IFR broadcasts
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IFR broadcasts
G'day All,
I regularly fly VFR in some fairly busy airspace. I'm VFR because I have no choice. I have passengers in a single engine aircraft.
More than a few times lately I have heard the following...
Centre, ABC, approaching top of descent Y***.
ABC, Centre, no reported IFR traffic.
Centre, ABC, left 6000 on descent Y***.
I had been around the correct distance and altitude to be on their descent profile to Y***.
How about an all stations broadcast for us VFR types you may be about to run into. One particular occasion springs to mind, when I ended up joining crosswind at the same time as the offending aircraft was just touching down at the same airport. Too close for comfort in my opinion, and see and avoid doesn't really work as I have no rear vision mirrors fitted!!
I had heard the "left 6000" but had no idea of the direction the other aircraft was coming from. I called him twice for clarification but received no reply. They were obviously too busy to talk to a lowly VFR pilot. I eventually had to call centre for this information. This tied up the frequency for about 2 minutes.
So how about it guys, not everybody is IFR and known by centre to be in the area.
Regards, Two Dogs.
I regularly fly VFR in some fairly busy airspace. I'm VFR because I have no choice. I have passengers in a single engine aircraft.
More than a few times lately I have heard the following...
Centre, ABC, approaching top of descent Y***.
ABC, Centre, no reported IFR traffic.
Centre, ABC, left 6000 on descent Y***.
I had been around the correct distance and altitude to be on their descent profile to Y***.
How about an all stations broadcast for us VFR types you may be about to run into. One particular occasion springs to mind, when I ended up joining crosswind at the same time as the offending aircraft was just touching down at the same airport. Too close for comfort in my opinion, and see and avoid doesn't really work as I have no rear vision mirrors fitted!!
I had heard the "left 6000" but had no idea of the direction the other aircraft was coming from. I called him twice for clarification but received no reply. They were obviously too busy to talk to a lowly VFR pilot. I eventually had to call centre for this information. This tied up the frequency for about 2 minutes.
So how about it guys, not everybody is IFR and known by centre to be in the area.
Regards, Two Dogs.
When you live....
See and avoid - just ask dick!
But seriously, the majority of IFR flights will have 2 VHF comms and a descent commencing from 6000' will be pretty close to the arrival airport. If you're certain you're in a position that's on someones descent profile then it could be argued that you should be on the CTAF where comms with this guy could easily have been established and, more than likely, CTAF inbound calls will have a circuit direction.
In radar coverage, had you been a threat and squawking 1200 then 99.9% of the time, the other guy would have been given traffic information on "unknown VFR aircraft, relative bearing, showing xxxx feet unverified" - that he wasn't is a pretty good sign that you were no threat.
Not sure what you're getting at with the 'too close for comfort' landing concerns - either one of you didn't have the CTAF or, as required by NAS whatever stage we're at, the other a/c is discouraged from making any direct reply to your calls unless there is concern over a potential conflict. So either there was no percieved issue - or as would seem more likely, this guy didn't make any calls (base call) - an appeal for an 'all stations broadcast' won't fix this problem caused by poor procedures or some technical issue.
UTR.
But seriously, the majority of IFR flights will have 2 VHF comms and a descent commencing from 6000' will be pretty close to the arrival airport. If you're certain you're in a position that's on someones descent profile then it could be argued that you should be on the CTAF where comms with this guy could easily have been established and, more than likely, CTAF inbound calls will have a circuit direction.
In radar coverage, had you been a threat and squawking 1200 then 99.9% of the time, the other guy would have been given traffic information on "unknown VFR aircraft, relative bearing, showing xxxx feet unverified" - that he wasn't is a pretty good sign that you were no threat.
Not sure what you're getting at with the 'too close for comfort' landing concerns - either one of you didn't have the CTAF or, as required by NAS whatever stage we're at, the other a/c is discouraged from making any direct reply to your calls unless there is concern over a potential conflict. So either there was no percieved issue - or as would seem more likely, this guy didn't make any calls (base call) - an appeal for an 'all stations broadcast' won't fix this problem caused by poor procedures or some technical issue.
UTR.
I called him twice for clarification but received no reply. They were obviously too busy to talk to a lowly VFR pilot. I eventually had to call centre for this information
In radar coverage, had you been a threat and squawking 1200 then 99.9% of the time, the other guy would have been given traffic information on "unknown VFR aircraft, relative bearing, showing xxxx feet unverified" - that he wasn't is a pretty good sign that you were no threat
either one of you didn't have the CTAF or, as required by NAS whatever stage we're at, the other a/c is discouraged from making any direct reply to your calls unless there is concern over a potential conflict
PS - I am a VFR pilot.
What does concern me though is when an IFR pilot broadcasts on CTAF that he is making a NDB, GPS or whatever instrument approach (in visual conditions) to the same field I am approaching; without declaring his position relative to the airfield. I don't know where to look for him. I just declare my position, keep a lookout and keep on flying (with fingers crossed).
Sprucegoose
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According to the latest version of NAS it is also recommended that higher performance aircraft (usually IFR), will use a higher circuit altitiude, I know I do! I will also where possible/practical use a straight in approach to minimise conflicts with circuit traffic...
PS: If doing an instrument approach with VFR's in circuit, I will always try and let them know my intentions in VFR friendly terms, (no NDB outbound/inbound etc)...
PS: If doing an instrument approach with VFR's in circuit, I will always try and let them know my intentions in VFR friendly terms, (no NDB outbound/inbound etc)...
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Hi,
Just to clarify. I was well out of radar coverage. I have two VHF comms, one tuned to area and the other tuned to CTAF. Top of descent in a Shrike (offending aircraft on this occasion) would be well outside the CTAF boundary.
No calls were heard on CTAF prior to the "All stations Y***, ABC established 5 mile final, runway XX"
This is all academic, just make the required broadcasts and everyone is happy.
Regards,
Two Dogs
Just to clarify. I was well out of radar coverage. I have two VHF comms, one tuned to area and the other tuned to CTAF. Top of descent in a Shrike (offending aircraft on this occasion) would be well outside the CTAF boundary.
No calls were heard on CTAF prior to the "All stations Y***, ABC established 5 mile final, runway XX"
This is all academic, just make the required broadcasts and everyone is happy.
Regards,
Two Dogs
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2 dawgs
Maybe the pilot of the conficting aircraft reads and takes the aip reference ENR 60.1 (Jepp AU801 1.1) a bit too literally. I would have thought the reference to "Pilots of radio-equipped (remove VFR) aircraft...." etc would be more appropriate.
It would appear to me that if your concern about broadcasts (and it's irrelevant to being IFR or VFR), but the lack of, originates from the same offender - you've used a mix of singular and plural so it's a bit hard to tell, however it would seem to me to be not an IFR issue but crap airmanship possibly from the same operator. Many reasons for the comms breakdown could have occured and sometimes you'll never known unless you just wander over and calmly get to the bottom of your concern face to face - then insert the fuel drainer somewhere appropriate. I would be very suprised if there is a lowly "VFR attitude" existing towards from most professional IFR and VFR sharing your CTAF. Sometimes in busy and large area CTAFs (multiple airstrips) we all spend a lot of time sifting and filtering the barrage of 'war and peace' and 'how you going' stuff that one hears on your way down from upstairs at 3 to 4 nm/min.
Muffinman
Maybe the pilot of the conficting aircraft reads and takes the aip reference ENR 60.1 (Jepp AU801 1.1) a bit too literally. I would have thought the reference to "Pilots of radio-equipped (remove VFR) aircraft...." etc would be more appropriate.
It would appear to me that if your concern about broadcasts (and it's irrelevant to being IFR or VFR), but the lack of, originates from the same offender - you've used a mix of singular and plural so it's a bit hard to tell, however it would seem to me to be not an IFR issue but crap airmanship possibly from the same operator. Many reasons for the comms breakdown could have occured and sometimes you'll never known unless you just wander over and calmly get to the bottom of your concern face to face - then insert the fuel drainer somewhere appropriate. I would be very suprised if there is a lowly "VFR attitude" existing towards from most professional IFR and VFR sharing your CTAF. Sometimes in busy and large area CTAFs (multiple airstrips) we all spend a lot of time sifting and filtering the barrage of 'war and peace' and 'how you going' stuff that one hears on your way down from upstairs at 3 to 4 nm/min.
Muffinman
This is a problem with the individual pilot rather than IFR procedures in general.
There is a requirement to report present position and intentions to ATC approximately one minute prior to changing levels outside of controlled airspace. Your Shrike pilot didn't do this. He also doesn't seem to have made the required CTAF broadcasts.
If he was doing what he was supposed to, you would've got two radio calls with position and intentions, one to Centre, and one to the CTAF.
As far as approaches go, most pilots I hear state the approach procedure initially and then give plain language updates. E.g., "ABC overhead YXXX tracking outbound to the west on the NDB approach." Then, "ABC 8 miles west turning on to an 8 mile final runway 09."
It is a bit of an art saying everything you are meant to, while making it easily interpreted by VFR guys without being long winded.
Most are quite good I think, after all, we don't want to hit you anymore than you want to hit us.
There is a requirement to report present position and intentions to ATC approximately one minute prior to changing levels outside of controlled airspace. Your Shrike pilot didn't do this. He also doesn't seem to have made the required CTAF broadcasts.
If he was doing what he was supposed to, you would've got two radio calls with position and intentions, one to Centre, and one to the CTAF.
As far as approaches go, most pilots I hear state the approach procedure initially and then give plain language updates. E.g., "ABC overhead YXXX tracking outbound to the west on the NDB approach." Then, "ABC 8 miles west turning on to an 8 mile final runway 09."
It is a bit of an art saying everything you are meant to, while making it easily interpreted by VFR guys without being long winded.
Most are quite good I think, after all, we don't want to hit you anymore than you want to hit us.
Last edited by AerocatS2A; 16th May 2007 at 04:44. Reason: removed unintentional pun.
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the other a/c is discouraged from making any direct reply to your calls unless there is concern over a potential conflict
2 heads are better than one!!
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I agree AerocatS2A and here's the rub re what 2dogs has heard - and that is the 'request for traffic' being the only call made followed by 'leaving the level' and omitting the position and intentions.
Just an extra - this report is not just required in octa but in cta as well.
All gets a bit forgotten I think when ATS jump in first with a clearance to leave cta "no reported IFR traffic for arrival Yxxx" - "contact me on a new freq top of descent" etc etc (not intending to say the exact call - just setting the scene). The "left FL or Alt" call is usually the next call made.
Just a thought 2 dogs - your shrike may have made a broadcast on CTAF while you were calling(talking) at the same time to centre. I know I have been talking/responding to centre or traffic on centre and someone on CTAF has his knickers in a knot because I answer negative to his pained request regarding have I heard him calling me - and we are 30 miles apart.
Muff
Just an extra - this report is not just required in octa but in cta as well.
All gets a bit forgotten I think when ATS jump in first with a clearance to leave cta "no reported IFR traffic for arrival Yxxx" - "contact me on a new freq top of descent" etc etc (not intending to say the exact call - just setting the scene). The "left FL or Alt" call is usually the next call made.
Just a thought 2 dogs - your shrike may have made a broadcast on CTAF while you were calling(talking) at the same time to centre. I know I have been talking/responding to centre or traffic on centre and someone on CTAF has his knickers in a knot because I answer negative to his pained request regarding have I heard him calling me - and we are 30 miles apart.
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When I first saw this post, I believed that what was been referred to was the very common practice of the exchange between the aircraft and centre at the top of descent point and the traffic advice etc NOT including the place name of the location involved.
eg:
"Melbourne ABC top of descent in 2 minutes (or time)..."
"ABC no IFR traffic.."
(of course both the pilot and presumably centre know where the a/c is?!)
Then the pilot descends without any further calls on the area frequency and this leaves any poor VFR dude 500ft below the IFR traffic without a clue as to his whereabouts.
Regular IFR operators in class G will include the place name and I believe that Centre should include the location in the reply just to make sure, but often they do not (not in the book!!??)
Of course the operators with some situational awareness will be aware of the possibility of a VFR in conflict 500ft below etc and make an all stations bcst on the G frequency - that should then keep all happy. Unfortunately this does not always happen and many pilots still don't appreciate the need for such calls.
This all goes back to the point made some time back that there is no specific training in this area, you just have to pick it up (right & wrong) and sadly CASA who is responsible for standardisation does not do it's job in this area. It is always someone else's problem.
eg:
"Melbourne ABC top of descent in 2 minutes (or time)..."
"ABC no IFR traffic.."
(of course both the pilot and presumably centre know where the a/c is?!)
Then the pilot descends without any further calls on the area frequency and this leaves any poor VFR dude 500ft below the IFR traffic without a clue as to his whereabouts.
Regular IFR operators in class G will include the place name and I believe that Centre should include the location in the reply just to make sure, but often they do not (not in the book!!??)
Of course the operators with some situational awareness will be aware of the possibility of a VFR in conflict 500ft below etc and make an all stations bcst on the G frequency - that should then keep all happy. Unfortunately this does not always happen and many pilots still don't appreciate the need for such calls.
This all goes back to the point made some time back that there is no specific training in this area, you just have to pick it up (right & wrong) and sadly CASA who is responsible for standardisation does not do it's job in this area. It is always someone else's problem.
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I'm afraid I do a non AIP standard thing before TOD, and to save doing two calls:
Something like: "Brisbane Centre and all stations Bandywallop(or whatever location), ABC (or whatever callsign) maintaining 9000 feet (or whatever altitude/FL ) 30 miles (or whatever distance) to the southeast (or whatever quadrant/direction) request traffic for descent" and a modified repeat of this ("..ABC on descent through xxxx feet.." and without the traffic request) at any frequency change on descent if still a bit far from the CTAF. If not being passed on to the underlying G Area frequency from E, I would also make a call on the G frequency.
Never been chipped for it and a few ATC have (hopefully not in unrecognised sarcasm!!
) complimented the call.
Still not foolproof - the radio doesn't generate a forcefield against those not on frequency, or still yet to transition from an adjacent frequency , or with faulty gear...
Edited for layout
Something like: "Brisbane Centre and all stations Bandywallop(or whatever location), ABC (or whatever callsign) maintaining 9000 feet (or whatever altitude/FL ) 30 miles (or whatever distance) to the southeast (or whatever quadrant/direction) request traffic for descent" and a modified repeat of this ("..ABC on descent through xxxx feet.." and without the traffic request) at any frequency change on descent if still a bit far from the CTAF. If not being passed on to the underlying G Area frequency from E, I would also make a call on the G frequency.
Never been chipped for it and a few ATC have (hopefully not in unrecognised sarcasm!!
) complimented the call.Still not foolproof - the radio doesn't generate a forcefield against those not on frequency, or still yet to transition from an adjacent frequency , or with faulty gear...
Edited for layout
NoTinTams
I'm with you but do it slightly differently.
When a couple of minutes from TOD, I give the following call:
"Centre and all stations Bullamakanka, XXX, IFR Bonanza is 30 miles SW leaving Y thousand on descent inbound, estimating the circuit at ZZ"
Centre always reply with:
"XXX, there is no IFR traffic for your descent"
or they give me the traffic.
One call - seems to work OK.
Dr
I'm with you but do it slightly differently.
When a couple of minutes from TOD, I give the following call:
"Centre and all stations Bullamakanka, XXX, IFR Bonanza is 30 miles SW leaving Y thousand on descent inbound, estimating the circuit at ZZ"
Centre always reply with:
"XXX, there is no IFR traffic for your descent"
or they give me the traffic.
One call - seems to work OK.
Dr
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Wow Deevee good to see you - and welcome -didn't think you'd have the time to swing by this thread - thought you'd be out of paf sorry I mean't puff from the renewed gladiator session at the herc emergency bearpit. How's it going now ... looks like ... paper ... scissors ... rock ...
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Cheers Muffinman
Showing my age a bit but, to quote "Heimi" from Get Smart:
"If he'd only used PPRuNe for GOOD, instead of Evil"
So I try to give some good tips if I can (not so much over the past few months, obviously)
I didn't have much to add to FTDK, so gave a thumbs up!
DIVOSH!
"If he'd only used PPRuNe for GOOD, instead of Evil"
So I try to give some good tips if I can (not so much over the past few months, obviously)
I didn't have much to add to FTDK, so gave a thumbs up!
DIVOSH!
