose market share when they raise the ticket. Also, with the cumulative losses in the billions they need to raise the prices just to make a profit. I am sure they won't just give it to the pilots.
Not true, your dollars go a lot further on day to day living in America. First, the tax system in Australia eats it very quickly. Also, because you can fly for free on any airline's jumpseat in America, commuting is much more feasible and likely. This way, you can live in a lower cost area and commute to work. You don't need to buy a house in Los Angeles or New York, which are comparable in price to Sydney. Also, there are a lot more medium sized cities in the U.S. where the cost of living is great. I left the U.S. after furlough from United where I had lived in Wisconsin and flew out of Chicago (2 hour drive). I had a 6 bedroom house, 4 car garage, 10 acres and I sold it for $189,000. When I got to Australia I couldn't touch a house in Sydney and ended up paying $450,000 (The Sunshine Coast) for a 600m2 block of land with a 4 bedroom house 1/3 the size of my Wisconsin house. The car I sold in America sold for $22,000 the same car in Australia cost $72,000. Health care is cheaper here though.
Anyway, although jobs are a bit hard to come by now, the industry is very cyclic, especially in the U.S. and times will be better again. When I got hired at United, they hired over 4000 pilots in 3 years and in my 2nd year I was an international B-767 f/o making about $135,000 per year basic salary. B-747 Captains were on $300,000 per year. Don't let management convince you that times are different forever.
Half the major/legacy carriers are still in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection
The other half of these carriers have emerged from Chapter 11 and re calling furloughed pilots as well as hiring new pilots off the street.
have taken 30 to 50% pay cuts as well as losing all of their pensions and many other benefits since 9/11.
During this recall, there have been a large number of pilots who have not accepted recall to their previous companies
Despite the fact that management could simply raise the price of a ticket from $1-$3
Do not bother about converting the currencies as a dollar here buys the same if not less than a dollar in Australia.
Anyway, although jobs are a bit hard to come by now, the industry is very cyclic, especially in the U.S. and times will be better again. When I got hired at United, they hired over 4000 pilots in 3 years and in my 2nd year I was an international B-767 f/o making about $135,000 per year basic salary. B-747 Captains were on $300,000 per year. Don't let management convince you that times are different forever.
Thread Starter
UAL furlough,
Sorry for the inaccuracies regarding the state of the major airline situation.
Since that sphere of operations is totally outside my range of aspirations, I was not fully up-to-date obviously on the situation, and when writing the comment did not have time to go and research the specifics concerning each company. Obviously because of your situation, you are much better informed in that sphere than I am.
Quote:
Despite the fact that management could simply raise the price of a ticket from $1-$3
Just to expand on this point, yes, I am aware of that, I made the point in my comments concerning this problem. As I mentioned $1-$3 ticket price increase is not the same as increasing its 20, 50 or $100, and then when no one else does so, passengers go to your competition. As we are all aware, this is the problem that prevents the airline industry from ever making a real profit, even in the good times of more than a few percent.
In other words, the airline industry seems to be one of those industries, where they cannot pass on price increases to their customers or increase their prices, even by a few dollars to increase profits. Of course, what they do, as they have done around the world, is put surcharges for example for fuel and security fees onto what the basic price of a ticket is and pass on their costs that way. Usually when this has happened, of course, everybody has instituted these fees at the same time to remain competitive.
So, given this situation we are back to what I talked about before, where in order to maximise profits, after increasing efficiencies in operations etc, the only other way to cut costs is to basically screw the employees over by reducing their pay, benefits and conditions.
Due to consumer laws in both the US and Australia, of course, companies can't all get together and decide they need to increase their prices by a certain percentage, so they will do so at the same time, and then everybody is still “even” so to speak. Collusion and price-fixing is what they call it, and of course that is against consumer laws.
So you could almost say, it is like a bunch of children standing around the edge of a swimming pool and no one wants to be the first in the for fear that no one else will follow and they will be the only one who gets wet.
Quote:
Do not bother about converting the currencies as a dollar here buys the same if not less than a dollar in Australia.
As just a GA driver, who is now unemployed yet again after being laid off from the small company I worked for, and having been grossly underemployed for my entire “career”, and I shouldn't even really use that word to describe it, I have never even been able to even dream about the life situation you have been through, and that you describe above.
I was speaking more from my humble experience, concerning paying just day-to-day bills for basic goods and services, whilst living in a small rented one-bedroom apartment and struggling to survive and keep my sanity.
I am aware, the tax system in Australia is far worse than in the US although it has gotten far better in recent years than it was in the past, especially regarding tax rates for different income brackets, the bracket limits have increased substantially over the years. For example, I remember less than 10 years ago, when if you earned more than AUD $50,000, you were in the 50% tax bracket!!!!
Sorry for the inaccuracies regarding the state of the major airline situation.
Since that sphere of operations is totally outside my range of aspirations, I was not fully up-to-date obviously on the situation, and when writing the comment did not have time to go and research the specifics concerning each company. Obviously because of your situation, you are much better informed in that sphere than I am.
Quote:
Despite the fact that management could simply raise the price of a ticket from $1-$3
It isn't that simple. Carriers often try to raise ticket prices, simply to have to reduce them when others don't match. There is a point that they lose market share when they raise the ticket. Also, with the cumulative losses in the billions they need to raise the prices just to make a profit. I am sure they won't just give it to the pilots.
In other words, the airline industry seems to be one of those industries, where they cannot pass on price increases to their customers or increase their prices, even by a few dollars to increase profits. Of course, what they do, as they have done around the world, is put surcharges for example for fuel and security fees onto what the basic price of a ticket is and pass on their costs that way. Usually when this has happened, of course, everybody has instituted these fees at the same time to remain competitive.
So, given this situation we are back to what I talked about before, where in order to maximise profits, after increasing efficiencies in operations etc, the only other way to cut costs is to basically screw the employees over by reducing their pay, benefits and conditions.
Due to consumer laws in both the US and Australia, of course, companies can't all get together and decide they need to increase their prices by a certain percentage, so they will do so at the same time, and then everybody is still “even” so to speak. Collusion and price-fixing is what they call it, and of course that is against consumer laws.
So you could almost say, it is like a bunch of children standing around the edge of a swimming pool and no one wants to be the first in the for fear that no one else will follow and they will be the only one who gets wet.
Quote:
Do not bother about converting the currencies as a dollar here buys the same if not less than a dollar in Australia.
Not true, your dollars go a lot further on day to day living in America. First, the tax system in Australia eats it very quickly. Also, because you can fly for free on any airline's jumpseat in America, commuting is much more feasible and likely. This way, you can live in a lower cost area and commute to work. You don't need to buy a house in Los Angeles or New York, which are comparable in price to Sydney. Also, there are a lot more medium sized cities in the U.S. where the cost of living is great. I left the U.S. after furlough from United where I had lived in Wisconsin and flew out of Chicago (2 hour drive). I had a 6 bedroom house, 4 car garage, 10 acres and I sold it for $189,000. When I got to Australia I couldn't touch a house in Sydney and ended up paying $450,000 (The Sunshine Coast) for a 600m2 block of land with a 4 bedroom house 1/3 the size of my Wisconsin house. The car I sold in America sold for $22,000 the same car in Australia cost $72,000. Health care is cheaper here though.
Anyway, although jobs are a bit hard to come by now, the industry is very cyclic, especially in the U.S. and times will be better again. When I got hired at United, they hired over 4000 pilots in 3 years and in my 2nd year I was an international B-767 f/o making about $135,000 per year basic salary. B-747 Captains were on $300,000 per year.
Anyway, although jobs are a bit hard to come by now, the industry is very cyclic, especially in the U.S. and times will be better again. When I got hired at United, they hired over 4000 pilots in 3 years and in my 2nd year I was an international B-767 f/o making about $135,000 per year basic salary. B-747 Captains were on $300,000 per year.
I was speaking more from my humble experience, concerning paying just day-to-day bills for basic goods and services, whilst living in a small rented one-bedroom apartment and struggling to survive and keep my sanity.
I am aware, the tax system in Australia is far worse than in the US although it has gotten far better in recent years than it was in the past, especially regarding tax rates for different income brackets, the bracket limits have increased substantially over the years. For example, I remember less than 10 years ago, when if you earned more than AUD $50,000, you were in the 50% tax bracket!!!!
Be kind Pass a Frozo he did say he was doing a aviation degree, not a finance one 
However the option in the future looks like either raising airfares by a few dollars or parking your aircraft against the fence. I'm sure that is going to cost you a hellava lot more money than a airfare increase.
The other factor to consider here is that in the last 10 years real salaries have gone absolutely nowhere in aviation and the cost of training has doubled.
As said before, airline executives have absolutely no one else to blame for a pilot shortage other than themselves, when I started flying the supply of pilots was absolutely ridiculous, you needed 1000's of hours just to fly a chieftan. Regionals wouldn't take a resume unless you had 2000 hours+
To go from that to where we are today is a pretty sad state of affairs. If they had managed their pilot supply a bit better you wouldn't have the debacle that has now resulted.
However the option in the future looks like either raising airfares by a few dollars or parking your aircraft against the fence. I'm sure that is going to cost you a hellava lot more money than a airfare increase.
The other factor to consider here is that in the last 10 years real salaries have gone absolutely nowhere in aviation and the cost of training has doubled.
As said before, airline executives have absolutely no one else to blame for a pilot shortage other than themselves, when I started flying the supply of pilots was absolutely ridiculous, you needed 1000's of hours just to fly a chieftan. Regionals wouldn't take a resume unless you had 2000 hours+
To go from that to where we are today is a pretty sad state of affairs. If they had managed their pilot supply a bit better you wouldn't have the debacle that has now resulted.
