Huge circuits
Join Date: May 2004
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Delta 7 said:
Errm, what??? Is it just me?
much less lift than in level flight?
I thought lift was dependent on speed squared, but in a bank the component of lift resolved vertically is proportional to the cosine of the bank angle...
Thus, try flying at 90 degrees bank and maintaining straight and level...
I can't help feeling the chap who "set you straight" would have been home, home on the range.
One day I decided to have a chat to one of these guys to make a suggestion about not doing steep (ie 45 degrees angle of bank) gliding turns from really close downwind straight onto the numbers. He set me straight by confidently telling me how in a steep gliding turn the aircraft has to generate much, much less lift than in level flight and that reduced the chance of a stall, particularly in a fully loaded Cessna single.
"Has to generate"
I thought lift was dependent on speed squared, but in a bank the component of lift resolved vertically is proportional to the cosine of the bank angle...
Thus, try flying at 90 degrees bank and maintaining straight and level...
I can't help feeling the chap who "set you straight" would have been home, home on the range.
<thread drift>
...only if you assume it's just the wing that's producing lift
</thread drift>
I thought lift was dependent on speed squared, but in a bank the component of lift resolved vertically is proportional to the cosine of the bank angle...
Thus, try flying at 90 degrees bank and maintaining straight and level...
Thus, try flying at 90 degrees bank and maintaining straight and level...
</thread drift>
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<thread drift>
Quote:
...only if you assume it's just the wing that's producing lift
</thread drift>
Quote:
I thought lift was dependent on speed squared, but in a bank the component of lift resolved vertically is proportional to the cosine of the bank angle...
Thus, try flying at 90 degrees bank and maintaining straight and level...
Thus, try flying at 90 degrees bank and maintaining straight and level...
</thread drift>
VHCU
Wonder if there is a direct correlation between size of circuit to average time to send solo. Bet these guys do not send students on their own until way past twenty hours.
Wonder if there is a direct correlation between size of circuit to average time to send solo. Bet these guys do not send students on their own until way past twenty hours
There is also no shortage of anecdotal evidence from students that unfortunately some instructors want the hours and the money and if true, huge circuits come into the equation. I recall observing one C172 at Point Cook conducting wide circuits including extraordinary long downwind legs. When later questioned, the grade 3 instructor (now an airline captain) said he just wanted to give the student "more time to settle down." It was not a valid reason because if the student was that bad that he needed "settling down", it suggests he was being introduced to circuits before he was competent to cope.
I am sure in the Cessna Flight Manual it actually specifies a recommended distance for the downwind leg. I am pretty sure it says 1nm spacing from the runway.
Lack of wind awareness is more often than not the major contributor to the size of the circuit. There have been times at YPJT where you would turn downwind at the correct place, then watch someone slowly drift about another 2nm south whilst on downwind. Hence they then try to set up a descent of 500' over 3nm to turn final at the right spot. Try staying behind that and within the CTR
Lack of wind awareness is more often than not the major contributor to the size of the circuit. There have been times at YPJT where you would turn downwind at the correct place, then watch someone slowly drift about another 2nm south whilst on downwind. Hence they then try to set up a descent of 500' over 3nm to turn final at the right spot. Try staying behind that and within the CTR
Join Date: Apr 2003
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You could just fly at an airfield that has a military firing range and associated dangerzone next door, along with a paranoid instructor who reminds you almost every circuit not to drift wide 
But seriously, correct circuit spacing has always been something that my instructors have reiterated throught my (somewhat extended) training
I think the biggest wake-up call I ever had was probably the afternoon I went for a visit up the tower at NZPM and watched the 'shapes' (I dont feel comfortable calling them circuits
) that some of the other students were flying on the radar screen...
But seriously, correct circuit spacing has always been something that my instructors have reiterated throught my (somewhat extended) training
I think the biggest wake-up call I ever had was probably the afternoon I went for a visit up the tower at NZPM and watched the 'shapes' (I dont feel comfortable calling them circuits
) that some of the other students were flying on the radar screen...
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gotta agree that wide circuits are becoming a bigger problem then they used to, especially at bankstown.
something else to watch out for is preceeding traffic flying excessively long downwind legs. in a way this prob is more difficult for following traffic to deal with as you dont become aware of it till preceeding traffic is way past normal base position. following wide aircraft is relatively easy - you can anticipate the need to slow down before your number one has even turned downwind. (not that wide circuits are a good thing).
and there is no need for instructors to widen/extend circuits for new students for so many reasons. among them, if the student cant handle the work load, they shouldnt be in the circuit yet... theres not much point teaching a method of flying circuits that will need to be re taught.
something else to watch out for is preceeding traffic flying excessively long downwind legs. in a way this prob is more difficult for following traffic to deal with as you dont become aware of it till preceeding traffic is way past normal base position. following wide aircraft is relatively easy - you can anticipate the need to slow down before your number one has even turned downwind. (not that wide circuits are a good thing).
and there is no need for instructors to widen/extend circuits for new students for so many reasons. among them, if the student cant handle the work load, they shouldnt be in the circuit yet... theres not much point teaching a method of flying circuits that will need to be re taught.
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so my instructor was right to teach me that all circuits, in whatever aircraft, should be conducted so you are always within gliding distance of the field?? (except of course on Upwind)
When I was instructing at Jandakot a long time ago, it was suggested by CASA (CAA back then) examiners that if the aircraft ahead of us did a long downwind we should "go around from base".
The circuits had been getting very long so I tried it a couple of times one day. I advised the tower "going around from base" and flew a level base then an upwind. On downwind I called for a touch and go, to which Mardy in the the tower said "make a full stop landing and vacate the runway".
I never saw my student again. The tower put in an incident report and when CASA got hold of it they rang the Aero Club to find out who the instructor was to congratulate me.
I never did that again.
The circuits had been getting very long so I tried it a couple of times one day. I advised the tower "going around from base" and flew a level base then an upwind. On downwind I called for a touch and go, to which Mardy in the the tower said "make a full stop landing and vacate the runway".
I never saw my student again. The tower put in an incident report and when CASA got hold of it they rang the Aero Club to find out who the instructor was to congratulate me.
I never did that again.
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I am sure in the Cessna Flight Manual it actually specifies a recommended distance for the downwind leg. I am pretty sure it says 1nm spacing from the runway
You may well see advice (in other words the CFI's pet barrow to push) in your local company operations manual as you can put whatever you like in that as long as it doesn't contravene the regulations.
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Bankstownboy
I see you are 16 years old,
I thought by now you would have worked out the difference between left and right. 11L is for coming and going at YSBK.
11R is for circuits, what you are saying is that aircraft are crossing TWO active runways at Bankstown, I don't think so Charlie Brown. The last time that happened there was a warrior with 4 POB that didn't make it home.
Kickatinalong.
I thought by now you would have worked out the difference between left and right. 11L is for coming and going at YSBK. 11R is for circuits, what you are saying is that aircraft are crossing TWO active runways at Bankstown, I don't think so Charlie Brown. The last time that happened there was a warrior with 4 POB that didn't make it home.
Kickatinalong.
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Depends where you go...
My instructor has cut some lessons short coz he thought it was not worth staying up and wasting time... he even suggested using the time going from airfield to training area (and back again) as a chance to throw on the foggles and start cutting into the instrument hours requirement, as otherwise its just wasted time
My instructor has cut some lessons short coz he thought it was not worth staying up and wasting time... he even suggested using the time going from airfield to training area (and back again) as a chance to throw on the foggles and start cutting into the instrument hours requirement, as otherwise its just wasted time