RAAF pilots leaving
" All ramblings guinness induced"
The more things change, the more they seem to stay the same. Big wheel keeps on turning...(CCR)
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True, but the thing about wheels is that they keep on turning. It will be interesting to see if the Melchetts seize upon this temporary phenomena and delay or even cancel the proposed pilot retention measures.
Some long term thinking required here, i.e. beyong the next promotion/posting.
Interesting times....................
Some long term thinking required here, i.e. beyong the next promotion/posting.
Interesting times....................
Í've got faith that Binny will try to see this one through. Unfortunately, I am also sure that this government will be trying to wrench the bucket of money back out of his hands.
Back to square one me thinks......
Back to square one me thinks......
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Rumour has it that the deal will be pay group 7 for pilots in non exec tours - remainder to be made up of an allowance to make up non-reduction portion, the latter non-superanuable. Effectively a pay cut. Further retention bonus as promised in Feb - nil.
Rumour is also that the WGCDR currently working on the sustainability project is throwing her hands up as there is nowhere to go with it. Any promises made are now no longer valid.
Guess we should all have got out last year........... Hold the faith, pah.
Rumour is also that the WGCDR currently working on the sustainability project is throwing her hands up as there is nowhere to go with it. Any promises made are now no longer valid.
Guess we should all have got out last year........... Hold the faith, pah.
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I can't see things changing for the better for RAAF pilots. Didn't Chairman Rudd cut all services budgets by 10 percent? No doubt any measure will have to be revenue neutral. The question is that if you think RAAF pilots (or some of them) will get more then who will lose the money to pay for it.Moral of story: if given the chance right now EJECT, EJECT, EJECT.
You should have jumped shipped 6 to 12 months ago and rocked up for pocket money ever couple of weeks as a reservist.
You should have jumped shipped 6 to 12 months ago and rocked up for pocket money ever couple of weeks as a reservist.
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The Rudd er-less ship
I personally thought that the whole ASP (whatever it's called) was a good thing. Only should have been done from the beginning of time!! like any big multi-billion corporation.
but with Rudd at the helm, who knows where it will end up...
but with Rudd at the helm, who knows where it will end up...
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We received a brief from the ASP team recently, where they said 'we are going to give you more control over your career..you don't have to be mucked around anymore'.
Just two days later DP rang one of my colleagues and told him there was a short notice, 'must be filled' posting on the cards for the new year. It is now Dec 13...thanks for all the heads up.
This stuff is always going to happen, regardless of good intentions. It has already happened to me. It is possible to keep some people very happy, but you're going to have to screw someone else over to do it.
The longer you stay in, the more chance you have of being:
"That one person who we need to fill this posting.."
If you are smart you need to consider other career options well before you reach end of ROSO, because unless you want to be CAF, you will eventually be used as a gopher doing a staff job in which you have no expertise, in an undesirable location where you live in a sh...t married quarter and your wife and kids are miserable, because they have no friends and they're going to have to repeat the same miserable process of moving in two year's time....
Just two days later DP rang one of my colleagues and told him there was a short notice, 'must be filled' posting on the cards for the new year. It is now Dec 13...thanks for all the heads up.
This stuff is always going to happen, regardless of good intentions. It has already happened to me. It is possible to keep some people very happy, but you're going to have to screw someone else over to do it.
The longer you stay in, the more chance you have of being:
"That one person who we need to fill this posting.."
If you are smart you need to consider other career options well before you reach end of ROSO, because unless you want to be CAF, you will eventually be used as a gopher doing a staff job in which you have no expertise, in an undesirable location where you live in a sh...t married quarter and your wife and kids are miserable, because they have no friends and they're going to have to repeat the same miserable process of moving in two year's time....
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A very similar thing happened to a collegue at my unit. He was told he was going to be posted to a project job for which he has absolutely no relevant experience or interest. When asked where he would go after that job he was told that there would be no guarantees he would return to a flying job.
Once again my refusal to accept promotion beyond FLTLT has been validated!
The ASP team briefed our unit that around mid-2009 RAAF aircrew would be offered the choice to remain flying or go to a "career" stream. However their take on this is that the proportion of flying to career streams would be 20/80, i.e. they only want to accept 20% to stay on as "permanent pilots".
Absolutely flabbergasted!! They just don't bl**dy get it
Once again my refusal to accept promotion beyond FLTLT has been validated!
The ASP team briefed our unit that around mid-2009 RAAF aircrew would be offered the choice to remain flying or go to a "career" stream. However their take on this is that the proportion of flying to career streams would be 20/80, i.e. they only want to accept 20% to stay on as "permanent pilots".
Absolutely flabbergasted!! They just don't bl**dy get it
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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I was all for joining up and being a career pilot back in the days when their attrition rate was a lot lower. I was told pretty much the same thing back then.
The flying part of being in the Airforce was a pretty small part of the job, and to remain in as a career involved not enough flying to remain current.
I also looked at it a few years ago when they were begging for pilots....... was told nothing had changed.
Its a shame really, as I would have been quite comfortable driving a hurky around for a career....... even later in life.
The flying part of being in the Airforce was a pretty small part of the job, and to remain in as a career involved not enough flying to remain current.
I also looked at it a few years ago when they were begging for pilots....... was told nothing had changed.
Its a shame really, as I would have been quite comfortable driving a hurky around for a career....... even later in life.
The ASP people say that there will be no more irrelevant postings for aircrew. I'm not sure where the magic pudding is that will provide all the extra people to fill the crap jobs that still need filling.
ASP sounds to me to be very much like a "vision statement" - this is the organisation's ambition, and they can therefore say that it's just an isolated case each time you get the inevitable shaft.
What can they do to fix it? Let the upper echelons continue to micromanage, and cut out the 5 layers of management in between that they bypass every time they do. That would both avoid confusion and save a hell of a lot of rubbish jobs while they're at it.
ASP sounds to me to be very much like a "vision statement" - this is the organisation's ambition, and they can therefore say that it's just an isolated case each time you get the inevitable shaft.
What can they do to fix it? Let the upper echelons continue to micromanage, and cut out the 5 layers of management in between that they bypass every time they do. That would both avoid confusion and save a hell of a lot of rubbish jobs while they're at it.
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ASP is a complete Pineapple. Someone asked a question of the WGCDR giving the brief recently and he admitted that most people in the room would have no motivation to sign onto the new scheme.
Here is why:
As a FLTLT they rip you from Pay group 10 to pay group 6. That means that with the stroke of a pen you could be signing away around $100,000 from your superannuation.
Secondly he admitted that the new remuneration scheme will SAVE the government $9 million a year. The scheme to retain aircrew involves paying them less over the term of the career.
Thirdly, he stated that the benefit of the project would be realised in 10-20 years. i.e. The benefit comes about with new people forced onto the scheme.
Given that you sign away around $100k from your super and lose around $4,500 a year from your super on the lower paygroup (employer benefit) the only people who would agree to sign up (and agree to never go to Pay Group 10 until GList) would be the retarded.
Absolute pineapple and a waste of time.
The "Specialist Aircrew Scheme" is a complete "smoke and mirrors" job. It means a max of 20% of the guys at the SQN can be involved. So lets assume the scheme is offered next year. The RAAF gives 20% of the guys the jobs. End result? If they don't resign (that's the goal of the scheme) then no-one else can join it until they reach compulsory retirement age! Excellent, no spec aircrew jobs will free up for the next 20-30 years time.
If it wasn't for the fact these geniuses have worked out how to "retain" pilots and save the government $9 million a year I would say the project itself cost Defence more than it will benefit defence.
Most intelligent people realised this would happen. The criminal act by the project team was to hold "workshops" where they say "everything is on the table". The end result: We'll raid your super to try convince you we are paying you more". Remember, Defence NEVER makes you sign for a pay rise. They make you sign when they will make you worse off due to an Industrial Relations requirement. You sign - you lose. They'll try lure you over with this new component that is variable year to year. Offer a $10,000 increase next year to sign on - it disappears the year after.
To quote one of my full-time mates after the brief:
"Eject, Eject, Eject"
P.S. I heard around the traps one of the guys (from memory ALG?) told his CO he was considering his options outside and they removed him from an upgrade. Best to keep your cards close to your chest. Not sure the effect on reservist pay? Anyone.
It would appear your rumour is spot on the money!!! Total failure of expectation management. Airline Load factors increase 7% over the past twelve months (on radio today) - interesting to see what happens in late 2009 with airline recruitment.
Here is why:
As a FLTLT they rip you from Pay group 10 to pay group 6. That means that with the stroke of a pen you could be signing away around $100,000 from your superannuation.
Secondly he admitted that the new remuneration scheme will SAVE the government $9 million a year. The scheme to retain aircrew involves paying them less over the term of the career.
Thirdly, he stated that the benefit of the project would be realised in 10-20 years. i.e. The benefit comes about with new people forced onto the scheme.
Given that you sign away around $100k from your super and lose around $4,500 a year from your super on the lower paygroup (employer benefit) the only people who would agree to sign up (and agree to never go to Pay Group 10 until GList) would be the retarded.
Absolute pineapple and a waste of time.
The "Specialist Aircrew Scheme" is a complete "smoke and mirrors" job. It means a max of 20% of the guys at the SQN can be involved. So lets assume the scheme is offered next year. The RAAF gives 20% of the guys the jobs. End result? If they don't resign (that's the goal of the scheme) then no-one else can join it until they reach compulsory retirement age! Excellent, no spec aircrew jobs will free up for the next 20-30 years time.
If it wasn't for the fact these geniuses have worked out how to "retain" pilots and save the government $9 million a year I would say the project itself cost Defence more than it will benefit defence.
Most intelligent people realised this would happen. The criminal act by the project team was to hold "workshops" where they say "everything is on the table". The end result: We'll raid your super to try convince you we are paying you more". Remember, Defence NEVER makes you sign for a pay rise. They make you sign when they will make you worse off due to an Industrial Relations requirement. You sign - you lose. They'll try lure you over with this new component that is variable year to year. Offer a $10,000 increase next year to sign on - it disappears the year after.
To quote one of my full-time mates after the brief:
"Eject, Eject, Eject"
P.S. I heard around the traps one of the guys (from memory ALG?) told his CO he was considering his options outside and they removed him from an upgrade. Best to keep your cards close to your chest. Not sure the effect on reservist pay? Anyone.
Originally Posted by Marguerita
Rumour is also that the WGCDR currently working on the sustainability project is throwing her hands up as there is nowhere to go with it. Any promises made are now no longer valid.
Last edited by ElPerro; 16th Dec 2008 at 11:23.
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Remember in the ASP brief they were very guarded about the actual figures for the new pay scheme? Well, that's because you would quickly realise you will be no better off if you sign on to this 'career officer stream'. Yes, you might have a nice little 'bonus pay' one year, but then it all goes away because of 'market forecasting'. If this all sounds like smoke and mirrors it is! It has not been designed to give experienced guys more money, but to retain those people who have not even joined yet. The system has also been designed to save the government money. While they may need to pay temporary bonuses to the future crowd, they won't have to pay as much super. What a win for the government!
Any officer aircrew already in the RAAF would be totally mad to sign on to the new scheme, because they will move to pay group 10 regardless of what happens. If you stay as a FLTLT or SQNLDR in the new scheme you don't go any higher than PG8, and all of a sudden your super is starting to look much sicker.
It was all too good to be true. If you are a supervisor, it is essential you tell your junior aircrew not to sign on to the new system. The more people who are duped by the prospect of short term bonuses, then the more money the government will save, and the less super your bograts will get.
The specialist aircrew scheme also seems to be a scorpion with plenty of stings in the tail. You would need to be very careful before signing up for this, because once you're in, you can't get out. If you are a QFI at SRG or ALG then could you really handle another 20 years in the Simulator as a FLTLT? Eventually you become stale and nobody listens to you.
Any officer aircrew already in the RAAF would be totally mad to sign on to the new scheme, because they will move to pay group 10 regardless of what happens. If you stay as a FLTLT or SQNLDR in the new scheme you don't go any higher than PG8, and all of a sudden your super is starting to look much sicker.
It was all too good to be true. If you are a supervisor, it is essential you tell your junior aircrew not to sign on to the new system. The more people who are duped by the prospect of short term bonuses, then the more money the government will save, and the less super your bograts will get.
The specialist aircrew scheme also seems to be a scorpion with plenty of stings in the tail. You would need to be very careful before signing up for this, because once you're in, you can't get out. If you are a QFI at SRG or ALG then could you really handle another 20 years in the Simulator as a FLTLT? Eventually you become stale and nobody listens to you.
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Of course the other thing that might happen is that those wanting to go airlines go spec aircrew, fly straight for 4 - 5 years to build hours and leave. Therefore doing nothing for the retention of experience.
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Having not left long ago, I have watched this thread pretty intently, looking for a reason to not leave/return. The formula is becoming pretty simple for blokes who want to fly long term - the diversity of military flying and squadron life vs POTENTIAL (economy and industry trends considered) extra pay minus the predictability of airline flying. $100000 p.a. on PG6 vs Airlines? I think you could say, given historical trends, the RAAF won't ever change its personnel management system so it is becoming a simple question. A very personal question which can only be answered by individuals. There will never be a system which will please everybody.
(I would have rather stayed but the family limitations and bureacracy wore me down in the end for the record.)
(I would have rather stayed but the family limitations and bureacracy wore me down in the end for the record.)
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I beg to differ Toppie. They have changed things. They are going to reduce the pay packet. You're right. You can't make everyone happy - I know this bloke was pretty happy with the ASP brief (anyone wanna join him in signing on? (pretty sure I saw him at Edinburgh. From memory he was from 75SQN doing his AVMED refresher):
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Political gain
What I find interesting is that this whole scheme will cost Government less. Hence the reason all the 2 stars signed off on it....
as long as their promotion is assured, then who cares about the line drivers.
Vote with your feet...
as long as their promotion is assured, then who cares about the line drivers.
Vote with your feet...
